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Who has had their mind changed on gun control?[W:232]

CRUE CAB

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From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.

I have changed my mind on gun control, we need less of it.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I have changed my mind on gun control, we need less of it.

I have not changed my mind on gun control - I also agree we need less of it. That is, until guns have a sentient mind of their own ... then I'll start changing my mind.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Does anyone ever change their minds about any issue based on discussions on internet forums?
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I've fluctuated back and forth a few times. I've yet to see anything appealing about loosening the controls. [inb4flames]
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.

From the start, I've felt there's really only 3 issues that were even discussion worthy: hi cap clips, assault rifle bans, and background check reform. However I was admittedly ignorant of most arguments from either side. Upon educating myself, I've decided:

Hi cap clip bans - Emotionally driven, empty response to newtown

Assault rifle bans - Emotionally driven empty response to newtown, although I do see a bit of logic here, the effect on gun crime would be nil.

Background check reform - After learning quite a bit on gun shows and the supposed loophole .... things aren't nearly as bad as they're made out to be. Apparently most gun shows only allow licensed dealers. While I'd still like to see some sort of legislation banning private sales at shows or requiring them to obtain a BGC, this is already being taken care of for the most part by show organizers.

Question: currently, do mental illnesses throw a red flag on BGCs or is it just criminal record based?
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

My views have certainly changed. I used to be pretty apathetic about guns. But then I heard what a lot of the pro gun crowd had to say, and it's pretty heinous stuff. A lot of selective ignorance, a frightening eagerness to kill people, and complete disregard for the safety or rights of others. That there are people who actually believe that your rights begin and end at the barrel of a gun, and seem to be looking forward to some kind of glorious armed revolution against the US government (which essentially comes down to overthrowing the constitution, killing all the left wingers - including me -, and putting the Articles of Confederation back)... these people do not understand America. They don't like America. That they have political power in America is terrifying.

The guy who brings his gun into a grocery store and wonders why everyone else is frightened is a serious problem. The people who wanted to march through Washington DC with their guns and no regard for how the people who live there might feel about an angry militia occupying their home... they're a serious problem. These are people who see enemies everywhere among the people of their own country, and who think that coexistence is impossible and that it really is reasonable to kill people if they want a higher tax rate and health benefits. That's not civilized behavior, and it is so contrary to the principles of free election, free speech, and equality that this country is all about that I don't know what country or culture these people want to live in, but it is very clearly not this one.

I don't want those people having lethal power over me. They prove time and time again that they're hardly worthy of that power, and that they wouldn't know how to wield it responsibly.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

My views have certainly changed. I used to be pretty apathetic about guns. But then I heard what a lot of the pro gun crowd had to say, and it's pretty heinous stuff. A lot of selective ignorance, a frightening eagerness to kill people, and complete disregard for the safety or rights of others. That there are people who actually believe that your rights begin and end at the barrel of a gun, and seem to be looking forward to some kind of glorious armed revolution against the US government (which essentially comes down to overthrowing the constitution, killing all the left wingers - including me -, and putting the Articles of Confederation back)... these people do not understand America. They don't like America. That they have political power in America is terrifying.

The guy who brings his gun into a grocery store and wonders why everyone else is frightened is a serious problem. The people who wanted to march through Washington DC with their guns and no regard for how the people who live there might feel about an angry militia occupying their home... they're a serious problem. These are people who see enemies everywhere among the people of their own country, and who think that coexistence is impossible and that it really is reasonable to kill people if they want a higher tax rate and health benefits. That's not civilized behavior, and it is so contrary to the principles of free election, free speech, and equality that this country is all about that I don't know what country or culture these people want to live in, but it is very clearly not this one.

I don't want those people having lethal power over me. They prove time and time again that they're hardly worthy of that power, and that they wouldn't know how to wield it responsibly.

No one has shown a eagerness to kill anyone, but a willingness if push comes to shove and the gun owner or his family is threatend.
No one is frightened about the CCW holder in the grocery store, its the crimnal that puts a shot gun in the clerks face is what they are frightened of. If things go sideways, the CCW may be in a position to save a life or two.
I may have nothing more than a pocket knife on me at any one time. Is that having "lethal power" over you. Or what if I am much larger and in better shape than you?
Your fear is unwarrented.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.

I feel the exact same way when I read the Jehovah's Witness style missionary preaching that right libertarians engage in on these sites in a pathetic attempt to spread their faux ideology to the unwitting and naive. All it has done is make me more convinced than ever that right libertarianism is a reeking rancid cancer on the ass of the body politic that must be lanced or it will kill the entire host. Nearly every post a right libertarian makes only serves to underline that conclusion.

So I know what you mean.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
I'd suggest your problem (and you're far from alone) is that you’re defining the "debate" in binary terms like "pro" and "anti" gun control. Nobody is going to give you a reason to be "pro gun control" because it's a phase that doesn't really mean anything (or means whatever you've decided it means, which is not the same thing they've decided it means).

The issues, social policy and legislation surrounding the topic of civilian gun ownership are diverse and changeable. To pretend that it's a simple two-sided argument is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

"Gun Control" is a misnomer. I personally am VERY MUCH in favor of gun control and not just the kind that requires a trained and practiced hand. No...I believe in keeping the guns from violent felons and punishing the **** out of anyone that either sells or uses firearms illegally. To me...THAT is "gun control". Unfortunately, there is an "anti-gun" population who ignore the reality and facts regarding who is actually committing the VAST VAST majority of all violent crimes in this country and lack the balls to attack the REAL problem.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I'd suggest your problem (and you're far from alone) is that you’re defining the "debate" in binary terms like "pro" and "anti" gun control. Nobody is going to give you a reason to be "pro gun control" because it's a phase that doesn't really mean anything (or means whatever you've decided it means, which is not the same thing they've decided it means).

The issues, social policy and legislation surrounding the topic of civilian gun ownership are diverse and changeable. To pretend that it's a simple two-sided argument is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
Its a two sided argument. Either you accept and understand that civilians in this nation have a right to own a firearm. Or you wish to infringe on said right either by stricter laws or removing firearms from our society.
The more people like to muddy the water, the less gets done.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.

I've changed - I've realized the big mistake of going along with perceived "compromises" when there never was and still isn't any. So now I went from maybe a little restriction to absolutely no more.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

On the one hand, people should have a right to defend themselves. Moreover, gun "control" does not really control the guns that are most dangerous, i.e., the ones in the hands of nutters and criminals.

On the other hand, the idea that a militia of some sort armed with handguns and hunting rifles, or even with scary looking assault rifles that so many want to ban, is going to carry out a successful revolution against the federal government is simply laughable. When the Second Amendment was written, such a revolution would have been possible. In the 21st. century, it simply isn't going to happen.

better to carry out a revolution at the ballot box.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.

Many people cannot deal with the true aspects of logic and rights. Most people break down and some point and defer to appeal to emotion and appeal to authority for arguments. It's the rare man who can truly understand the dangers and responsibilities of Freedom and earnestly promote and try to move towards them.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

On the one hand, people should have a right to defend themselves. Moreover, gun "control" does not really control the guns that are most dangerous, i.e., the ones in the hands of nutters and criminals.

On the other hand, the idea that a militia of some sort armed with handguns and hunting rifles, or even with scary looking assault rifles that so many want to ban, is going to carry out a successful revolution against the federal government is simply laughable. When the Second Amendment was written, such a revolution would have been possible. In the 21st. century, it simply isn't going to happen.

better to carry out a revolution at the ballot box.

And yet in over 10 years we haven't been able to beat the lesser armed terrorists during the course of our Infinity War. But mostly your argument points towards the removal of restrictions, not piling higher and deeper.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

And yet in over 10 years we haven't been able to beat the lesser armed terrorists during the course of our Infinity War. But mostly your argument points towards the removal of restrictions, not piling higher and deeper.

Exactly, piling restrictions "higher and deeper" isn't going to be effective and will simply be one more infringement on liberty.

as for not being able to defeat the armed terrorists, they stand no chance of being able to overthrow the government.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Exactly, piling restrictions "higher and deeper" isn't going to be effective and will simply be one more infringement on liberty.

as for not being able to defeat the armed terrorists, they stand no chance of being able to overthrow the government.

Not ours...but they're not fighting here. Obviously they can and have done in there, in the past and likely in the future. But Americans wouldn't fight a revolution over there, we would have to fight it in America. Our military cannot beat a group of lesser armed militia in a foreign country, what chance do you think they'd have once they have to level their guns at their own brothers and sisters? It would be even more difficult for our military to intervene in an American revolt than it would be to succeed in a foreign country. And when's the last time we did the latter?
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From internet forums that do nothing but race to the bottom of the issue.
I am on a few forums and no one ever has given me a valid reason to be pro gun control.
And when you speak out any logic or rights. The antis just cant deal with it.

I'm white and grew up Christian in the very deepest part of the Deep South - that in and of itself pretty much guarantees that one grew up as a strong conservative...and I certainly did (including growing up with guns). For the first ten years of my military service I continued to be a strong conservative.

But you know what? When I traveled overseas, I found out just how much I had to unlearn. One of the things I had to unlearn was that NO, strong gun control laws are not any indication of tyranny - in fact, I felt MUCH safer walking around in Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Dubai, South Korea, and even poor parts of Bangkok and Manila than I ever did walking around in American cities...

...and all these places have much stronger gun control than we do.

It's a whole different feeling, walking around even the poorer parts of a city but not having to worry too much about being approached by some idiot with a gun. You don't get that feeling here in America - it's a feeling of real freedom. Here in America, you walk around watching for threats from this or that person - "that person's got a bulge in his jacket pocket, the other person's wearing a hoodie, and the guy over there looks like an ex-con". But Over There one walks around without having to worry about other people - you're not having to watch so much for threats.

That's a real freedom that you get Over There - the freedom to relax a bit, to keep from having to watch almost every person one as a possible threat. It's a really, really nice feeling.

THAT is why this white retired military Southerner is all for gun control.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I'm white and grew up Christian in the very deepest part of the Deep South - that in and of itself pretty much guarantees that one grew up as a strong conservative...and I certainly did (including growing up with guns). For the first ten years of my military service I continued to be a strong conservative.

But you know what? When I traveled overseas, I found out just how much I had to unlearn. One of the things I had to unlearn was that NO, strong gun control laws are not any indication of tyranny - in fact, I felt MUCH safer walking around in Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Dubai, South Korea, and even poor parts of Bangkok and Manila than I ever did walking around in American cities...

...and all these places have much stronger gun control than we do.

It's a whole different feeling, walking around even the poorer parts of a city but not having to worry too much about being approached by some idiot with a gun. You don't get that feeling here in America - it's a feeling of real freedom. Here in America, you walk around watching for threats from this or that person - "that person's got a bulge in his jacket pocket, the other person's wearing a hoodie, and the guy over there looks like an ex-con". But Over There one walks around without having to worry about other people - you're not having to watch so much for threats.

That's a real freedom that you get Over There - the freedom to relax a bit, to keep from having to watch almost every person one as a possible threat. It's a really, really nice feeling.

THAT is why this white retired military Southerner is all for gun control.
Well this isnt anyof those countries, thank god.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I'm white and grew up Christian in the very deepest part of the Deep South - that in and of itself pretty much guarantees that one grew up as a strong conservative...and I certainly did (including growing up with guns). For the first ten years of my military service I continued to be a strong conservative.

But you know what? When I traveled overseas, I found out just how much I had to unlearn. One of the things I had to unlearn was that NO, strong gun control laws are not any indication of tyranny - in fact, I felt MUCH safer walking around in Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Dubai, South Korea, and even poor parts of Bangkok and Manila than I ever did walking around in American cities...

...and all these places have much stronger gun control than we do.

It's a whole different feeling, walking around even the poorer parts of a city but not having to worry too much about being approached by some idiot with a gun. You don't get that feeling here in America - it's a feeling of real freedom. Here in America, you walk around watching for threats from this or that person - "that person's got a bulge in his jacket pocket, the other person's wearing a hoodie, and the guy over there looks like an ex-con". But Over There one walks around without having to worry about other people - you're not having to watch so much for threats.

That's a real freedom that you get Over There - the freedom to relax a bit, to keep from having to watch almost every person one as a possible threat. It's a really, really nice feeling.

THAT is why this white retired military Southerner is all for gun control.

I think Benjamin Franklin would be the best one to respond to your claims.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

From the start, I've felt there's really only 3 issues that were even discussion worthy: hi cap clips, assault rifle bans, and background check reform. However I was admittedly ignorant of most arguments from either side. Upon educating myself, I've decided:

Hi cap clip bans - Emotionally driven, empty response to newtown
I respect your open mindedness. One thing that drives me up the wall is the "clip" thing, though I realize popular culture is to blame. The reason it drives me nuts is because a magazine and clip are two different things, a magazine is the actual "bullet well", they can be internal or external, a clip is actually a metal clip used in some internal magazine weapons(such as the M1 Garand, and some bolt action hunting rifles) to align the bullets for a proper fit within the internal magazine.

Assault rifle bans - Emotionally driven empty response to newtown, although I do see a bit of logic here, the effect on gun crime would be nil.
Most assault rifles are useless in a crime unless it's something gang related, to "send a message". The reason the NFA had a chance of passing back in FDR's day was because the organized syndicates were using Tommy guns to kill in the streets, they could have done the same thing with a pistol execution style, but not in the public grand scale message a full auto execution could. Realistically, unless someone is caught in the "spray" a full auto is just a waste of ammo, 40 shots to hit the target one, maybe three times. The "Assault Weapons" bans were ridiculous, the term is legalese with no real application to actual firearms terminology, and all based on cosmetics.

Background check reform - After learning quite a bit on gun shows and the supposed loophole .... things aren't nearly as bad as they're made out to be. Apparently most gun shows only allow licensed dealers. While I'd still like to see some sort of legislation banning private sales at shows or requiring them to obtain a BGC, this is already being taken care of for the most part by show organizers.
Yeah. Definitely a gross exaggeration.

Question: currently, do mental illnesses throw a red flag on BGCs or is it just criminal record based?
Only for involuntary committal to a mental facility.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I've changed - I've realized the big mistake of going along with perceived "compromises" when there never was and still isn't any. So now I went from maybe a little restriction to absolutely no more.
Certain things are decent law in the gun debate, most are useless. In my opinion we maintain prohibitions upon violent felons(only) or restructure the justice system to lock them away for lengthy stretches. Instead of constantly adding unenforceable and frankly stupid laws, we should take a step back, read over every single law, and trim off what hasn't, won't, or can't work. I'm all for absolutely nailing a person who abuses a firearm to the wall legally, and for crimes like straw buying the penalties should hurt so badly for so long that only a complete idiot would ever engage in that behavior. Anything though should be based upon due process and never prior restraint.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

I think Benjamin Franklin would be the best one to respond to your claims.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

But Benjamin Franklin never had to walk around in a nation where there were 300 million guns, that had the largest prison population - in terms of both total population and percentage thereof - in the world.

In other words, just because a great person makes a platitude doesn't mean that platitude is right.
 
Re: Who has had their mind changed on gun control?

Well this isnt anyof those countries, thank god.

Problem is, you're apparently of the opinion that the only lessons we can learn from other nations are negative lessons, that other nations can't possibly teach us that there are some things that they do that are better than what we do. We've been on top since the worst wars in human history, and so we think that our way must be the best, that there's no positive lessons that other nations can teach us. The "American Way", "American exceptionalism" - what grand arrogance!

And that's one of the major things that felled Rome - they had been on top for so long that they didn't think anybody else had a better idea, a better way.
 
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