Who determines what's offensive? Coal miners at a pub, or offensive blackface?

TheParser · Jan 31, 2019

This is 2019.

We should all be careful not to unwittingly offend/embarrass people of various ethnicities.

If an African American went to that bar, I can understand why s/he might feel uncomfortable.

The bar owners should remove the image, I feel.

pinqy · Jan 31, 2019

TheParser said:
This is 2019.

We should all be careful not to unwittingly offend/embarrass people of various ethnicities.

By definition that’s impossible. Simple human decency, regardless of the year, is:
Don’t intentionally offend anyone.
If you unintentionally offend some, apologize, and learn why the person was offended.
If the offense was rational/justified, avoid it.

If an African American went to that bar, I can understand why s/he might feel uncomfortable.

You’re going to have to explain.
Blackface is offensive because it was intended to mock Blacks or unfairly represent them.
It is clearly rational to be offended by mockery.
But the coal miner picture is not mockery and has no connection to any mockery. So what is the offensive part? That it vaguely resembles something offensive to a particular individual?
That is irrational.

The bar owners should remove the image, I feel.

Did the bar owners do something wrong by putting the picture up in the first place?

pinqy · Jan 31, 2019

Deuce said:
"People are so easily offended these days," says a demographic that flipped their **** about two dudes they never met signing a legal contract

I actually do find it extremely offense that you judge and condemn people by their demographic group, making prejudiced assumptions.

TheParser · Jan 31, 2019

pinqy said:
Did the bar owners do something wrong by putting the picture up in the first place?

Absolutely NOT.

BUT hindsight is often correct.

There is so much ethnic unpleasantness nowadays that we must ALL be super sensitive to others' feelings.

That is why President Obama, for example, forbade the word "Oriental" in federal documents (instead of "Asian").
That is why many universities urge students not to wear sombreros on Cinco de Mayo.

Have a nice day!

pinqy · Jan 31, 2019

J

TheParser said:
Absolutely NOT.

BUT hindsight is often correct.

but not always

There is so much ethnic unpleasantness nowadays that we must ALL be super sensitive to others' feelings.

So if someone feels uncomfortable that a woman is wearing a short skirt, then the woman should change? I disagree.
Not all feelings are rational or should be catered to.

That is why President Obama, for example, forbade the word "Oriental" in federal documents (instead of "Asian").

With th exception of rugs, “oriental” has been commonly known as offensive for decades. Finding coal miners offensive is irrational.

That is why many universities urge students not to wear sombreros on Cinco de Mayo.

And what advice do they give for St Patrick’s Day?

RaleBulgarian · Jan 31, 2019

Rashaad Thomas is a professional victim looking for a villain. With so many real acts of bias/bigotry needing remedy, people like Thomas actually do more harm than good bitching about fake bogeymen.

trouble13 · Jan 31, 2019

Ahlevah said:
I don't think so. It's fairly common for restaurants in this country to decorate their establishments with all sorts of "stuff." In this instance, I don't think it really matters. If a photo like that makes people think, wherever it is, then it's worthwhile as something other than a decoration or prop. And who knows? Maybe keeping the curtain off of the idea that some working-class whites had little in the way of "white privilege," other than working long hours for peanuts when they weren't dying of black lung disease or in industrial accidents, is what some people find offensive. Rephrased a different way, the lives of some whites could be "nasty, brutish, and short," i.e. not much better than that of a slave, and that sort of shoots the button off of "white privilege" as a universal affliction of whites. If you don't believe me, try putting this photo on a t-shirt and wearing it to, say, the student union at U.C. Berkeley. It wouldn't take long to generate a reaction.

That's a rather cynical observation about how it contradicts the notion of white privilege. It's something that i had not considered. I had not really thought about it before but the images of white poverty do seem to be vanishing from the culture.

thank you for a thought provoking post

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trouble13 · Jan 31, 2019

uptower said:
I suppose a general consensus has to be reached that's broadly accepted by everyone. We all agree you can't drop an F-bomb in church after all.

But on the other hand we cannot dismiss anyone immediately for being offended at something we never expected to be offensive, or that the offended parties were too weak and disadvantaged to bring up before. At least hear them out, start the conversation, make some assessment and eventually everyone reaches a tentative agreement.

I get the feeling what the Tucker Carlsons of the world would like to make all offense 'subjective' (rather like the truth in their eyes) so they can therefore claim that offensive behavior or language is just an illusion on the victim's part and they can go back to using the N-word anytime they please.

I view it as a beauty is in the eye of the beholder kind of thing, meaning that it's all subjective to the individuals perspective.

Maybe the ancestors of the coal miners find it offensive that their hardships are being trivialized by their pictures being conflated with racism. It raises the question of their feelings being less important than other peoples feelings.

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Ahlevah · Jan 31, 2019

Master Debator said:
Ummm..... we each decide what is offensive for ourselves. That's how subjective feelings work....

Fine. Be offended. Just don't try to make other people conform to your worldview, especially when it's based on lunacy.

Omega Man · Jan 31, 2019

TheParser said:
This is 2019.

We should all be careful not to unwittingly offend/embarrass people of various ethnicities.

If an African American went to that bar, I can understand why s/he might feel uncomfortable.

The bar owners should remove the image, I feel.

And if the bar catered to working class people, should they still remove a picture which in no uncertain way depicts working class people?

OM

TheParser · Jan 31, 2019

Omega Man said:
And if the bar catered to working class people, should they still remove a picture which in no uncertain way depicts working class people?

OM

Yes, it should. Some of those working class people may include people of the (currently) minority ethnicity being discussed, who may feel uncomfortable with that image.

TheParser · Jan 31, 2019

pinqy said:
And what advice do they give for St Patrick’s Day?

You are a very intelligent person, so you know very well that this thread is discussing what may be offensive to (currently) minority ethnicities.

You know that Irish people are part of the (currently) majority ethnicity.

Omega Man · Jan 31, 2019

TheParser said:
Yes, it should. Some of those working class people may include people of the (currently) minority ethnicity being discussed, who may feel uncomfortable with that image.

But it doesn't depict blackface.

OM

uptower · Jan 31, 2019

trouble13 said:
I view it as a beauty is in the eye of the beholder kind of thing, meaning that it's all subjective to the individuals perspective.

Maybe the ancestors of the coal miners find it offensive that their hardships are being trivialized by their pictures being conflated with racism. It raises the question of their feelings being less important than other peoples feelings.

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Well that raises a new possibility: who's the bigger snowflake.

Manly pro-coal manly manly men from manly mountains doing manly work are worried about their manly way of life being trivialized all of a sudden, while they spent the last few years laughing and jeering - in a manly way of course - at all the soft city 'libtards' constantly worried about every other demographic's feelings getting hurt.

It's right, no demographic needs to be deliberately made fun of (as I did above, to make my point) but those who've more often than not been on the winning side of discrimination need to pick their battles.

Nickyjo · Jan 31, 2019

uptower said:
Well that raises a new possibility: who's the bigger snowflake.

Manly pro-coal manly manly men from manly mountains doing manly work are worried about their manly way of life being trivialized all of a sudden, while they spent the last few years laughing and jeering - in a manly way of course - at all the soft city 'libtards' constantly worried about every other demographic's feelings getting hurt.

It's right, no demographic needs to be deliberately made fun of (as I did above, to make my point) but those who've more often than not been on the winning side of discrimination need to pick their battles.

Your "who's the bigger snowflake" comment is on point. Of course it's silly to get offended at the photo as it seems to be harmless. But what is Carlson doing bringing this up? This mini-controversy is worthy of national broadcast attention? My presumption is that it fits Carlson's view that respect for the feelings of others is somehow a sign of weakness, and he will search hither and yon for absurdist examples that comfort some in his audience. It's sort of the equivalent of the also absurd big deal made when Melania sported high heels on her way to visit a hurricane site.

trouble13 · Jan 31, 2019

uptower said:
Well that raises a new possibility: who's the bigger snowflake.

Manly pro-coal manly manly men from manly mountains doing manly work are worried about their manly way of life being trivialized all of a sudden, while they spent the last few years laughing and jeering - in a manly way of course - at all the soft city 'libtards' constantly worried about every other demographic's feelings getting hurt.

It's right, no demographic needs to be deliberately made fun of (as I did above, to make my point) but those who've more often than not been on the winning side of discrimination need to pick their battles.

I'm not a fan of calling people snowflakes and can see how some may be offended by it but I would not try to ban people from using it or even selfcensor myself from using it if I felt it was applicable to the context of the situtation.

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lwf · Jan 31, 2019

Ahlevah said:
Saw this on Tucker Carlson's show tonight. Another example of just how far off the deep end some SJWs have dropped:

And why shouldn't it remain on the wall, Rashaad? It's part of history, idiot.

Welsh History Month: How the pub played a crucial role in working-class Welsh life

We're all offended by things we shouldn't rationally be offended by. It doesn't make any rational sense at all that a man going shirtless at the pool is inoffensive, but a woman going topless is offensive. But most of us were raised to be irrationally offended by that behavior. I'm not comparing these two situations, but I try to remember my own glass house before I throw stones at someone else's.

Ahlevah · Jan 31, 2019

trouble13 said:
That's a rather cynical observation about how it contradicts the notion of white privilege. It's something that i had not considered. I had not really thought about it before but the images of white poverty do seem to be vanishing from the culture.

thank you for a thought provoking post

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I'm very cynical of the modern social justice movement. Frankly, I view it as a threat to the social fabric of this country. A lot of this is being fueled by leftists/Marxists in academia who have a pretty jaundiced view of race and society. You can boil their philosophy down to a few basic principles: 1) the only thing that matters is power and who has it; 2) power is gained through any means necessary, including force; 3) the reward for power is "privilege"; right now, the folks at the top of the power heap are wealthy, white, and male (Notice the visceral reaction of the Left when Howard Schultz said if he runs for Prez he's going to do it as an independent. I hope he does); 4) "citizen" is just another word for "sheep"; sheep eat whatever those in power feed them, so use all organs available to counter it: academia, business, the arts and entertainment, books and media--everything. 5) agitate for change in the established order that places like-minded people in positions where they can carry it out. I think that about does it.

Ahlevah · Jan 31, 2019

lwf said:
We're all offended by things we shouldn't rationally be offended by. It doesn't make any rational sense at all that a man going shirtless at the pool is inoffensive, but a woman going topless is offensive. But most of us were raised to be irrationally offended by that behavior. I'm not comparing these two situations, but I try to remember my own glass house before I throw stones at someone else's.

Offended is one thing, but the author of the editorial said he felt "threatened" by the picture of white coal miners. That isn't rational, and his explanation as to why he felt threatened seemed disingenuous. On the other hand, I can see how anything that undercuts the historical "white privilege and power" worldview he's promulgating could be a problem to the point of editorializing about it.

Black bodies swing in the southern breeze
Children cut from stomachs hanging
Blood on the roots, blood on the leaves

Protests walk through tired cities
No justice no peace for the world seeing
Black bodies swing in the southern breeze

From their twisted mouth, I heard them plead
“My hands are up, stop shooting”
Blood on his hands blood on his sleeves

Scent of magnolias fresh and sweet
From the sun rotting, from trees dropping
Black bodies sing in the southern breeze

Strange bodied fruit on strange bloody trees
No more weeping, no more wailing
Blood on the roots blood on the leaves

A time to be born, a time for dying
A time to plant, a time to be freed
Black bodies swing in the southern breeze
Blood on the roots blood on the leaves

A Time To Be Freed by Rashaad Thomas @ HEArt Online

veritas1 · Jan 31, 2019

Anyone being offended by coalminers with coal dust on their faces, is an idiot, a real fool. My advice is to not patronize that establishment anymore or face the other direction or get help.

Ahlevah · Jan 31, 2019

veritas1 said:
Anyone being offended by coalminers with coal dust on their faces, is an idiot, a real fool.

The academic world these days is populated with like-minded fools. :lol: He's a Rising Stars Writers Conference Fellow at Arizona State University's Virginia G. Piper Center for Creative Writing. He's also an instructor.

https://piper.asu.edu/conference/fellows/2019/rashaad-thomas

trouble13 · Jan 31, 2019

Ahlevah said:
I'm very cynical of the modern social justice movement. Frankly, I view it as a threat to the social fabric of this country. A lot of this is being fueled by leftists/Marxists in academia who have a pretty jaundiced view of race and society. You can boil their philosophy down to a few basic principles: 1) the only thing that matters is power and who has it; 2) power is gained through any means necessary, including force; 3) the reward for power is "privilege"; right now, the folks at the top of the power heap are wealthy, white, and male (Notice the visceral reaction of the Left when Howard Schultz said if he runs for Prez he's going to do it as an independent. I hope he does); 4) "citizen" is just another word for "sheep"; sheep eat whatever those in power feed them, so use all organs available to counter it: academia, business, the arts and entertainment, books and media--everything. 5) agitate for change in the established order that places like-minded people in positions where they can carry it out. I think that about does it.

I dont disagree with anything you posted and could take some of it even further than you did.

Eventually leftists are gonna self reflect and have their come to jesus moment. When that happens I welcome them into the fold. Hanging on to animosity onlyvhinders the healing process

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SonOfDaedalus · Jan 31, 2019

trouble13 said:
That's a rather cynical observation about how it contradicts the notion of white privilege. It's something that i had not considered. I had not really thought about it before but the images of white poverty do seem to be vanishing from the culture.

thank you for a thought provoking post

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Let me try to stimulate more thought. How does a pre-Civil Rights picture of poor Whites contradict the notion of White privilege? Are you saying that White coal miners didn't have more privileges than Blacks?

I think every rational person admits that White privilege used to exist before Civil Rights. The only question is to what extent does it still linger?

SonOfDaedalus · Jan 31, 2019

Ahlevah said:
You can boil their philosophy down to a few basic principles: 1) the only thing that matters is power and who has it; 2) power is gained through any means necessary, including force; 3) the reward for power is "privilege"; right now, the folks at the top of the power heap are wealthy, white, and male (Notice the visceral reaction of the Left when Howard Schultz said if he runs for Prez he's going to do it as an independent. I hope he does); 4) "citizen" is just another word for "sheep"; sheep eat whatever those in power feed them, so use all organs available to counter it: academia, business, the arts and entertainment, books and media--everything. 5) agitate for change in the established order that places like-minded people in positions where they can carry it out. I think that about does it.

You call it "boiling their philosophy down." I call it stuffing a straw man with a lot of nonsense. Do you think putting words in your opponents mouth is a proper way of discussing issues?

And what is the social justice movement? Can you name me one of its leaders?

veritas1 · Jan 31, 2019

Ahlevah said:
I'm very cynical of the modern social justice movement. Frankly, I view it as a threat to the social fabric of this country. A lot of this is being fueled by leftists/Marxists in academia who have a pretty jaundiced view of race and society. You can boil their philosophy down to a few basic principles: 1) the only thing that matters is power and who has it; 2) power is gained through any means necessary, including force; 3) the reward for power is "privilege"; right now, the folks at the top of the power heap are wealthy, white, and male (Notice the visceral reaction of the Left when Howard Schultz said if he runs for Prez he's going to do it as an independent. I hope he does); 4) "citizen" is just another word for "sheep"; sheep eat whatever those in power feed them, so use all organs available to counter it: academia, business, the arts and entertainment, books and media--everything. 5) agitate for change in the established order that places like-minded people in positions where they can carry it out. I think that about does it.

Excellent synopsis. Plus, we must always keep in mind that those who bleat the loudest about "compassion" usually have the least. Witness the abortion on delivery day advocates. I have little doubt that the left would run roughshod over all our liberties were they given the power to do so, starting with stealing our wealth, which amounts to stealing our freedom. If they ever somehow got absolute power, I doubt any conservative worth the name could count on his personal safety, either.

Who determines what's offensive? Coal miners at a pub, or offensive blackface?

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