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Who betrayed Anne Frank? The ID of a Possible Betrayer.

This seems like the historical equivalent of social media dogpiling some rando following a terrorist attack. Although in this case the dude isn't alive to defend himself.
 
Roadvirus said:
www.bbc.com

Anne Frank betrayal suspect identified after 77 years

A new investigation identifies a suspect who may have told the Nazis about the Jewish diarist's hideout.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Dude allegedly gave them up to the Nazis just to save his own ass.
Click to expand...

I don't think any of us should express certainty about what we would do if we had to pick between two options, with no possible "I'd do this instead. . . "

The answer is clear if it's just you or just them. A person who deserves the breath he draws does not betray a child to save their hide. But...



But what if one group will necessarily die as a result of your choice: Your wife and children. Or someone else's wife and children.

The article says: "A team including an ex-FBI agent said Arnold van den Bergh, a Jewish figure in Amsterdam, probably "gave up" the Franks to save his own family. . ."When van den Bergh lost all his series of protections exempting him from having to go to the camps, he had to provide something valuable to the Nazis that he's had contact with to let him and his wife at that time stay safe," former FBI agent Vince Pankoke told CBS 60 Minutes."

Another indicates both families had children: "Arnold van den Bergh was a prominent Jewish businessman with a wife and kids in Amsterdam."



I wouldn't dare say what I would do in such a situation. Knowing myself, I'm not the sort to sit, wait, and hope. I'd do everything in my power (while not getting anyone else killed) to get my wife and child out. And then... and then I'd have to decide whether my duty to my people compels me to stay in fight in some hopeless resistance, or whether my duty to my son requires me to flee with them.

I often think to myself "he's still so young, so helpless. My duty is absolute". But what of my people? Their children? I..... don't know.

I don't think I could bring myself to betray another family, even if I wanted to. But I always make a point of not swearing what I would do in situations so far beyond anything I've faced. Everyone has moments of weakness. Might I give in and do it? I can't swear there is no possibility. I'd hate myself eternally and probably ruin my own family, drowning myself in something to keep guilt at bay. It'd probably be an even worse outcome than simply taking our chances. I certainly hope against hope I would not betray.
 
Roadvirus said:
www.bbc.com

Anne Frank betrayal suspect identified after 77 years

A new investigation identifies a suspect who may have told the Nazis about the Jewish diarist's hideout.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Dude allegedly gave them up to the Nazis just to save his own ass.
Click to expand...
The case against the man is flimsy at best. Ronald Leopold, director of the Anne Frank foundation, says that there has to be more investigation into the theory that Anne Frank was betrayed by the Jewish notary Arnold van den Bergh. Leopold said "You have to be very careful if you want to send someone into history as the man who betrayed Anne Frank if you don't have 100% of 200% certainty of that claim". Leopold says that the investigation was good and precise but according to him major puzzle pieces are still missing.

Investigator Erik Somers, of the NIOD (Netherlands Institute of war, genocide and holocaust studies) who was involved in the investigation in the beginning, does not think the conclusions are convincing. "I see a lot of assumptions and few hard facts" says Somers. He accuses the investigators of tunnel vision. Somers says "I get the feeling that they went out of their way to produce arguments that the note was the ultimate piece of evidence, instead of going into the investigation with an open mind".

The Dutch historian, who did a lot of investigation/study into the Jewish council, points to the fact that nothing was even proven that the Jewish council had a list of homes in which Jews were being hidden away. The investigation team just assumes that van den Bergh who had connections to high level German functionaries, had access to a list of hidden Jews, which he could use as a life insurance if need be.

Also regarding the motive, according to Somers, the evidence for that is flimsy. Van den Bergh was a well to do man, a powerful man who moved into the art circles. There are other ways he could have used his art and wealth to make himself safe from deportation. All in all, according to Somers, he finds the conclusion, which is massively proclaimed in a book by a Canadian writer a bit "over the top bordering on horny for fame/notoriety".

It does not mean he is not happy with someone looking at this with fresh eyes, it was a wide, multi disciplinary team who extensively looked into the case. But even with all the energy and time that was invested into the project, the evidence remains flimsy. It might be frustrating but the most important conclusion you can make is that the true story will forever be a mystery. Everything of evidence was rifled through, all the documents were studied but THE evidence for what happened just does not exist


Translation of a Dutch article in the Algemeen Dagblad https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/coldca...isch-opgezet-maar-flinterdun-bewijs~adfdd28e/
 
Mr Person said:
I don't think any of us should express certainty about what we would do if we had to pick between two options, with no possible "I'd do this instead. . . "

The answer is clear if it's just you or just them. A person who deserves the breath he draws does not betray a child to save their hide. But...



But what if one group will necessarily die as a result of your choice: Your wife and children. Or someone else's wife and children.

The article says: "A team including an ex-FBI agent said Arnold van den Bergh, a Jewish figure in Amsterdam, probably "gave up" the Franks to save his own family. . ."When van den Bergh lost all his series of protections exempting him from having to go to the camps, he had to provide something valuable to the Nazis that he's had contact with to let him and his wife at that time stay safe," former FBI agent Vince Pankoke told CBS 60 Minutes."

Another indicates both families had children: "Arnold van den Bergh was a prominent Jewish businessman with a wife and kids in Amsterdam."



I wouldn't dare say what I would do in such a situation. Knowing myself, I'm not the sort to sit, wait, and hope. I'd do everything in my power (while not getting anyone else killed) to get my wife and child out. And then... and then I'd have to decide whether my duty to my people compels me to stay in fight in some hopeless resistance, or whether my duty to my son requires me to flee with them.

I often think to myself "he's still so young, so helpless. My duty is absolute". But what of my people? Their children? I..... don't know.

I don't think I could bring myself to betray another family, even if I wanted to. But I always make a point of not swearing what I would do in situations so far beyond anything I've faced. Everyone has moments of weakness. Might I give in and do it? I can't swear there is no possibility. I'd hate myself eternally and probably ruin my own family, drowning myself in something to keep guilt at bay. It'd probably be an even worse outcome than simply taking our chances. I certainly hope against hope I would not betray.
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There have been several named as the source for the betrayal, stockroom manager Willem van Maaren, Nelly Voskuijl (sister of Bep) who could have betrayed them as she was a nazi collaborator. The Anne Frank house has published new research in 2016 that stated that there were no betrayers but that ration card fraud could have been the reason of the raid on the Anne Frank house.
 
Peter King said:
There have been several named as the source for the betrayal, stockroom manager Willem van Maaren, Nelly Voskuijl (sister of Bep) who could have betrayed them as she was a nazi collaborator. The Anne Frank house has published new research in 2016 that stated that there were no betrayers but that ration card fraud could have been the reason of the raid on the Anne Frank house.
Click to expand...

I understand.

I was hoping to possibly nudge the thread a little over to a more interesting moral question/debate.

These are some of the things my mind won't shut up about. What ultimately makes people tick, deepest down? How far does moral blame extend? How much can I honestly evaluate my possible reactions, my actions? What is the balance of duties one owes?
 
In a similar vein, the novel, the Good German, which is quite excellent, features the trail of a Jewish woman who pointed out Jews to the Nazis. Her lawyer pointed about that those trying her were no less guilty - one who testified against her was a policeman who was charged with arrested them.

When everyone is guilty, no one is guilty.
 
Mr Person said:
I understand.

I was hoping to possibly nudge the thread a little over to a more interesting moral question/debate.

These are some of the things my mind won't shut up about. What ultimately makes people tick, deepest down? How far does moral blame extend? How much can I honestly evaluate my possible reactions, my actions? What is the balance of duties one owes?
Click to expand...
Well the issue is that the Jews in the Netherlands were easily found, we have the French to thank for that. Our basic government administration used to have everybody's address, birth information and sadly it also had the religious information of every person on the books. So the Germans just needed to look through the administration and they knew every single Jew and where they lived.

And the Dutch Jews worked with the Germans, who knows they thought that this would secure the health of the Jews in the Netherlands but sadly no, they kinda delivered them right into the hands of the concentration camps.
 
Peter King said:
Well the issue is that the Jews in the Netherlands were easily found, we have the French to thank for that. Our basic government administration used to have everybody's address, birth information and sadly it also had the religious information of every person on the books. So the Germans just needed to look through the administration and they knew every single Jew and where they lived.

And the Dutch Jews worked with the Germans, who knows they thought that this would secure the health of the Jews in the Netherlands but sadly no, they kinda delivered them right into the hands of the concentration camps.
Click to expand...

Right. I was focused more on the moral questions regarding betrayal and what is being saved vs. what is being betrayed.

🤷


A disturbing subject, no doubt....
 
Mr Person said:
Right. I was focused more on the moral questions regarding betrayal and what is being saved vs. what is being betrayed.

🤷


A disturbing subject, no doubt....
Click to expand...
No doubt, and luckily there were 28 thousand people (about 1/5th of all Jews) had been hidden by regular Dutch people. In total about between 300 and 330 thousand people were hiding away in regular people's homes. And the most difficult things that needed to be done were getting coupon books for food rationing. That meant robbing city hall for blank identification papers and Germans for getting their hands on food rationing books.

And then you had to be aware that anyone could be betraying you and the punishment for hiding Jews or resistance fighters was concentration camps.

And a lot of these traitors were so scared by the news that the Americans were coming that they fled on something we call "dolle dinsdag" aka crazy mad Tuesday. In which all kinds of traitors fled out of pure fear. After the war ended there were unspeakable crimes committed against what people called traitors, collaborators and Moffen hoeren which is Dutch for German whores. These were girls who had slept with German soldiers. Their hairs were shaved off and they were hounded by the public. It was disgraceful.
 
Peter King said:
No doubt, and luckily there were 28 thousand people (about 1/5th of all Jews) had been hidden by regular Dutch people. In total about between 300 and 330 thousand people were hiding away in regular people's homes. And the most difficult things that needed to be done were getting coupon books for food rationing. That meant robbing city hall for blank identification papers and Germans for getting their hands on food rationing books.

And then you had to be aware that anyone could be betraying you and the punishment for hiding Jews or resistance fighters was concentration camps.

And a lot of these traitors were so scared by the news that the Americans were coming that they fled on something we call "dolle dinsdag" aka crazy mad Tuesday. In which all kinds of traitors fled out of pure fear. After the war ended there were unspeakable crimes committed against what people called traitors, collaborators and Moffen hoeren which is Dutch for German whores. These were girls who had slept with German soldiers. Their hairs were shaved off and they were hounded by the public. It was disgraceful.
Click to expand...

I don't find it disgraceful, I find it to be justice. Anyone who collaborates with the invading enemy of one's country, whether for profit or ideology, cannot expect to walk away when the war is over and just move along.

I was recently stunned to learn (after watching a movie, and, after I watch a movie based on a true story, because a movie is entertainment and cannot be believed, I researched the event) how many Dutch people supported and worked for the Nazis because they believed in their ideology. An amazing number. Now I don't know the population of Holland at the time so what percentage of the population supported the Nazis, it may be a small number per capita, but the number (sorry, I forget the figure) still stunned me as I was under the impression that the Dutch were almost all anti-Nazi. Is the research I did incorrect?
 
Mr Person said:
I understand.

I was hoping to possibly nudge the thread a little over to a more interesting moral question/debate.

These are some of the things my mind won't shut up about. What ultimately makes people tick, deepest down? How far does moral blame extend? How much can I honestly evaluate my possible reactions, my actions? What is the balance of duties one owes?
Click to expand...
That's the true horror of the Nazis--the horrible things they forced others to do to perpetuate their power. I ask myself the same question about everyone who worked in the camps or joined the Party. It was that or your family, and a terrible outcome for you, as well.

Would I sacrifice my son for someone else's child? Doubtful. If it came to that, my son would come first and like you, I'd drown in guilt, or be consumed in rage at the people who forced me into such a corner.
 
Mr Person said:
I understand.

I was hoping to possibly nudge the thread a little over to a more interesting moral question/debate.

These are some of the things my mind won't shut up about. What ultimately makes people tick, deepest down? How far does moral blame extend? How much can I honestly evaluate my possible reactions, my actions? What is the balance of duties one owes?
Click to expand...
Just a bit more information.. That book is being withdrawn from publican after a group of historians showed it's reasoning to be flawed

www.npr.org

A Dutch publisher is pulling an investigative book on who betrayed Anne Frank

A cold case team published what it called the "most likely scenario" of who betrayed the Jewish teen and her family. But a group of Dutch historians wrote an in-depth criticism of that work.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
 
RAMOSS said:
Just a bit more information.. That book is being withdrawn from publican after a group of historians showed it's reasoning to be flawed

www.npr.org

A Dutch publisher is pulling an investigative book on who betrayed Anne Frank

A cold case team published what it called the "most likely scenario" of who betrayed the Jewish teen and her family. But a group of Dutch historians wrote an in-depth criticism of that work.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
Click to expand...
Yeah...read about that today. I feel like an ass for hyping it up.
 
It's like Jack the Ripper. It's been so long and the ones involved long dead I doubt the mystery will ever be solved.
 
Roadvirus said:
Yeah...read about that today. I feel like an ass for hyping it up.
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It happens. It was hyped up to sell a book, and you got taken in.
 
If somebody ratted her family out to save their own lives,I really don't think any of us here have any grounds to stand in judgement of that. Those were horrific and terrifying times, people were all scared to death---even many German citizens.

Ironically, and as brutal as the Nazis were in the West (Holland, France, Belgium etc) the Nazis were far more brutal in Poland and the East. In Holland if a family was caught hiding Jews, the Gestapo would haul everyone in that home out into the street and hang or shoot them for hiding Jews, to make a lesson. In Poland if somebody hid Jews, the Gestapo would kill everyone in the entire village, including people who were not involved in hiding Jews.

There were many heroes who saved Jews, but like the Abolishiionists who saved slaves in this country, those kinds of heroes were the exception. Who among would be brave enough to risk our own wives and children to save strangers in light of that kind of Nazi terror threat?
 
Mr Person said:
I don't think any of us should express certainty about what we would do if we had to pick between two options,
Click to expand...
You take care of your children first, then wife, then mother, then sisters, then all children, then family, then women you don't know, men you don't know AND THEN anybody you can that will not lead to the death of any of the previous due to the Gestapo threatening your life..
 
Court Jester said:
If somebody ratted her family out to save their own lives,I really don't think any of us here have any grounds to stand in judgement of that. Those were horrific and terrifying times, people were all scared to death---even many German citizens.

Ironically, and as brutal as the Nazis were in the West (Holland, France, Belgium etc) the Nazis were far more brutal in Poland and the East. In Holland if a family was caught hiding Jews, the Gestapo would haul everyone in that home out into the street and hang or shoot them for hiding Jews, to make a lesson. In Poland if somebody hid Jews, the Gestapo would kill everyone in the entire village, including people who were not involved in hiding Jews.

There were many heroes who saved Jews, but like the Abolishiionists who saved slaves in this country, those kinds of heroes were the exception. Who among would be brave enough to risk our own wives and children to save strangers in light of that kind of Nazi terror threat?
Click to expand...
To save my own life if I knew my kids were safe and that I got to die in order to save children that I knew were there, like Anne, then I would.

Any other likely scenario? Not so sure.
 
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