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Whites suddenly abandon the idea of meritocracy

thinkforyoursel

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Remember all the weeping and wailing about grades, affirmative action and college entry requirements?
Remember how sure most whites are that every black student in a Ivy league University got there at the expense of some white kid?

Well looky..looky here!! Study shows when whites are pitted against their Asian counter-part ...guess what ....GRADES are suddenly not sssoo important!!

White definitions of merit and admissions change when they think about Asian Americans, study finds | Inside Higher Ed

Critics of affirmative action generally argue that the country would be better off with a meritocracy, typically defined as an admissions system where high school grades and standardized test scores are the key factors, applied in the same way to applicants of all races and ethnicities.

But what if they think they favor meritocracy but at some level actually have a flexible definition, depending on which groups would be helped by certain policies? Frank L. Samson, assistant professor of sociology at the University of Miami, thinks his new research findings suggest that the definition of meritocracy used by white people is far more fluid than many would admit, and that this fluidity results in white people favoring certain policies (and groups) over others.

Specifically, he found, in a survey of white California adults, they generally favor admissions policies that place a high priority on high school grade-point averages and standardized test scores. But when these white people are focused on the success of Asian-American students, their views change.:lamo

The white adults in the survey were also divided into two groups. Half were simply asked to assign the importance they thought various criteria should have in the admissions system of the University of California. The other half received a different prompt, one that noted that Asian Americans make up more than twice as many undergraduates proportionally in the UC system as they do in the population of the state.

When informed of that fact, the white adults favor a reduced role for grade and test scores in admissions -- apparently based on high achievement levels by Asian-American applicants. (Nationally, Asian average total scores on the three parts of the SAT best white average scores by 1,641 to 1,578 this year.)
 

ttwtt78640

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Remember all the weeping and wailing about grades, affirmative action and college entry requirements?
Remember how sure most whites are that every black student in a Ivy league University got there at the expense of some white kid?

Well looky..looky here!! Study shows when whites are pitted against their Asian counter-part ...guess what ....GRADES are suddenly not sssoo important!!

White definitions of merit and admissions change when they think about Asian Americans, study finds | Inside Higher Ed

Critics of affirmative action generally argue that the country would be better off with a meritocracy, typically defined as an admissions system where high school grades and standardized test scores are the key factors, applied in the same way to applicants of all races and ethnicities.

But what if they think they favor meritocracy but at some level actually have a flexible definition, depending on which groups would be helped by certain policies? Frank L. Samson, assistant professor of sociology at the University of Miami, thinks his new research findings suggest that the definition of meritocracy used by white people is far more fluid than many would admit, and that this fluidity results in white people favoring certain policies (and groups) over others.

Specifically, he found, in a survey of white California adults, they generally favor admissions policies that place a high priority on high school grade-point averages and standardized test scores. But when these white people are focused on the success of Asian-American students, their views change.:lamo

The white adults in the survey were also divided into two groups. Half were simply asked to assign the importance they thought various criteria should have in the admissions system of the University of California. The other half received a different prompt, one that noted that Asian Americans make up more than twice as many undergraduates proportionally in the UC system as they do in the population of the state.

When informed of that fact, the white adults favor a reduced role for grade and test scores in admissions -- apparently based on high achievement levels by Asian-American applicants. (Nationally, Asian average total scores on the three parts of the SAT best white average scores by 1,641 to 1,578 this year.)
Some white folks are selfish too? I am shocked!
 

StillBallin75

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Haha. All I can think of is UCLA:

University of Caucasians Lost among Asians

HAHH
U See Lotta Asians

And blind people still don't realize the role that in a society dominated by white decision-makers these things make a difference in privileging certain groups above others :shock:
 
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mbig

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Remember all the weeping and wailing about grades, affirmative action and college entry requirements?
Remember how sure most whites are that every black student in a Ivy league University got there at the expense of some white kid?

Well looky..looky here!! Study shows when whites are pitted against their Asian counter-part ...guess what ....GRADES are suddenly not sssoo important!!
....
No.
Looky HERE!
http://www.debatepolitics.com/asia/...ing-than-everyone-else-10.html#post1061889741
Where we debated that for a while, near 2 months overall.
Check out WHO (specifically and group affiliation wise) was most meritocratic.
 

Steelplate

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The problem is economics. When a married couple have to have two incomes just to make it paycheck to paycheck in America....and folk from other countries have many necessities that WE pay for given to them through the public coffers.....it allows for a.much more stable homelife and chances to excel.

Parents are generally too damned tired and stressed out to be dealing with their kid's issues in many cases. The problem isn't in our education system...it's in our economic system.

It's easy to.point the finger at public education and say" they're not doing enough"...but it's harder to point the ti ger at yourself and say "I'M not doing enough".....especially when between you and your spouse, you've been working 60+ hours a week EACH just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.
 

Grand Mal

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The problem is economics. When a married couple have to have two incomes just to make it paycheck to paycheck in America....and folk from other countries have many necessities that WE pay for given to them through the public coffers.....it allows for a.much more stable homelife and chances to excel.

Parents are generally too damned tired and stressed out to be dealing with their kid's issues in many cases. The problem isn't in our education system...it's in our economic system.

It's easy to.point the finger at public education and say" they're not doing enough"...but it's harder to point the ti ger at yourself and say "I'M not doing enough".....especially when between you and your spouse, you've been working 60+ hours a week EACH just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.
Yeah, that sounds good. Let's go with that one.
(snicker!)
 

Steelplate

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Yeah, that sounds good. Let's go with that one.
(snicker!)
Snicker all you want. For every Dudley-do-right household that somehow manages to go the extra mile, there is a hundred that is incapable of doing so....for whatever reason. Education/intelligence oof the parents....the physicality of the parent's job....mental stress and strain....whatever.

Do you want someone to.point the finger at(Asians) or real reasons and solutions as to why we're falling behind?

Teachers can't be the end all/be all. You have to have sound households too.
 

thinkforyoursel

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Some white folks are selfish too? I am shocked!
Some white folks are selfish .....trying to sweep this under the rug...aren't you? This isn't about just being selfish ....and it certainly isn't about some....white people!
This is America ..and specifically white America for all it's history.
Step 1) ...stack the deck in my(white favor)
Step 2) ...use the media to "pretend" the field is level
Step 3)....because I (white) have such an advantage ...I have free time to make deliberate effort to ensure others can never compete

These (white) kids are the very same people scattered all over the country today .....their attitude of rigging the "game" is not a one-off issue. The banker, the lawyer, the police all think this way.

Take a look at stop and frisk in New York today ....over 90% of the blacks frisked have no weapon. The only way to end that law ....stop and frisk whites for no reason ...all of a sudden they start understanding why this is a bad idea. The same people in New York today saying this is OK ...are the same people wailing about merely being spied on ...on-line by the government!!

In a similar way ...Stand-Your Ground ....can stop ...all blacks need to do is to walk around armed ...pick a fight with their white counter part ...and Walla...all of a sudden that law is repealed.

see ..what these white kids are really asking for by making this 180 degree swing when it comes to Asians ........they are asking for yep...AFFIRMITIVE ACTION!!

In fact ...I would bet these kids grow up and double-down on this way of operating. This ...in a nut shell is what racism is....this is what binds a Rush Limbaugh to Nancy Pelosi ..because this racism trumps party!!
 

Grand Mal

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Snicker all you want. For every Dudley-do-right household that somehow manages to go the extra mile, there is a hundred that is incapable of doing so....for whatever reason. Education/intelligence oof the parents....the physicality of the parent's job....mental stress and strain....whatever.

Do you want someone to.point the finger at(Asians) or real reasons and solutions as to why we're falling behind?

Teachers can't be the end all/be all. You have to have sound households too.
It almost sounds like you're implying that Asians have a social and economic advantage that translates into higher test scores and a competitive advantage, academically.
Have I got that right?
 

Steelplate

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It almost sounds like you're implying that Asians have a social and economic advantage that translates into higher test scores and a competitive advantage, academically.
Have I got that right?
I am saying that their parents are more involved...and yes, that has a lot to do with socioeconomic standing.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Remember all the weeping and wailing about grades, affirmative action and college entry requirements?
Remember how sure most whites are that every black student in a Ivy league University got there at the expense of some white kid?

Well looky..looky here!! Study shows when whites are pitted against their Asian counter-part ...guess what ....GRADES are suddenly not sssoo important!!

White definitions of merit and admissions change when they think about Asian Americans, study finds | Inside Higher Ed

Critics of affirmative action generally argue that the country would be better off with a meritocracy, typically defined as an admissions system where high school grades and standardized test scores are the key factors, applied in the same way to applicants of all races and ethnicities.

But what if they think they favor meritocracy but at some level actually have a flexible definition, depending on which groups would be helped by certain policies? Frank L. Samson, assistant professor of sociology at the University of Miami, thinks his new research findings suggest that the definition of meritocracy used by white people is far more fluid than many would admit, and that this fluidity results in white people favoring certain policies (and groups) over others.

Specifically, he found, in a survey of white California adults, they generally favor admissions policies that place a high priority on high school grade-point averages and standardized test scores. But when these white people are focused on the success of Asian-American students, their views change.:lamo

The white adults in the survey were also divided into two groups. Half were simply asked to assign the importance they thought various criteria should have in the admissions system of the University of California. The other half received a different prompt, one that noted that Asian Americans make up more than twice as many undergraduates proportionally in the UC system as they do in the population of the state.

When informed of that fact, the white adults favor a reduced role for grade and test scores in admissions -- apparently based on high achievement levels by Asian-American applicants. (Nationally, Asian average total scores on the three parts of the SAT best white average scores by 1,641 to 1,578 this year.)
Ah yeah - and remember the hilarity that comes with the drop-out statistics? It seems that being permitted into a school when you're already on the lower end of the education ladder means you're less likely to graduate.

Funny funny :roll:

I support our varied educational levels - some just aren't college material and, no matter how they get in, will soon find it above their heads if they aren't prepared enough. Those who are exceptional can have the Ivy League colleges - and the average people will be in the middle at the regular universities, etc.

Is this really so terrible? We have opportunities to suit everyone's abilities and needs - and as has been a discussion in the last few years here - standard higher education is overrated and a waste for some.
 

Steelplate

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Do the same considerations apply to low test scores for black kids?
What does color have to do with it? IMO, the poorer and less educated the parents, the more the odds are stacked against the.children of those parents.....regardless of color.

In other words....if the racial demographics of the United States were reversed....you.would find similar statistics regardless.
 

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What does color have to do with it? IMO, the poorer and less educated the parents, the more the odds are stacked against the.children of those parents.....regardless of color.

In other words....if the racial demographics of the United States were reversed....you.would find similar statistics regardless.
That's an important point. Many other people should have that point made to them.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Remember all the weeping and wailing about grades, affirmative action and college entry requirements?
Remember how sure most whites are that every black student in a Ivy league University got there at the expense of some white kid?

Well looky..looky here!! Study shows when whites are pitted against their Asian counter-part ...guess what ....GRADES are suddenly not sssoo important!!

White definitions of merit and admissions change when they think about Asian Americans, study finds | Inside Higher Ed

Critics of affirmative action generally argue that the country would be better off with a meritocracy, typically defined as an admissions system where high school grades and standardized test scores are the key factors, applied in the same way to applicants of all races and ethnicities.

But what if they think they favor meritocracy but at some level actually have a flexible definition, depending on which groups would be helped by certain policies? Frank L. Samson, assistant professor of sociology at the University of Miami, thinks his new research findings suggest that the definition of meritocracy used by white people is far more fluid than many would admit, and that this fluidity results in white people favoring certain policies (and groups) over others.

Specifically, he found, in a survey of white California adults, they generally favor admissions policies that place a high priority on high school grade-point averages and standardized test scores. But when these white people are focused on the success of Asian-American students, their views change.:lamo

The white adults in the survey were also divided into two groups. Half were simply asked to assign the importance they thought various criteria should have in the admissions system of the University of California. The other half received a different prompt, one that noted that Asian Americans make up more than twice as many undergraduates proportionally in the UC system as they do in the population of the state.

When informed of that fact, the white adults favor a reduced role for grade and test scores in admissions -- apparently based on high achievement levels by Asian-American applicants. (Nationally, Asian average total scores on the three parts of the SAT best white average scores by 1,641 to 1,578 this year.)
In an effort to understand what they did and didn't actually do during the study (because your post, and the article, don't represent the information fairly or accurately) I read up:

Oh wait - his findings were released in a book. All I can find is this one article which doesn't give direct stats, methodology, etc. I have to spend money to find out.
 
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So why don't we just get rid of affirmative action period? It is terribly unfair to systematically discriminate against individuals because of their race--any race, including Asians.
 

justabubba

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The problem is economics. When a married couple have to have two incomes just to make it paycheck to paycheck in America....and folk from other countries have many necessities that WE pay for given to them through the public coffers.....it allows for a.much more stable homelife and chances to excel.

Parents are generally too damned tired and stressed out to be dealing with their kid's issues in many cases. The problem isn't in our education system...it's in our economic system.

It's easy to.point the finger at public education and say" they're not doing enough"...but it's harder to point the ti ger at yourself and say "I'M not doing enough".....especially when between you and your spouse, you've been working 60+ hours a week EACH just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.
please tell us you forgot to indicate this was intended to be a sarcastic post
that you did not attempt to convince us that those without means who come from foreign lands to settle in the USA have it easier than Americans who are here by right of birth
 

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please tell us you forgot to indicate this was intended to be a sarcastic post
that you did not attempt to convince us that those without means who come from foreign lands to settle in the USA have it easier than Americans who are here by right of birth
Maybe I did.....maybe coming here with a clean slate makes it easier to see and grasp the opportunities that are here. Perhaps we are clouded by our "birthright".

Think of a tourist who comes to your area. You may be so used to your surroundings that you don't recognize the uniqueness or beauty of the place you live....or, you've seen it so many times that you take it for granted. There are people in Arizona who haven't been to the Grand Canyon.....People in North Carolina who haven't driven on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

There are people who are so.busy with trying to make it to their next paycheck that their kids' education and emotional growth take a backseat to putting food on the table and a roof over their heads....and their kids suffer for it.
 

Kushinator

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It's easy to.point the finger at public education and say" they're not doing enough"...but it's harder to point the the finger at yourself and say "I'M not doing enough".....especially when between you and your spouse, you've been working 60+ hours a week EACH just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.
I disagree.

Even if we assume minimum wage rates and a 120 work week, that is still roughly $45k in income and a high likelihood of negative income tax rates when it is all said and done. The situation becomes low probability when we consider the minimum wage representation of the labor force (less than 3%).
 

thinkforyoursel

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The problem is economics. When a married couple have to have two incomes just to make it paycheck to paycheck in America....and folk from other countries have many necessities that WE pay for given to them through the public coffers.....it allows for a.much more stable homelife and chances to excel.

Parents are generally too damned tired and stressed out to be dealing with their kid's issues in many cases. The problem isn't in our education system...it's in our economic system.

It's easy to.point the finger at public education and say" they're not doing enough"...but it's harder to point the ti ger at yourself and say "I'M not doing enough".....especially when between you and your spouse, you've been working 60+ hours a week EACH just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.


If say blacks were to stay in poverty and raise their test scores at or above whites ....tell me ...tell us ....why in the world would you not think ...whites would change the rules? This mindset is clearly demonstrated in this thread...isn't it?

If getting beat by the Asians means ...change the rules .....why getting beat by blacks wouldn't mean the same?

The simple fact is ....whites have always been for affirmative action ......that benefits them.

We see this happening right now with the voting rights act across states ...... if republicans can't win with the majority .....why not change the voting rules to make the minority win.
 

thinkforyoursel

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it's California...meritocracy isn't exactly a widespread belief out there.
Actually ...I would expect this attitude among whites to more likely be displayed in the south.

Like I said ...whites more than any group ...strongly favors their ..affirmative action.

When they were clearly the majority in the south....who came up with the ..."count the jelly beans in the bottle ...ruse?
 

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Actually ...I would expect this attitude among whites to more likely be displayed in the south.

Like I said ...whites more than any group ...strongly favors their ..affirmative action.

When they were clearly the majority in the south....who came up with the ..."count the jelly beans in the bottle ...ruse?
Sure if you want to use a 50 year old sterotype to feel better than people in the South. As someone who lives in the south, I can say we pretty much hate everyone equally, except our relatives whom we hate more, unless of course you mess with them in which case we might have to become involved because you are not elbowing in on our turf.
 
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