• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

White James Bond to be replaced by a black James Bond

Hypothetical

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
6,588
Reaction score
1,759
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
I don't think I can agree with this. If you look into the arts, there are all sorts of modern adaptations of original characters and stories. Some work, some don't. Bram Stoker published Dracula in 1897, but how many incarnations/adaptations of the character/story have we seen over the decades? Are we to say we should honor Stoker by sticking with his version of a bloodthirsty immortal? I hope not, because I loved Blade and Underworld. :)



View attachment 67312670View attachment 67312673

blade and underworld are great! and they are new themes on the old story, which is great. would i want Blade to be white in a sequel? no of course not because the story has been ESTABLISHED with Blade as a bad ass Black vampire killer

its not the point of squelching new themes, it is the point that once they are established and a hit, WHY change them for this purpose except to throw identity politics in your face?

that becomes annoying.
 

Lord Tammerlain

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
20,610
Reaction score
8,983
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Lol. Wasn't Bond written by its author to be a white man?

This discussion inspires a question - but - it needs a separate thread for it. Will post it when I get the time.
In the with Craig or Brosnon Bond movies (except one where they go to Bonds ancestral home) where any lines would need to be rewritten to support Idris Elba playing Bond?
 

bullseyelqcs

I'm a freaking unicorn!!
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
4,150
Reaction score
1,634
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Again, I feel people are missing a huge point...

There is no possible way that Connery, Moore, Lasenby, Dalton, Brosnan and Craig all played the same person.

Bond and the 007 codename are exactly that...codenames. The idea that one person did everything in the Bond world is ludicrous. The sheer number of years one person would have had to be active defies logic. Its far more plausible and likely that each of them played someone who carried thar designation just like one man isnt POTUS. The designation is transferable.

As that is the more likely situation, Elba playing Bond would have no effect on the Bond universe.

What should make people madder is that Val Kilmer was somehow cast as Batman, as Bruce Wayne was an actal person with particular characteristics.
 

CaughtInThe

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
33,572
Reaction score
20,353
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
i finally had to tell my wife about this thread about a fictitious story this morning (although i've only read a few posts).


hey, i was bored and we got a few laughs.
 

Ahlevah

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
2,860
Location
Pindostan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
blade and underworld are great! and they are new themes on the old story, which is great. would i want Blade to be white in a sequel? no of course not because the story has been ESTABLISHED with Blade as a bad ass Black vampire killer

its not the point of squelching new themes, it is the point that once they are established and a hit, WHY change them for this purpose except to throw identity politics in your face?

that becomes annoying.
I dunno. Maybe for the same reason Pretty Yende would play Musette in Puccini's La bohème. For decades it hasn't been unusual to have black opera singers sing Mozart, so maybe that's why I'm more receptive to the idea of having them act as "white" characters in the movies. Anyway, did you see the 2006 version of Casino Royale in which "M," the head of MI6, was played by a woman? Or any of the other Bond movies where Dame Judi Dench reprised the role? Did you enjoy it (them)? Or did the change tank it (them), in your opinion? I mean, I get your point. Some of this PC crap is annoying if that's the reason the change is done, but then if someone has the rights to the character in that medium they pretty much own it. I don't think anyone funding a movie is out to lose money, so the libertarian in me says if they want to sell a black James Bond then let them. If people, like me, are entertained by it, then I don't have a problem with it. No one is forcing you or anyone else to go see it. If someone does have an issue then they can create their own character and keep the rights to it even after their death through proper estate planning.
 
Last edited:

tosca1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
22,279
Reaction score
2,831
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
In the with Craig or Brosnon Bond movies (except one where they go to Bonds ancestral home) where any lines would need to be rewritten to support Idris Elba playing Bond?
I like Idris Elba. He obviously got the looks and the talent. I thought he'd reach the height of Denzel!
Too bad - he made a couple of movies that I think had hurt his career (one with Beyonce, and the other one I can't even remember the title).


Sure, the producer of James Bond can do what she wants. She can re-write it to support Elba playing the role. However, even if the movie is called
"James Bond" - it wouldn't really be the James Bond. It'll be just another spy movie whose main character happens to be called, "James Bond."


Having a black James Bond will smack of politics.
It wouldn't be about the movie anymore. It'll be about political correctness.
Look at some of the actors who dabbled into politics - like, Jennifer Lawrence, Matt Damon, George Clooney - they're not as hot as they used to be.
Especially Lawrence, who was on her way up! She was on Forbes list of highest paid star in 2015 and 2016. Her movies started flopping in 2017! Go figure.
Now....she's going with Netflix! Amy Schumer is reduced to advertising for tampons!
If a celebrity will get into politics - he's has got to be really, really well-liked that people he disagree with, will hold their noses and still watch his movies.

The country is BITTERLY divided. A celebrity can't afford to antagonize half of the population. :)

I don't know exactly where Idris Elba is in his career right now............but I don't think playing the James Bond character will be of help to him.
 
Last edited:

Lord Tammerlain

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
20,610
Reaction score
8,983
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Just by going on the actors skill and presence on the screen,

Elba would be a better Bond than Tom Hardy, I really like Tom Hardy, he is a great actor, but he is not tall enough be a good Bond, I never really liked Craig in the role because he is too short to be Bond in my opinion.

Elba would have similar presence as Sean Connery did when playing Bond. But at 48 he would have the role for perhaps 1 or 2 movies at most
 

Ahlevah

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
2,860
Location
Pindostan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Sure, the producer of James Bond can do what she wants. She can re-write it to support Elba playing the role. However, even if the movie is called
"James Bond" - it wouldn't really be the James Bond. It'll be just another spy movie whose main character happens to be called, "James Bond."


Having a black James Bond will smack of politics.
It wouldn't be about the movie anymore. It'll be about political correctness.
Look at some of the actors who dabbled into politics - like, Jennifer Lawrence, Matt Damon, George Clooney - they're not as hot as they used to be.
Especially Lawrence, who was on her way up! She was on Forbes list of highest paid star in 2015 and 2016. Her movies started flopping in 2017! Go figure.
Now....she's going with Netflix! Amy Schumer is reduced to advertising for tampons!
If a celebrity will get into politics - he's has got to be really, really well-liked that people he disagree with, will hold their noses and still watch his movies.

The country is BITTERLY divided. A celebrity can't afford to antagonize half of the population. :)

I don't know exactly where Idris Elba is in his career right now............but I don't think playing the James Bond character will be of help to him.
You make some good points here (especially about Amy Schumer relegated to doing tampon commercials ;)).

Here is Ian Fleming's original model for "M":

Vice_Admiral_Godfrey_WWII_IWM_A_20777.jpg


I remember the first time I saw Judi Dench playing "M" (Goldeneye in 1995). I was like "what the frack? A WOMAN? PLAYING 'M'? Here go the PC police again." :mad: No kidding. They existed back then, too. I mean, I don't have a problem redefining a character, unless it's done solely as a means to make a political statement or as form of propaganda, which I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that that was the case. Artistic license is one thing, but I don't like being manipulated.

Anyway, I watched it, and I enjoyed it. (And I think I wore out my son's Nintendo 64 playing the video game version.) She played the character in eight "Bond spy movies." She doesn't seem to have hurt the franchise at the box office, because she starred in every one of the highest grossing Bond movies made, including Skyfall, which grossed $1.1 billion worldwide. Her total Bond box office: more than $4.5 billion (https://www.forbes.com/sites/travis...lms-ranked-at-the-box-office/?sh=57e8a15b1804). That's a lot of scratch.
 
Last edited:

tosca1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
22,279
Reaction score
2,831
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Just by going on the actors skill and presence on the screen,

Elba would be a better Bond than Tom Hardy, I really like Tom Hardy, he is a great actor, but he is not tall enough be a good Bond, I never really liked Craig in the role because he is too short to be Bond in my opinion.

Elba would have similar presence as Sean Connery did when playing Bond. But at 48 he would have the role for perhaps 1 or 2 movies at most


Maybe.....they should show it on Netflix. His movie "The Take" has bombed, but is the most watched movie on Netflix. 🤷


 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,286
Reaction score
4,889
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I like the idea of a black James Bond because it supports the theory that James Bond is just a code name or cover identity that's been filled by many different people over the years. Kind of like Dread Pirate Roberts.
 

Hypothetical

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
6,588
Reaction score
1,759
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
I dunno. Maybe for the same reason Pretty Yende would play Musette in Puccini's La bohème. For decades it hasn't been unusual to have black opera singers sing Mozart, so maybe that's why I'm more receptive to the idea of having them act as "white" characters in the movies. Anyway, did you see the 2006 version of Casino Royale in which "M," the head of MI6, was played by a woman? Or any of the other Bond movies where Dame Judi Dench reprised the role? Did you enjoy it (them)? Or did the change tank it (them), in your opinion? I mean, I get your point. Some of this PC crap is annoying if that's the reason the change is done, but then if someone has the rights to the character in that medium they pretty much own it. I don't think anyone funding a movie is out to lose money, so the libertarian in me says if they want to sell a black James Bond then let them. If people, like me, are entertained by it, then I don't have a problem with it. No one is forcing you or anyone else to go see it. If someone does have an issue then they can create their own character and keep the rights to it even after their death through proper estate planning.

if you are entertained by it, no worries then. Enjoy it if they do it that way.... just don't go crying racism if it flops.

its not like i really care that much but I know who James Bond is to me, just like I know who Blade is , to me. I am really talking about overboard PC crap, not a movie in particular.
 

Ahlevah

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
2,860
Location
Pindostan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
if you are entertained by it, no worries then. Enjoy it if they do it that way.... just don't go crying racism if it flops.

its not like i really care that much but I know who James Bond is to me, just like I know who Blade is , to me. I am really talking about overboard PC crap, not a movie in particular.
I won't. I don't know whether a black opera singer performing the role of Carmen does better or worse box office than a white one, but it doesn't seem to have made much difference to audiences. Supposedly Judi Dench was brought into the Bond franchise to "update" it and recognize that a woman, Stella Remington, had been placed in charge of MI5 in 1993. A female "M" doesn't seem to have made much difference to audiences either. Dench worked more than fine in seven movies (eight if you count Spectre). Then she died in Skyfall, with Ralph Fiennes taking back the role for the guys. 😎 Whereas I was pretty pissed off when they cast her into the role, I was also pissed off years later when they killed her off 🤬, although Fiennes is a fantastic actor. He sent chills down my spine as the sadistic Amon Goeth in Schindler's List. He makes a good "M," too, and certainly more resembles Fleming's original model for the character.

Anyway, I respect your opinion, just as I respect that of the Blade screenwriter David Goyer when he pushed back against the studio's suggestion that Blade be white. Personally, I wish we lived in Justice Harlan's colorblind society. If we're ever going to get to a point where people aren't judged by race, then we should probably stop judging people by race. But then I'm also a realist. Race is one part of characterization and it has been for centuries, perhaps because it can affect the experience of a character. If Bond in your mind grew up in the Scottish Highlands at Skyfall, then a black Bond would probably undermine that vision. Where he grew up also defines who that character is to an audience, and let's face it: there aren't many black Scottish highlanders. But that is a personal, subjective thing. Maybe a Scottish Bond matters to some people, while others figure he could have been Born in England from parents who immigrated from Kenya.
 
Last edited:

Ahlevah

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
2,860
Location
Pindostan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I like the idea of a black James Bond because it supports the theory that James Bond is just a code name or cover identity that's been filled by many different people over the years. Kind of like Dread Pirate Roberts.
There's Tony Stark, the wealthy industrialist, and James Rhodes, the brother from South Philly, and then there's Ironman. ;)
 

Sherlock Holmes

Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
1,013
Location
Arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
I just don't see Regé-Jean Page as being a decent James Bond, nowhere near what Idris Elba would bring to the party.
 

Carleen

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
7,725
Reaction score
3,162
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Why is it always ok to replace a white with a black but not the other way around?

Same blacks are offended white do voices on black cartoons
My hope is one day that the color of a person’s skin or nationality is not indicated in any way. Then we will all be truly be equal. Until then WHITE is still supreme to many.
 

uptower

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
9,518
Reaction score
5,769
Location
Behind you - run!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I actually think it won't happen. Wait till the contract is signed. In the end what sells is staying fairly true to the character. Personally I like Craig and will be sad to see his run over but he's getting on. I think if the scripting had been better on Spectre and Solace they would have been decent. I could see Kevin Mckidd doing it Craig style but he'd be too old after a film or two as well.

Ever notice how Bond's enemies always have a deformity or disfigurement? I think He needs to stop beating up on the disabled.
 

OscarLevant

Gadfly Extraordinaire
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
15,222
Reaction score
6,286
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Why is it always ok to replace a white with a black but not the other way around?

Same blacks are offended white do voices on black cartoons
Well, the first black actor to play a James Bond villain says JB must be WHITE.


Kotto, 75, added that he finds it “ridiculous” when people say all roles should be open to black actors. “If I say I want to play JFK, I should be laughed out of the room,” he said.

Sure, you can do a black James Bond, but it wasn't Ian Fleming's vision, (does anyone really believe his JB was supposed to be anything but an articulate, suave, white Brit? ) and there is a thing called artistic integrity of the creator of the franchise. I mean, if the only reason they are doing it is because of some 'egalitarian' or 'politically correct' principle, that's nuts. This isn't sociology, this is art. Art isn't about anything other than the vision of creator of the artist work.
 

OscarLevant

Gadfly Extraordinaire
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
15,222
Reaction score
6,286
Location
San Diego
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
The short answer, as always, is that there is a history of discrimination by whites against blacks. So, for example, a "Miss black America" pageant and a "Miss white America pageant" would not be the same issue, when black women faced such exclusion from any real equal chance and participation from the dominant beauty pageant in the country, and this 'double standard' could continue even after the "Miss America" pageant became less discriminatory.

As for whites doing black voices or parts in entertainment: there's an issue of a history of discrimination against blacks there, and an unfairness to black entertainers being hired. That creates an injustice that is more sensitive about whites taking black parts than blacks taking white parts. As things become more fair, the double standards tend to go away.

But what is it that requires James Bond to be white? He's not a real historical figure.

When Daniel Craig was selected, there was some outcry, 'James Bond is not blonde', and that's without the race issue. But Craig won over most fans. There's no real difference for a black actor to do the same - or even a woman Bond, Jane Bond, including a black woman. It is a bit jarring for some fans, but it's an option that might or might not 'work', depending partly on the actor, and partly on fans' level of closed-mindedness.

But the real answer likely lies more in the marketing research showing that the franchise gets 'stale', and a change like this, in light of changing demographics, keeps it more 'fresh', and that the number of white fans who abandon the franchise might be outnumbered by the number of new fans of color who warm to the series. In short, money. The 'controversy' it causes tends to be seen by the owners as good because it's press and attention.

It doesn't make anyone 'wrong', except those whose desire for Bond to remain white isn't based on 'tradition' but racism; some would prefer keeping him white and male, some would prefer change. It's a matter of taste for both sides largely. Bond has already long had similar controversies, where his 'sexism' appealed to some men, while it alienated some people as women's equality gained ground, calling the character a dinosaur.

I disagree. So does the first black actor to play a villian in a JB film.

Kotto, 75, added that he finds it “ridiculous” when people say all roles should be open to black actors. “If I say I want to play JFK, I should be laughed out of the room,” he said.

This is art, not sociology, and art is always about the vision of the creator of the art, or franchise. Does anyone actually believe that Ian Fleming's 'Bond' was supposed to be anyone other than a white, suave, Brit? I mean' C'mon. Racism, that's not what racism means. I mean, would you call it racist to have "Shaft' played by a white guy? how about a white Othello? Stick to the artistic vision, and doing that has NOTHING to do with racism. What's next? A black Sherlock Holmes, Phillip Marlow? Get outta here with that nonsense.


Where you could have a man of color is for Jesus Christ, who most certainly was not Euro/caucasian.
 

Jezcoe

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
2,114
Reaction score
1,590
I disagree. So does the first black actor to play a villian in a JB film.

Kotto, 75, added that he finds it “ridiculous” when people say all roles should be open to black actors. “If I say I want to play JFK, I should be laughed out of the room,” he said.

This is art, not sociology, and art is always about the vision of the creator of the art, or franchise. Does anyone actually believe that Ian Fleming's 'Bond' was supposed to be anyone other than a white, suave, Brit? I mean' C'mon. Racism, that's not what racism means. I mean, would you call it racist to have "Shaft' played by a white guy? how about a white Othello? Stick to the artistic vision, and doing that has NOTHING to do with racism. What's next? A black Sherlock Holmes, Phillip Marlow? Get outta here with that nonsense.


Where you could have a man of color is for Jesus Christ, who most certainly was not Euro/caucasian.
Ossie Davis played JFK in the movie "Bubba Ho-Tep"
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
25,062
Reaction score
9,283
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Movie makers will do whatever they want in try and make a dollar. I have no problems with Bond being played by a black actor.

Heck they let Tom Cruise play Jack Reacher from the Lee Child books. The Reacher character was over 6 foot and 200 lbs. It was disappointing to see Cruise in that role. Now Mission Impossible movies were good roles for Cruise.
 

Linuxcooldude

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Messages
1,291
Reaction score
362
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
This is just like the argument about Dr Who being a woman.

Why does it matter?
Bond has changed faces many times and the character should change with the times and the UK secret service recruits from all over the place so why shouldn't Bond be a Black Lady if they think the Actress is fit for the role?
Bond is just a codename as far as I know.
As with most identity politics, taking a classic loved, character, switching genders or race to appease the narrative. Instead of creating a new character in the same multi verse. Many good spin off series have been done this way. At least, Bond needs to be a male. O.k. If its a Black male would work.

Bond isn't a code name. M & Q would be. This is seen throughout the Bond movies where several people play Bond. At the death of his wife is lamented in various movies being the same person.
 

Jezcoe

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
2,114
Reaction score
1,590
As with most identity politics, taking a classic loved, character, switching genders or race to appease the narrative. Instead of creating a new character in the same multi verse. Many good spin off series have been done this way. At least, Bond needs to be a male. O.k. If its a Black male would work.

Bond isn't a code name. M & Q would be. This is seen throughout the Bond movies where several people play Bond. At the death of his wife is lamented in various movies being the same person.
You know all of these characters are make believe and they can do whatever they want with their toys.... right?

If it doesn’t work out they just retcon it

This isn’t about “identity politics” this is about money.

The entire entertainment industry is controlled by a sentient spreadsheet where the output must be more than the input or it gets sad.

That is the motivating factor behind all of this.
 

Linuxcooldude

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Messages
1,291
Reaction score
362
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
False assertion.

View attachment 67312352
“As for the new Bond character; In July of 2019, when rumors first began circulating that Captain Marvel star Lashana Lynch would be taking the title of 007 in the next James Bond movie, the response from a loud minority of online trolls was both disgusting and disheartening. Though nothing had been confirmed, far right toxic fans complained that a Black woman had been given the title of 007, which had previously only been used by white men.

But, the whining of internet trolls did not get Lynch down. Later that year, without confirming that she had indeed gotten the title of 007, she responded to the backlash.
.
The world doesn’t belong to bigots. Learn to deal with it.
Its really in contrast to one of the producers of the Bond movies, Barbara Broccoli. That Bond will likely still be male.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jam...tinue to be played by,“He’s a male character,"%20she%20told%20The%20Guardian.
 

PIPEWRENCH

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
11,651
Reaction score
3,788
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Why is it always ok to replace a white with a black but not the other way around?

Same blacks are offended white do voices on black cartoons
It seems to me that there are black secret agents. I don't see a problem. I liked most of the different 007's over the years. I think it is overdue.
 
Top Bottom