White James Bond to be replaced by a black James Bond

[Ahlevah]

The books are different than the movies.

Yeah, they are, but it's not the form of the medium that makes a character believable or not. It's really the context and setting. Chewbacca wouldn't work in Huckleberry Finn, whether he was in a book or a movie.

 

[Ahlevah]

Nah, we don't agree there.

Which one is Moses? Aren't those Egyptians? Israelites supposedly came from Canaan in the Middle East, not Africa. If that's true Moses would not have been of African origin.

 

[Rich2018]

So EON productions want to end the franchise...

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Yeah, they are, but it's not the form of the medium that makes a character believable or not. It's really the context and setting. Chewbacca wouldn't work in Huckleberry Finn, whether he was in a book or a movie.

Are you meaning to imply that a black James Bond simply isn't contextually believable?

 

[Hypothetical]

Geordi Laforge is was not written as a black character and could have been played by a white, chinese, black, green actor

Worf is a Klingon, all that is required was that the character looked like a Klingon

Picard had a traditional french background, but the actor had a english accent, and was played by an english actor. It could have been played by an Algerian with a French accent and it would have matched the character better

but the fact is he WAS played by a black actor. then changing him to a white actor in the movies would ruin the continuity of the storyline.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Which one is Moses? Aren't those Egyptians? Israelites supposedly came from Canaan in the Middle East, not Africa. If that's true Moses would not have been of African origin.

I was in the Philippines. I saw the blackest skinned man I had ever seen. It turned out he was one of the indigenous peoples of the island. Different from the modern pinays.

You can also look at the aborigines in Australia and see the same thing.

The people who lived in the hot sun of Africa and the Middle East for thousands of years were black. It's only later on that they were mixed with those from the north.

Moses would have been a very dark man.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

but the fact is he WAS played by a black actor. then changing him to a white actor in the movies would ruin the continuity of the storyline.

What continuity are you speaking of, unless you mean to imply that anyone actually believes that ONE agent accomplished all of the missions that movies have been made out of?


Ive always seen each actor who portrayed Bond as a different iteration of the character. Its just not plausible to me that one man has done ALL of those things.

 

[Ahlevah]

Are you meaning to imply that a black James Bond simply isn't contextually believable?

Depends. As I said, MI6 in 2020 is not MI6 in 1953. I wouldn't believe an elite black MI6 officer in 1953 any more than I would a black general leading a U.S. Army Corps in 1942.

 

[towanda]

Ian Fleming created James Bond, so Ian Fleming is the ultimate authority of what Bond looks like.

"The only person who has a say in who exactly Bond is… is one Ian Fleming, who created 007 in his mind back in 1952 when writing the first of many books on the spy character starting with the timeless Casino Royale. So just how did Fleming–who passed away back in 1964–imagine Bond looked like? To find the answer, one has to go back to 1958, when the author agreed to allow London’s Daily Express to create a Bond comic strip, but only under the condition that all published material must be approved by him and him only. Once an agreement was finalized, Fleming hired an artist to draw a portrait of how he envisioned Bond would look like:





So as you can see, Bond is white. Fleming alone created the character and wrote eleven novels that eventually turned into one of the most successful movie franchises of all-time, and therefore is the only authority on the matter.

So in the end... to call...anyone a racist for insisting Bond is white is just more cheap racial dialogue somehow disguised as a moral high ground. Ultimately, Fleming’s vision should be respected… Bond is, after all, his creation. But perhaps if he saw Idris Elba–a fine actor who would likely do the franchise proud–play 007 well, maybe he’d be OK with it.

We’ll never know the answer, of course. So to err on the side of caution, Sony should honor Fleming’s memory by sticking with how Fleming–and Fleming alone–envisioned 007."
Rush Is Right: James Bond Is White – Here's a Very Big Reason Why (mediaite.com)

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Depends. As I said, MI6 in 2020 is not MI6 in 1953. I wouldn't believe an elite black MI6 officer in 1953 any more than I would a black general leading a U.S. Army Corps in 1942.

But the stories being portrayed in movies werent written in 1953, nor do they portray the 1953 time period, so Im not sure what relevance that has on the discussion.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Ian Fleming created James Bond, so Ian Fleming is the ultimate authority of what Bond looks like.

"The only person who has a say in who exactly Bond is… is one Ian Fleming, who created 007 in his mind back in 1952 when writing the first of many books on the spy character starting with the timeless Casino Royale. So just how did Fleming–who passed away back in 1964–imagine Bond looked like? To find the answer, one has to go back to 1958, when the author agreed to allow London’s Daily Express to create a Bond comic strip, but only under the condition that all published material must be approved by him and him only. Once an agreement was finalized, Fleming hired an artist to draw a portrait of how he envisioned Bond would look like:

View attachment 67312658



So as you can see, Bond is white. Fleming alone created the character and wrote eleven novels that eventually turned into one of the most successful movie franchises of all-time, and therefore is the only authority on the matter.

So in the end... to call...anyone a racist for insisting Bond is white is just more cheap racial dialogue somehow disguised as a moral high ground. Ultimately, Fleming’s vision should be respected… Bond is, after all, his creation. But perhaps if he saw Idris Elba–a fine actor who would likely do the franchise proud–play 007 well, maybe he’d be OK with it.

We’ll never know the answer, of course. So to err on the side of caution, Sony should honor Fleming’s memory by sticking with how Fleming–and Fleming alone–envisioned 007."
Rush Is Right: James Bond Is White – Here's a Very Big Reason Why (mediaite.com)

You might have a point if they were trying to make the Bond in one of Flemings novels black. Alas, they arent.

 

[towanda]

Why, "alas"? It is what it is.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Why, "alas"? It is what it is.

Point being that we arent discussing Fleming’s Bond anyway....

On another note, as Ive already stated, its pretty likely Bond is no different than every other character in the series, which is to say that "he" changed as often as M or Q did. Otherwise, you would have to assume that Bond was pretty damn near 70 or so in the last movie, but he damned sure wasnt portrayed that way, now was he?

 

[Ahlevah]

But the stories being portrayed in movies werent written in 1953, nor do they portray the 1953 time period, so Im not sure what relevance that has on the discussion.

Actually, Casino Royale was written in 1952 and published in 1953. And, yeah, Fleming's early novels pitted the British Secret Service and the CIA against a fictional version of the Soviet Union's SMERSH, which was real and existed during WWII. So a movie true to the original characters in that time period wouldn't have featured Dame Judi Dench as the head of MI6 like the 2006 version did. Personally, I loved that movie, but I wouldn't mind seeing a version true to the original novel.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Yeah, they are, but it's not the form of the medium that makes a character believable or not. It's really the context and setting. Chewbacca wouldn't work in Huckleberry Finn, whether he was in a book or a movie.

Quite true

Context and setting matter

The Bond movies of today, are based on the present, not the 1950's. Most people now know there are British who are black, asian, east indian etc. That some would have joined the military and that some could actually join MI6. Given the context and setting for the character in most Bond movies (except the one with Craig in which they went to his ancestral home) the only requirements top make the actor believable as Bond is that they be
1. British, with a British accent
2. Male
3. Physically in good shape and good looking. (I would generally say at least 5 foot 10 to 6 foot 4 in height to meet the physical requirements

For the last 7 Bond films at least, if the actor playing Bond could meet the above, the script would not need to be rewritten (except the one I mentioned). Which, so Idris Elba would work in all but one Bond movie, without requiring any rewrites to "make it work"

Chewbacca in Huckleberry Finn, would require massive rewrites to make it work. Making it an entirely different movie

Shaft being played by a non black actor who could pass as African American (ie accent and mannerisms) would not require rewrites. A white actor or asian actor would

Any actor that took on the role by Edward Norton in American History X would have to be white, or it would not fit.

Ghost in the Shell, the main character is/was Japanese but was basically turned into a cyborg, so the ethnicity of the actor would be meaningless as a robot they could make the outward appearance anything they wanted

 

[Ahlevah]

Sony should honor Fleming’s memory by sticking with how Fleming–and Fleming alone–envisioned 007.
Rush Is Right: James Bond Is White – Here's a Very Big Reason Why (mediaite.com)

I don't think I can agree with this. If you look into the arts, there are all sorts of modern adaptations of original characters and stories. Some work, some don't. Bram Stoker published Dracula in 1897, but how many incarnations/adaptations of the character/story have we seen over the decades? Are we to say we should honor Stoker by sticking with his version of a bloodthirsty immortal? I hope not, because I loved Blade and Underworld.

 

[Ahlevah]

Quite true

Context and setting matter

The Bond movies of today, are based on the present, not the 1950's. Most people now know there are British who are black, asian, east indian etc. That some would have joined the military and that some could actually join MI6. Given the context and setting for the character in most Bond movies (except the one with Craig in which they went to his ancestral home) the only requirements top make the actor believable as Bond is that they be
1. British, with a British accent
2. Male
3. Physically in good shape and good looking. (I would generally say at least 5 foot 10 to 6 foot 4 in height to meet the physical requirements

For the last 7 Bond films at least, if the actor playing Bond could meet the above, the script would not need to be rewritten (except the one I mentioned). Which, so Idris Elba would work in all but one Bond movie, without requiring any rewrites to "make it work"

Chewbacca in Huckleberry Finn, would require massive rewrites to make it work. Making it an entirely different movie

Shaft being played by a non black actor who could pass as African American (ie accent and mannerisms) would not require rewrites. A white actor or asian actor would

Any actor that took on the role by Edward Norton in American History X would have to be white, or it would not fit.

Ghost in the Shell, the main character is/was Japanese but was basically turned into a cyborg, so the ethnicity of the actor would be meaningless as a robot they could make the outward appearance anything they wanted

I think we're shouting past each other. I don't have a problem with a black Bond set in the modern era.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I think we're shouting past each other. I don't have a problem with a black Bond set in the modern era.

I believe you are correct

 

[Ahlevah]

A little anecdote concerning Blade, the character:

David Goyer (Screenwriter): At one point the [studio] came to us and said “can Blade be white?” and I said “absolutely f—ing not. Like, that is just terrible. You cannot do that.”

'Blade' oral history: Wesley Snipes and the cast look back at a modern cult classic

Blade oral history: Wesley Snipes and the cast look back at a modern cult classic

ew.com

I think I'd need therapy if they ever cast Blade as a white guy.

 

[tosca1]

In all the movies but one with Craig, there is nothing that would require Bond to be white. British yes, but white no, male yes. So in all the movies but one Elba would be able to play the role with no rewrites required

Shaft on the other hand, is specifically to be a black American, having it played by a white person or Chinese person would require rewrites in the script

Lol. Wasn't Bond written by its author to be a white man?

This discussion inspires a question - but - it needs a separate thread for it. Will post it when I get the time.

 

[tosca1]

Why is James Bond white? What about his character that requires him to be white? If you were asked randomly to mention james bond attributes would “white” even be mentioned? I’d say british, spy, martini’s shaken not stirred, tux.

If someone told me to list shaft’s attributes the first would be “black”.

I mean, if a black Bond wore more casual clothes and drank gin and juice and tried to change the char to some stereotype black person Id think “this is garbage”. If Idris Elba is in a tux kicking ass and taking names and finishing it off with a martini I’d think “he’s a great james bond”.

It's what the author wrote him up to be: a white Englishman!

 

[tosca1]

but the fact is he WAS played by a black actor. then changing him to a white actor in the movies would ruin the continuity of the storyline.

Yeah. Someone used the term, "jarring." Right term!
It's discordant - it's like listening to a record player suddenly off-track and skipping!

People who claim to not see anything wrong about it are merely being politically correct about it!
Thus they even try to pretend the same shoe doesn't fit with the character of Shaft! Shaft, some say, is only for a black guy!

 

[OpportunityCost]

Who will be the next James Bond?

Daniel Craig will be the next James Bond, but who will take on 007 after him?

www.gq-magazine.co.uk

Lots of bad choices in those guesses but some good ones, too. Only the casting directors know.

 

[tosca1]

Well....I don't know how true this news is.....but if indeed true, looks like this thread has just become irrelevant:


REPORT: Tom Hardy Will Be The Next James Bond

REPORT: Tom Hardy Will Be The Next James Bond

Tom Hardy has reportedly been chosen as the next man to play James Bond. Will Tom Hardy be James Bond?

dailycaller.com

 

[tosca1]

Here is how Ian Flemming introduced James Bond:



For those unfamiliar with James Bond, the character was created by author Ian Fleming and first debuted in his Casino Royale novel.

When Vesper Lynd first meets James Bond in the novel, she describes him to Mathis, “He is very good-looking. He reminds me rather of Hoagy Carmichael, but there is something cold and ruthless in his …”
The sentence is never finished as both Mathis and Lynd become victims of an explosion.

However, Fleming would go on to describe Bond later in the novel. Here’s what he wrote, “As he tied his thin, double-ended, black satin tie, he paused for a moment and examined himself levelly in the mirror. His grey-blue eyes looked calmly back with a hint of ironical inquiry and the short lock of black hair which would never stay in place slowly subsided to form a thick comma above his right eyebrow.”

“With the thin vertical scar down his right cheek the general effect was faintly piratical. Not much of Hoagy Carmichael there, thought Bond, as he filled a flat, light gunmetal box with fifty of the Morland cigarettes with the triple gold band. Mathis had told him of the girl’s comment,” he added.


Now, you might not know who Hoagy Carmichael is, but he was a popular American actor, singer, and songwriter in the 1950s. He composed the songs “Stardust,” “Georgia on My Mind,” “The Nearness of You,” and “Heart of Soul.”


In fact, he won the Academy Award for Best Original Song in 1951 for “In the Cool, Cool, Cool of the Evening.”


He also happens to be a white man, as you can see below.

Not only is Hoagy Carmichael a white man, but the 1955 paperback edition of Casino Royale published by Pan MacMillan shows Bond as a white man.
According to The Guardian this was also the “first ever published picture representation of 007.”

James Bond Producer Addresses The Tom Hardy Rumors, Says Bond Doesn't Need To Be A "White Man"

James Bond producer Barbara Broccoli recently addressed the rumors that Tom Hardy had been chosen to become the next James Bond following Daniel Craig's tenure.

boundingintocomics.com

If producer Broccoli changes the character of James Bond - she wouldn't be making a James Bond movie.
It'll be just another spy-action thriller!