• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

White House Offers to Let Investigators Interview Rove



It's funny watching the people screaming "fuc/k the separation of powers give the Congress new powers not granted in the Constitution," actually asserting that they're the ones who support the separation of powers. Did I say funny? I meant sad, yes really really sad.

So if I have this right, this is what it amounts to...

President is elected, he then appoints people to positions because it is within constitutional powers to do so. He can also fire people from these positions because it is within his constitutional powers to do so.

So what Congress is trying to investigate, is really constitutional law, since Congress is trying to overstep the bounds of constitutional law.

Thats fine I guess, if you want to grant the executive branch the right to investigate why certain members of congress are appointed to certain committees and such(after all they aren't elected to the committee itself). Lets just make it one big effin' free for all, where everybody gets to investigate everybody and that way even less will get done :roll:
 
So if I have this right, this is what it amounts to...

President is elected, he then appoints people to positions because it is within constitutional powers to do so. He can also fire people from these positions because it is within his constitutional powers to do so.

So what Congress is trying to investigate, is really constitutional law, since Congress is trying to overstep the bounds of constitutional law.

Thats fine I guess, if you want to grant the executive branch the right to investigate why certain members of congress are appointed to certain committees and such(after all they aren't elected to the committee itself). Lets just make it one big effin' free for all, where everybody gets to investigate everybody and that way even less will get done :roll:

You have a point, but only up to a point. When investigations by these attorneys are dictated by political aims instead of the law, then hearings are not only a good idea, but the proper way to proceed, based on the powers of oversight, which are vested in Congress. In addition, when officials commit perjury, then Congress also has a Constitutional duty to investigate that lawlessness, again based on their powers of oversight.
 
You have a point, but only up to a point. When investigations by these attorneys are dictated by political aims instead of the law, then hearings are not only a good idea, but the proper way to proceed, based on the powers of oversight, which are vested in Congress. In addition, when officials commit perjury, then Congress also has a Constitutional duty to investigate that lawlessness, again based on their powers of oversight.

Are we talking about the investigations by these fired attorneys or the actual firing of the attorneys themselves?
 
You have a point, but only up to a point. When investigations by these attorneys are dictated by political aims instead of the law, then hearings are not only a good idea, but the proper way to proceed, based on the powers of oversight, which are vested in Congress. In addition, when officials commit perjury, then Congress also has a Constitutional duty to investigate that lawlessness, again based on their powers of oversight.

Well what I am trying to determine is what constitutes the oversight. Prehaps the oversight would be proper, but is it constitutional?? If it isn't then there would need to be an amendment to the constitution would there not?? And that would go before the SC right??

I just get the feeling that with this and Congress trying to draft time tables for military action, that the executive branch is starting to become minimilized, and Congress is trying to become the central power in government, rather than the powers being seperated per the constitution.
 
Well what I am trying to determine is what constitutes the oversight. Prehaps the oversight would be proper, but is it constitutional?? If it isn't then there would need to be an amendment to the constitution would there not?? And that would go before the SC right??

I just get the feeling that with this and Congress trying to draft time tables for military action, that the executive branch is starting to become minimilized, and Congress is trying to become the central power in government, rather than the powers being seperated per the constitution.

Of course it is Constitutional, and I might add, that Republicans made this exact point during Clinton's terms in office, when they did the exact same thing 31 times.
 
Of course it is Constitutional, and I might add, that Republicans made this exact point during Clinton's terms in office, when they did the exact same thing 31 times.

Just because republicans did it, doesn't mean it was constitutional...prehaps they got away with it?? Or does it state that Congress is allowed oversight into any matters pertaining to the hiring/firing of staff by the elective branch??
 
Just because republicans did it, doesn't mean it was constitutional...prehaps they got away with it?? Or does it state that Congress is allowed oversight into any matters pertaining to the hiring/firing of staff by the elective branch??

Congress's roll in oversite ends at comfirmation, they get absolutely no say beyond that point.
 
Just because republicans did it, doesn't mean it was constitutional...prehaps they got away with it?? Or does it state that Congress is allowed oversight into any matters pertaining to the hiring/firing of staff by the elective branch??

It's part of checks and balances. While it is true that the US attorneys work at the President's pleasure, some things happened which justify these investigations.

1) One attorney was fired while pursuing a larger case against Republicans as a continuation of the Cunningham case.

2) At least one other attorney was fired because he resisted the pressure from Republicans to issue indictments against a Democrat before the election, when the case was not yet ready. Because of this, the Democrat in question may walk.

3) The Bush administration claimed that the firings were for performance reasons, although all 8 prosecutors had excellent reviews.

4) Sampson lied under oath about it. (perjury)

5) Gonzales lied under oath about it. (perjury)

6) The White House then tried to throw Harriet Miers under the bus, but had to back off that effort the following day.

Yes, there is plenty enough reason to investigate, and since Congress does have the Constitutional authority of oversight, they are well within their powers to do so.
 
It's part of checks and balances. While it is true that the US attorneys work at the President's pleasure, some things happened which justify these investigations.

1) One attorney was fired while pursuing a larger case against Republicans as a continuation of the Cunningham case.

2) At least one other attorney was fired because he resisted the pressure from Republicans to issue indictments against a Democrat before the election, when the case was not yet ready. Because of this, the Democrat in question may walk.

3) The Bush administration claimed that the firings were for performance reasons, although all 8 prosecutors had excellent reviews.

4) Sampson lied under oath about it. (perjury)

5) Gonzales lied under oath about it. (perjury)

6) The White House then tried to throw Harriet Miers under the bus, but had to back off that effort the following day.

Yes, there is plenty enough reason to investigate, and since Congress does have the Constitutional authority of oversight, they are well within their powers to do so.


So hit up Sampson and Gonzales for perjury, otherwise, if I am not mistaken they can fire attorneys because the sky is cloudy if they want. Me thinks they are trying really hard to land bigger fish than Gonzales, and they may overstep their authority trying to do so;)
 
So hit up Sampson and Gonzales for perjury, otherwise, if I am not mistaken they can fire attorneys because the sky is cloudy if they want. Me thinks they are trying really hard to land bigger fish than Gonzales, and they may overstep their authority trying to do so;)


You know they'd give their proverbial left nut to get Rove on something...
 
You know they'd give their proverbial left nut to get Rove on something...

Ooh let me try a PTSDKid style post here.....

They would like to give their left nut to get Karl Rove, but liberal democrat men are actually castrated, so as not to offend their liberal feminist allies, with their testicular birthright. If anybody is going to give a left nut for Karl Rove, it will have to come from the liberal feminists that are most assuredly keeping those balls in a jar somewhere.......

How'd I do??
 
You have a point, but only up to a point. When investigations by these attorneys are dictated by political aims instead of the law,

A) Their hirings and firings are political as well they should be the President hires his attorneys because they see eye to eye with him and his constituency, that's why their appointed not elected.

B) There is absolutely no evidence that the President has prempted any ongoing investigations or jeopardizes corruption cases against either Republicans or Democrats.


 
Ooh let me try a PTSDKid style post here.....

They would like to give their left nut to get Karl Rove, but liberal democrat men are actually castrated, so as not to offend their liberal feminist allies, with their testicular birthright. If anybody is going to give a left nut for Karl Rove, it will have to come from the liberal feminists that are most assuredly keeping those balls in a jar somewhere.......

How'd I do??

That's damn funny... I would say it was 'ballsy' to post something like that, but considering it's tongue in cheek, you won't get blasted.... :rofl
 
That's damn funny... I would say it was 'ballsy' to post something like that, but considering it's tongue in cheek, you won't get blasted.... :rofl

I just wanted to try it once, especially after his poll on the "Should women marry liberal men" thread. It just seems like it would be fun to post something off the wall like that once, if I get a warning for it then oh well......
 
Just because republicans did it, doesn't mean it was constitutional...prehaps they got away with it?? Or does it state that Congress is allowed oversight into any matters pertaining to the hiring/firing of staff by the elective branch??
Congress's roll in oversite ends at comfirmation, they get absolutely no say beyond that point.
Congress does have oversight of the DoJ and all cabinet departments.

They should testify under oath, w/ a transcript in private.

Further heres a piece on Congressional Oversight from 2001

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/CRS.Oversight.pdf
Underlying the legislature's ability to oversee the executive are democratic principles as well as practical purposes. John Stuart Mill, the British Utilitarian philosopher, insisted that oversight was the key feature of a meaningful representative body: “The proper office of a representative assembly is to watch and control the government.”1 As a young scholar and future President, Woodrow Wilson—in his 1885 treatise, Congressional Government—equated oversight with lawmaking, which was usually seen as the supreme function of a legislature. He wrote, “Quite as important as legislation is vigilant oversight of administration.”2
The philosophical underpinning for oversight is the Constitution’s system of checks and balances among the legislature, executive, and judiciary. James Madison, known as the “Father of the Constitution,” described the system in Federalist No. 51 as establishing “subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to divide and arrange the several offices in such a manner that each may be a check on the other.”

In sum, oversight is a way for Congress to check on, and check, the executive.

The U.S. Constitution
Although the Constitution grants no formal, express authority to oversee or investigate the executive or program administration, oversight is implied in Congress’s impressive array of enumerated powers.3 The legislature is authorized to appropriate funds; raise and support armies; provide for and maintain a navy; declare war; provide for organizing and calling forth the national guard; regulate interstate and foreign commerce; establish post offices and post roads; advise and consent on treaties and presidential nominations (Senate); and impeach (House) and try (Senate) the President, Vice President, and civil officers for treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
Reinforcing these powers is Congress’s broad authority “to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”
The authority to oversee derives from these constitutional powers. Congress could not carry them out reasonably or responsibly without knowing what the executive is doing; how programs are being administered, by whom, and at what cost; and whether officials are obeying the law and complying with legislative intent. The Supreme Court has legitimated Congress’s investigative power, subject to constitutional safeguards for civil liberties. In 1927, the Court found that, in investigating the administration of the Department of Justice, Congress was considering a subject “on which legislation could be had or would be materially aided by the information which the investigation was calculated to elicit.”4

There is a long history behind executive reports to Congress. Indeed, one of the first laws of the First Congress—the 1789 Act to establish the Treasury Department (1 Stat. 66)—called upon the Secretary and the Treasurer to report directly to Congress on public expenditures and all accounts. The Secretary was also required “to make report, and give information to either branch of the legislature ... respecting all matters referred to him by the Senate or House of Representatives, or which shall appertain to his office.”
Party line and blogger quoting may now continue
 
Moderator's Warning:

Lay off the comments 9direct and indirect) about other posters please.
 
What Secrets are Protected under Executive Privilege?, United States v. Nixon (1974), Landmark Supreme Court Cases
In the Supreme Court case of United States v. Nixon, Nixon's lawyers argued that executive privilege should extend to certain conversations between the president and his aides, even when national security is not at stake. They argued that in order for aides to give good advice and to truly explore various alternatives, they had to be able to be candid. If they were going to issue frank opinions, they had to know that what they said was going to be kept confidential.

In the opinion, the Supreme Court conceded that there is indeed a privilege for "confidential executive deliberations" about matters of policy having nothing to do with national security. This privilege is constitutionally based, deriving form the separation of powers. However, the Court held that this privilege is not absolute but can be overcome if a judge concludes that there is a compelling governmental interest in getting access to the otherwise privileged conversations, as in the case of the Nixon tapes.
But, please note that Bush says he was out of the loop on this one, iirc. So we're into talking about conversations w/ the Pres, but conversations merely between aides.
 
But, please note that Bush says he was out of the loop on this one, iirc. So we're into talking about conversations w/ the Pres, but conversations merely between aides.


John Dean pointed that out on Countdown last night. That is absolutely correct! (That had not occurred to me.)
 
What Secrets are Protected under Executive Privilege?, United States v. Nixon (1974), Landmark Supreme Court Cases
In the Supreme Court case of United States v. Nixon, Nixon's lawyers argued that executive privilege should extend to certain conversations between the president and his aides, even when national security is not at stake. They argued that in order for aides to give good advice and to truly explore various alternatives, they had to be able to be candid. If they were going to issue frank opinions, they had to know that what they said was going to be kept confidential.

In the opinion, the Supreme Court conceded that there is indeed a privilege for "confidential executive deliberations" about matters of policy having nothing to do with national security. This privilege is constitutionally based, deriving form the separation of powers. However, the Court held that this privilege is not absolute but can be overcome if a judge concludes that there is a compelling governmental interest in getting access to the otherwise privileged conversations, as in the case of the Nixon tapes.
But, please note that Bush says he was out of the loop on this one, iirc. So we're into talking about conversations w/ the Pres, but conversations merely between aides.

I promise you, if the Bush administration becomes transparent and a case is brought forward against them, it will be the biggest political scandal in history, it will make the Nixon scandal look like a sunday drive.
 
You know they'd give their proverbial left nut to get Rove on something...

Left nut? I don't know about that. They would be more inclined to give up their right nut. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, Patrick Leahy, who himself was a prosecutor for 8 years, summed it up rather nicely:

"This is a -- I realize U.S. Attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president, but the U.S. justice system does not serve at the pleasure of either this president or any other president. And we intend to find out just what happened."
 
Left nut? I don't know about that. They would be more inclined to give up their right nut. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, Patrick Leahy, who himself was a prosecutor for 8 years, summed it up rather nicely:

I'm not saying it wasn't down & dirty if the attorneys were fired for political reasons(it was), but in it's current form(that's the operative phrase) if it's not illegal, then I don't know what the hulla-balloo is. If Congress doesn't like it, then change the law to keep this from happening in future incidents...

If people lied, then indict them, but let's keep the fishing to more appropriate areas...

I'm certainly no apologist for this administration, I'm not happy with how they've handled things and cannot wait until January 2009, unless Hillary is being inaugurated.... that gives me nightmares... <full body shiver>
 




In this case they aren't accountable to anyone, if the President isn't supposed to appoint those officials who are in tow with his posititions and the position of his constiuncey then WTF is the point of having Presidential elections?​





- yes...it was set up to ensure that one branch of the government does not become more powerful than the others. You got that one right.

However, where you are wrong is that the actions of Congress here are not usurping any of the Presidential power. No one is saying that the President doesn't have the power to hire or fire at will regarding US Attorneys. Clearly he has that authority.

However, when information becomes evident that these firings were motivated by political reasons in retaliation for exposing corruption in the administration and you have the Attorney General lying about it....it becomes an area that Congress CAN and SHOULD investigate.

King George and his supporters like yourself cannot hide behind a shield of Executive Privilege and claim that you are above the law and not accountable to the people. If GW and Gonzales had simply said, yes we fired them for political reasons I don't think it would be an issue. The issue isn't the firings...its the cover-up and the related information that came out after that not only allows congress to investigate, it requires congress to investigate.

I know that you truly believe that GWB is "the Decider" and that he is not accountable to anyone. However, that is plain and simply wrong and is exactly what seperation of powers is all about....each branch acting as a check/balance on the others. Thats basic civics 101.​
 
And some of the conservatives wonder why the Senate has a hard time believing some of these Bush appointees.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/23/washington/23cnd-giles.html

Ex-Deputy of Interior Dept. Pleads Guilty
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS

WASHINGTON, March 23 — J. Steven Griles, the second-highest official at the Interior Department during President Bush’s first term, pleaded guilty today to lying to a Senate committee about his ties to Jack Abramoff, the disgraced lobbyist who obtained help from the Interior Department for his Indian tribal clients. . . .

Mr. Griles, 59, the Deputy Secretary of the Interior under Gale N. Norton from 2001 to 2004, was a high-profile lobbyist for oil and gas companies before joining the Bush administration. . . .
 
Back
Top Bottom