Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

1: People have a right to life, a doctor not treating them endangers that life. The government has a valid power in ensuring that people get medical attention.
2: Most private doctors do not have the tools necessary to carry out life saving surgury in their clinics. As such they must send the patient to the hospital if such is needed. Those hospitals are generally called "community hospitals" for a reason. They are funded in large part due to contributions and government monies. Which makes them public hospitals and therefore under the same mandate that any other government institution would be regarding discrimination. Not allowed to.

This applies to any privately owned business also. If you take money from the government then you are in essence employed by the government to provide a service, as such you are under the same mandate of non-discimination.

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What? And who would we blame for the dead if no doctors existed at all? Where would your right to life be then? I'm not following this at all.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

US Conservative said:

I doubt it, the govt will demand taxation at the very least. Welcome to the world.

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Then you need your own island nation with you as the government then you can truly do what you want - to be left alone. Otherwise you have made a voluntary decision to live in a society where things like taxation and limits on your behavior are part of the game. Its up to you.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

US Conservative said:

This is a cop out. When its something you dont like, you will use every technique possible to circumvent the Constitution and the people of the USA.

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Please provide verifiable evidence that I attempt to circumvent the Constitution of the USA.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

We are all part of the very same real world. I advocate for the idea that it is wrong to initiate aggression against the person or property of others. You know, the basic rules of civil behavior you probably learned in kindergarten: Don't hit people and don't take their stuff.

You, on the other hand, are a champion of government aggression, and yet you offer no justification for your position. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying it. You can't convince me that it is perfectly fine for one person's property to be taken by force by others.

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Of course nobody can convince you since you have already made an ideological decision to accept certain beliefs with no regard for pragmatics or what is necessary to run a railroad so to speak. You will never "buy it" since you have already bought a bill of goods and that is a matter of faith with you.

You mention rules you learned in kindergarten and refer to "don't hit people and don't take their stuff".

I too am a big fan of that book and feel it is true wisdom. Lets get the rules straight first

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN

(a guide for Global Leadership)

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.

These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.
Everything you need

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There is nothing in there about elevating personal selfishness to your guiding principle in life. It does talk about sharing everything. It talks about playing fair. It talks about balance in life. It talks about helping each other and working with others.

That is what you are missing. Yes - don't hit people and don't take what does not belong to you. But personal property can be taxed and that does indeed belong to the peoples government as written in the Constitution and enacted in law. So it is no longer yours and is not your stuff to take.

It mentions balance and I have repeatedly taken the position that balance in rights is what it is all about. Rights tend to be things you have to use common sense about - no right to yell FIRE in a crowded theater for example. No right to sacrifice willing virgins upon your religions altar. No right to just walk in and election day and announce you want to vote if you have not complied with the rules and restrictions laid down about voting. Its all about balance the rights of the individual with the 315 million people in society.

We might all be part of the physical world but when I say you live in a different world I am speaking that you have made an intellectual decision to NOT live in this one with its basic rules, regulations, laws, and limits that you object to. Thats okay as people all through history have objected to such things. The Pilgrims also did and they left the society they objected to since they could not change it and came here.

You should use them as your example in this matter since you are NOT going to abolish eminent domain, roll back the clock to allow the freedom to segregate, or abolish taxation.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

And having people's property taken by force by other people who have decided they want it.

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The Founders who gave us the Constitution, every President and every Congress have joined seeing the necessity to take property - by force if necessary. That is simply the nation we live in.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Of course nobody can convince you since you have already made an ideological decision to accept certain beliefs with no regard for pragmatics or what is necessary to run a railroad so to speak. You will never "buy it" since you have already bought a bill of goods and that is a matter of faith with you.

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If that is your way of saying that I won't support eminent domain because of my principles, then yes, I agree.

You mention rules you learned in kindergarten and refer to "don't hit people and don't take their stuff".

I too am a big fan of that book and feel it is true wisdom. Lets get the rules straight first

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I wasn't referring to any book.

There is nothing in there about elevating personal selfishness to your guiding principle in life.

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Straw man.

I don't advocate elevating personal selfishness to one's guiding principle. I advocate respecting the body and property my fellow man. That is why I won't support government policies that use force to take the property of my fellow Americans.

It does talk about sharing everything. It talks about playing fair. It talks about balance in life. It talks about helping each other and working with others.

That is what you are missing. Yes - don't hit people and don't take what does not belong to you. But personal property can be taxed and that does indeed belong to the peoples government as written in the Constitution and enacted in law.

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Taxation is taking other people's stuff.

So it is no longer yours and is not your stuff to take.

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What was my neighbor's now suddenly no longer belongs to him? Sounds a lot like his stuff was taken.

It mentions balance and I have repeatedly taken the position that balance in rights is what it is all about. Rights tend to be things you have to use common sense about - no right to yell FIRE in a crowded theater for example. No right to sacrifice willing virgins upon your religions altar. No right to just walk in and election day and announce you want to vote if you have not complied with the rules and restrictions laid down about voting. Its all about balance the rights of the individual with the 315 million people in society.

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I'm all for balancing our rights. We all have a right to our body and property, that that must be balanced against everyone else's rights to their body and property.

Taking what belongs to others is not balancing rights; it is violating rights.

We might all be part of the physical world but when I say you live in a different world I am speaking that you have made an intellectual decision to NOT live in this one with its basic rules, regulations, laws, and limits that you object to. Thats okay as people all through history have objected to such things. The Pilgrims also did and they left the society they objected to since they could not change it and came here.

You should use them as your example in this matter since you are NOT going to abolish eminent domain, roll back the clock to allow the freedom to segregate, or abolish taxation.

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Nope. I'm not leaving. I'm not abandoning the American people to the statist thugs who would enslave them and take their property.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

The Founders who gave us the Constitution, every President and every Congress have joined seeing the necessity to take property - by force if necessary. That is simply the nation we live in.

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I see that you have fallen for the fallacy that because other people believe as you that your argument is correct.

That does nothing to advance your argument that it is right or just for my neighbor to have his property taken by others by force.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

Taxation is taking other people's stuff.

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Yes it is when authorized by the greater society and the government of the people. And since that violates your personal principle of belief - it is ample evidence provided directly by you that your ideas are NOT those of the real world we live in. If you disagree, feel free how you could run the USA, the fifty states, and local areas WITHOUT compulsory taxation.

Lets hear it how it would work in Libertarian Lala Land.

I'm all for balancing our rights. We all have a right to our body and property, that that must be balanced against everyone else's rights to their body and property.

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People have much much more than simple property rights. They have all kind of rights including many other individual rights as well as the rights that the collective society has top have the type os society they want to have for their community, their state nd their nation as long as it is constitutional.

Nope. I'm not leaving. I'm not abandoning the American people to the statist thugs who would enslave them and take their property.

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Of course you will not leave. You have good thing here and do not have the courage of your principles to leave a system you find so abhorrent and wrong. Instead, you will stay and keep on with your own hypocrisy.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

I see that you have fallen for the fallacy that because other people believe as you that your argument is correct.

That does nothing to advance your argument that it is right or just for my neighbor to have his property taken by others by force.

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Reality is not a fallacy. that is all I am providing you with to counter the fantasy world of your self imposed extremist beliefs.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Then you need your own island nation with you as the government then you can truly do what you want - to be left alone. Otherwise you have made a voluntary decision to live in a society where things like taxation and limits on your behavior are part of the game. Its up to you.

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The thing that matters is the degree of control, and the liberals here and elsewhere are all about that. Pocket dictators, almost to the man.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

US Conservative said:

The thing that matters is the degree of control, and the liberals here and elsewhere are all about that. Pocket dictators, almost to the man.

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Can you provide some examples of this claim?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

US Conservative said:

And there are plenty of towns with NO medical care within the community. So people (gasp!) drive.

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Yeah, and everybody has cars, don't they? And when one's really sick, it's no big deal at all to go 30-45 minutes away instead of 5 minutes away, huh? Since when do minutes matter when one is sick or injured? What are the lives of those despicable poor people (of the wrong color) compared to protecting one's right to be racist?

And y'all wonder why we keep pointing out racists among conservatives and Republicans - we do it because you have a LOT MORE...and your arguments are the reason why you have a lot more.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Then you need your own island nation with you as the government then you can truly do what you want - to be left alone. Otherwise you have made a voluntary decision to live in a society where things like taxation and limits on your behavior are part of the game. Its up to you.

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I keep telling them that taxes are the price of admission to live in a nation - and higher taxes are the price for living in a first-world nation.

But I guess the conservatives want something for nothing - they want all the rights and privileges of living in a first-world nation, but they don't want to have to pay for it. Case in point: Cliven Bundy.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:

I keep telling them that taxes are the price of admission to live in a nation - and higher taxes are the price for living in a first-world nation.

But I guess the conservatives want something for nothing - they want all the rights and privileges of living in a first-world nation, but they don't want to have to pay for it. Case in point: Cliven Bundy.

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Good point. I also would add that they want it both ways while coming up with pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo to justify and rationalize their hypocrisy. The idea that you could operate the USA, the states and the local communities without compulsory taxes is an idea that makes the Mad Hatter in Wonderland look like Albert Einstein.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Good point. I also would add that they want it both ways while coming up with pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo to justify and rationalize their hypocrisy. The idea that you could operate the USA, the states and the local communities without compulsory taxes is an idea that makes the Mad Hatter in Wonderland look like Albert Einstein.

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you just called the idea of the founders "the mad hatter's idea"

compulsory taxes on the people is stealing any way you slice it!

by the way.....government is supposed to be limited........HOWEVER ITS NOT....and for you to say it is.... when you know good and well the founders rejected education by the federal government at the constitutional convention, ..shows you will say anything!

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:

you just called the idea of the founders "the mad hatter's idea"QUOTE]

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STOP IT AND STOP IT NOW!

How long will you continue to hijack the Constitution and the Founders who wrote it?

How long will you be blind to what is actually in it and not the nightmare fantasy that you want it to be?

Where do you get the absurd idea that the founders endorsed a system with no compulsory taxation? Just where did this self imposed delusion bubble up from?
Article I, Section 8, paragraph 1 gives Congress the power to lay and collect taxes. And paragraph 18 of that same section gives them the power to make all laws necessary to carry out and execute that power.

You have really stepped into it this time. :doh:roll:

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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

STOP IT AND STOP IT NOW!

How long will you continue to hijack the Constitution and the Founders who wrote it?

How long will you be blind to what is actually in it and not the nightmare fantasy that you want it to be?

Where do you get the absurd idea that the founders endorsed a system with no compulsory taxation? Just where did this self imposed delusion bubble up from?
Article I, Section 8, paragraph 1 gives Congress the power to lay and collect taxes. And paragraph 18 of that same section gives them the power to make all laws necessary to carry out and execute that power.

You have really stepped into it this time. :doh:roll:

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TAXES....... ARTICLE 1 SECTION 8, ARE TAXES PLACED ON THE STATES...NOT THE PEOPLE!..........THE 16TH AMENDMENT PLACES TAXES DIRECTLY ON THE PEOPLE


THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION HAS............ NO DIRECT TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!


ARTICLE 1 SECTION 9 CLAUSE 4......"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.



Capitation----------------------> a direct uniform tax imposed on each head or person


i put a question directly at you, CAN YOU SHOW WHERE IN THE POWERS OF CONGRESS....ARTICLE 1 SECTION 8...WHERE IT GIVES CONGRESS AUTHORITY OVER THE PEOPLE AND THEIR PERSONAL LIFE'S.


PLEASE SHOW ANYONE OF THE CLAUSES OF THAT SECTION WHICH DOES THIS!


the constitution creates FEDERALISM......IT DOES NOT CREATE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE PEOPLE----------------------------------------->ANYONE WHO SAYS THIS IS WRONG!

clause 18 gives the federal government powers to create FEDERAL LAWS, WHICH HAVE TO DO WITH THE FOREGOING POWERS ...WHICH ARE THE ONES IN ARTICLE 1 SECTION 8

EXAMPLE, WE KNOW CONGRESS HAS THE POWER TO COIN MONEY.........HOWEVER THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT SPELL OUT THE PUNISHMENT for what Counterfeiting MONEY is, all the constitution says is "To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States.

so [necessary and proper clause ]implied powers means congress can make federal law, WHICH DEALS WITH PUNISHMENT OF THAT CRIME!!!


again none!!!! of the powers of congress have anything to do with the PERSONAL LIFE'S OF THE PEOPLE..






DON'T AVOID MY QUESTION....SHOW ME WHERE CONGRESS HAS AUTHORITY PER ANY OF THE CLAUSES, OVER THE PEOPLES LIFE'S!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

STOP IT AND STOP IT NOW!

How long will you continue to hijack the Constitution and the Founders who wrote it?

How long will you be blind to what is actually in it and not the nightmare fantasy that you want it to be?

Where do you get the absurd idea that the founders endorsed a system with no compulsory taxation? Just where did this self imposed delusion bubble up from?
Article I, Section 8, paragraph 1 gives Congress the power to lay and collect taxes. And paragraph 18 of that same section gives them the power to make all laws necessary to carry out and execute that power.

You have really stepped into it this time. :doh:roll:

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per the constitution article 1 section 8 clause 17, and constitutional convention notes, dealing with this clause on Sept 5 1787, ------------->the founders state the congress has no authority over state or private property.



federalist 45 - The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former [ federal powers ]will be exercised principally on [external [order]objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the [internal order], improvement, and prosperity of the State.

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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Can you provide some examples of this claim?

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Absolutely. The ACA. The NSA expanding to nearly every American under Obama. The IRS. Birth control for 30 year old ivy league catholic colleges.
It goes on. And in every case it was forced on the American people, by leftists. There are of course, many more.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:

Yeah, and everybody has cars, don't they? And when one's really sick, it's no big deal at all to go 30-45 minutes away instead of 5 minutes away, huh? Since when do minutes matter when one is sick or injured? What are the lives of those despicable poor people (of the wrong color) compared to protecting one's right to be racist?

And y'all wonder why we keep pointing out racists among conservatives and Republicans - we do it because you have a LOT MORE...and your arguments are the reason why you have a lot more.

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You dont have a right to convenience, buddy. Your racism strawman is so predictable so as to be considered unremarkable.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:

haymarket said:

TAXES....... ARTICLE 1 SECTION 8, ARE TAXES PLACED ON THE STATES...NOT THE PEOPLE!..........

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You made up the crap about taxes placed on states as IT DOES NOT SAY THAT IN THE CONSTITUTION.

Your own twisted perversion of the Constitution is bad enough but when you have to resort to outright lying - that is way way way over the bounds of decency.

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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:

I keep telling them that taxes are the price of admission to live in a nation - and higher taxes are the price for living in a first-world nation.

But I guess the conservatives want something for nothing - they want all the rights and privileges of living in a first-world nation, but they don't want to have to pay for it. Case in point: Cliven Bundy.

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Said as if the democrat party isnt the party of confiscating wealth to redistribute for votes-and calling it virtuous. Its amazing how little insight you appear to have.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:

you just called the idea of the founders "the mad hatter's idea"

compulsory taxes on the people is stealing any way you slice it!

by the way.....government is supposed to be limited........HOWEVER ITS NOT....and for you to say it is.... when you know good and well the founders rejected education by the federal government at the constitutional convention, ..shows you will say anything!

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No insight is required of liberals. They get to emote and think its brilliant.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

STOP IT AND STOP IT NOW!

How long will you continue to hijack the Constitution and the Founders who wrote it?

How long will you be blind to what is actually in it and not the nightmare fantasy that you want it to be?

Where do you get the absurd idea that the founders endorsed a system with no compulsory taxation? Just where did this self imposed delusion bubble up from?
Article I, Section 8, paragraph 1 gives Congress the power to lay and collect taxes. And paragraph 18 of that same section gives them the power to make all laws necessary to carry out and execute that power.

You have really stepped into it this time. :doh:roll:

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Irony thy name is haymarket.

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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:

haymarket said:

per the constitution article 1 section 8 clause 17, and constitutional convention notes, dealing with this clause on Sept 5 1787, ------------->the founders state the congress has no authority over state or private property.



federalist 45 - The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former [ federal powers ]will be exercised principally on [external [order]objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the [internal order], improvement, and prosperity of the State.

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You are babbling nonsense about paragraph 17. Pure unadulterated whackjob weirdo fringe nonsense with no support in the law or in any court decision for such an extreme view.

The opinion of individuals writing 200 years or more ago is irrelevant next to the actual Constitution. Of course you should know this by know because it has been explained to you nearly hundreds of times by now.

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