• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Which is a worse outcome of our Iran situation?

Which is a worse outcome of our Iran situation?


  • Total voters
    19

Scarecrow Akhbar

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,430
Reaction score
2,282
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hmmm, voters, not talkers.

Then again, the poll is a no brainer. Besides, how long would a war with Iran take? Fifteen minutes? Thirty?
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Q)Which is a worse outcome of our Iran situation?

A)A Liberal President
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
GarzaUK said:
This is a very black and white poll.

Perhaps a little bit. But really, is there any hope of any other outcome actually happening? An Iranian revolution before they get nukes is unlikely, though not impossible. Sanctions or isolation will most likely have exactly the opposite effect that we want.
 

Calm2Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
3,967
Reaction score
7
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It's a pretty obvious poll. And the results bear that out
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,430
Reaction score
2,282
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Kandahar said:
Perhaps a little bit. But really, is there any hope of any other outcome actually happening? An Iranian revolution before they get nukes is unlikely, though not impossible. Sanctions or isolation will most likely have exactly the opposite effect that we want.

Sanctions would merely provide a means for France, Germany, and Kofi Annan to make a few extra bucks, so why bother?
 

Calm2Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
3,967
Reaction score
7
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Sanctions would merely provide a means for France, Germany, and Kofi Annan to make a few extra bucks, so why bother?

There's nothing more scary or threatening then a UN resolution or threat...:spin:
 

SixStringHero

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
134
Location
Southwest
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Not much of a gray area here and the answer seems fairly obvious.

How we go about preventing the obvious is the tricky part.
 

Hoot

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
18
Location
State of Confusion
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I voted that war would be the worse situation for the U.S.

I've already given one idea about how to possibly solve the problem with Iran...Iran has a shakey government, with many disidents more then ready to create chaos...witness the bombings of just last week in Iran. We can give Iran a bit of a taste of their own medicine...terrorism. Fund these dissidents that are disatisfied with the government of Iran and allow them to strike at the heart of the country. More bombings will lead to internal strife and increase the people's dislike of the government in power.

We can do this for a fraction of the cost of another war...a war that will cause Iran to block the Straits of Hormuz (sp?) and send the price of oil over $100/barrel...creating a crisis in the global economy. Plus, Iran has a far stronger military and will retaliate against our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and send those new-born democracies into the gutter. And you can bet that Iran will use their vast network of terrorists to attack our own shores.

War is absolutely the last choice for Iran. Can you blame them for wanting nuclear weapons? They have neighbors on both the East and West that have been attacked and invaded by the Bush administration. This problem with Iran is a direct result of Bush and his bungling ways in the Middle East.

If Iran gets a nuclear weapon...so what? Do you really believe they will attack Israel knowing they will face a return nuclear strike that will turn their nation into a sheet of glass?

We can disrupt their government from within and get far better results, with less casualties, less money, ( which we don't have) and stop instilling the hatred of the U.S. throughout the Middle East.

Hoot...Another Veteran against the war with Iraq
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Hoot said:
I've already given one idea about how to possibly solve the problem with Iran...Iran has a shakey government, with many disidents more then ready to create chaos...witness the bombings of just last week in Iran. We can give Iran a bit of a taste of their own medicine...terrorism. Fund these dissidents that are disatisfied with the government of Iran and allow them to strike at the heart of the country. More bombings will lead to internal strife and increase the people's dislike of the government in power.

Terrorism is generally much more effective against democracies than against dictatorships. Blowing up civilians doesn't affect government policy at all, if the government in question has no reason to care about the civilians anyway.

Hoot said:
We can do this for a fraction of the cost of another war...a war that will cause Iran to block the Straits of Hormuz (sp?) and send the price of oil over $100/barrel...creating a crisis in the global economy. Plus, Iran has a far stronger military and will retaliate against our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and send those new-born democracies into the gutter. And you can bet that Iran will use their vast network of terrorists to attack our own shores.

And how would those consequences be avoided if we supported insurrection against the Iranian regime? Do you think they're too dumb to figure out where the insurgents came from?

Hoot said:
War is absolutely the last choice for Iran. Can you blame them for wanting nuclear weapons? They have neighbors on both the East and West that have been attacked and invaded by the Bush administration. This problem with Iran is a direct result of Bush and his bungling ways in the Middle East.

OK, but that observation doesn't help to solve the problem.

Hoot said:
If Iran gets a nuclear weapon...so what? Do you really believe they will attack Israel knowing they will face a return nuclear strike that will turn their nation into a sheet of glass?

Umm yes, of course I do. A better question: Do you really believe that they WON'T? Deterrence only works against sane, rational governments.

Hoot said:
We can disrupt their government from within and get far better results, with less casualties, less money, ( which we don't have) and stop instilling the hatred of the U.S. throughout the Middle East.

1. A rebellion is not guaranteed to succeed at all, let alone before Iran gets nukes.

2. It is pure speculation that there would be less casualties and cost less. Iran can still escalate the situation in Iraq or Afghanistan, making it a matter of us launching a full-scale invasion or calling it off. So how does your suggestion avoid that outcome?

3. How would stooges of the Great Satan attacking Iranians stop instilling hatred?
 

DocAR

Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
74
Reaction score
1
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoot
If Iran gets a nuclear weapon...so what? Do you really believe they will attack Israel knowing they will face a return nuclear strike that will turn their nation into a sheet of glass?

Umm yes, of course I do. A better question: Do you really believe that they WON'T? Deterrence only works against sane, rational governments.

I second this.

Iran is run by radical loonies who believe martyrdom to be the key to the front door of heaven. I believe they'll use a weapon, if they are allowed to aquire one.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,430
Reaction score
2,282
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hoot said:
I voted that war would be the worse situation for the U.S.

I've already given one idea about how to possibly solve the problem with Iran...Iran has a shakey government, with many disidents more then ready to create chaos...witness the bombings of just last week in Iran. We can give Iran a bit of a taste of their own medicine...terrorism. Fund these dissidents that are disatisfied with the government of Iran and allow them to strike at the heart of the country. More bombings will lead to internal strife and increase the people's dislike of the government in power.

We can do this for a fraction of the cost of another war...a war that will cause Iran to block the Straits of Hormuz (sp?) and send the price of oil over $100/barrel...creating a crisis in the global economy. Plus, Iran has a far stronger military and will retaliate against our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and send those new-born democracies into the gutter. And you can bet that Iran will use their vast network of terrorists to attack our own shores.

War is absolutely the last choice for Iran. Can you blame them for wanting nuclear weapons? They have neighbors on both the East and West that have been attacked and invaded by the Bush administration. This problem with Iran is a direct result of Bush and his bungling ways in the Middle East.

If Iran gets a nuclear weapon...so what? Do you really believe they will attack Israel knowing they will face a return nuclear strike that will turn their nation into a sheet of glass?

We can disrupt their government from within and get far better results, with less casualties, less money, ( which we don't have) and stop instilling the hatred of the U.S. throughout the Middle East.

Hoot...Another Veteran against the war with Iraq


No. We're not animals. We'll do our killing out in the open, thank you.

Just nuke'm and be done with it. Let 'em learn first hand what nuclear weapons are all about and why we don't want animals having them.
 

GarzaUK

That European Guy
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
3,682
Reaction score
625
Location
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Sanctions would merely provide a means for France, Germany, and Kofi Annan to make a few extra bucks, so why bother?

Actually UN sanctions on Iran would hurt the EU especially Germany and Italy since they do quite alot of trade with Iran. So that is completely false.
 

GarzaUK

That European Guy
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
3,682
Reaction score
625
Location
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
No. We're not animals. We'll do our killing out in the open, thank you.

Just nuke'm and be done with it. Let 'em learn first hand what nuclear weapons are all about and why we don't want animals having them.

Nuking them will not stop them building nukes, so the option is null and void. Plus does the US want to responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people? Bye Bye what is left of your reputation. Iran needs to be dealt with, but nuking them? Come on.
 

Hoot

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
18
Location
State of Confusion
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
There are thousands of Iranian fugitives in Iraq that have repeatedly attacked Iran with rocket attacks on political targets. Thousands of Iranian students booed and heckled the Iranian president when he gave a speech at Tehran University. Polls have shown that 4/5's of the Iranian students want regime change. Unfortunately, Bush's beligerant attitude has shifted much of the dissent into a kind of 'nationalist' pride. If we attack Iran, we will only galvanize this pride into stronger support for the Iranian leaders.

Iran is being attacked by dissidents without U.S. support, so why not support this unrest? We can secretly fund this unrest without direct U.S. intervention. We can have these dissidents directly attack nuclear sites within the borders of Iran.

Just last year, Rice condemned the human rights violations in Iran and yet had words of praise for Saudi Arabia?! (Possibly the worst human rights violaters in the Mid East. What kind of message is this sending to the Iranian people?)

We have Israel with multiple nuclear weapons, and also Pakistan. Yet Bush tells Iran they cannot have a nuclear weapon, while under the leadership of Bush, the U.S. has scuttled multiple nuclear arms treaties and updated its own nuclear arsenal. What kind of message would this send to you if you were an Iranian citizen?

Let me remind all of you that we have no proof that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapon technology...none. If any of you can prove Iran has a nuclear weapon right now, then put up or shut up. Iran is at least a good 3 years away from a nuclear weapon, which gives us time to pursue other avenues.

Don't like my idea for creating terrorism within the borders of Iran? ( and don't tell me the U.S. does its own fighting out in the open, because we have funded multiple uprisings in other nations throughout the years without direct U.S intervention)

How about this? We guarantee the security of Iran and make all 5 established nuclear powers, under Article VI of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, start dismantling their nukes. ( No...I didn't think you hypocritical war-hawks would like that idea)

Or let's say we go to war with Iran? You can bet oil will be over $100/a barrel...you want to pay that price and watch the U.S. economy tumble? Do you want to further inflame the entire Middle East against the U.S.? Do you want to see the struggling democracies of Iraq and Afghanistan go down the toilet? What have our service men and woman died for?

You think Israel can attack Iran effectively? Iran is too far away...an Israeli attack will only delay the inevitable. Only the U.S. has the current capability to attack multiple sites in Iran...with it's Navy and Air Force Tomahawk and cruise missiles. So, the U.S. will take all the blame for launching this attack. Even if we are succesful, Iran has multiple nuclear sites...many underground and many near to highly populated civilian areas.

Gee...that's gonna do one hell of alot to increase U.S. prestige througout the world....when the U.S. kills thousands of innocent civilians.

Again...so let's say Iran gets a nuke? Big frigging deal! If they give the nuke to terrorists and this weapon is set off in a European community, does anyone actually believe this weapon will not be traced back to its source?! The U.S. will know where that weapon came from, and Iran and it's leaders, while they may not fear matrydom, they will fear a loss of power.

Bush is playing his 'ace in the hole' again. FEAR. That's the only card he has left in his hand. ( It got him elected, didn't it?) If we don't stop Iran...look what will happen! Omigawd! We'll all be living in the trees again if we don't stop Iran...one of the 3 axis of evil!!!!

Gimmeabreak. The consequences of war with Iran far out weigh any consequences of allowing Iran self-determination.

Sorry for the novelette, but war is not the answer.
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
A war from the inside is the only way to go. Support and train Iranian defectors who want a free Iran. Beam in “Free Iran” radio and TV signals.24/7.

From what I understand the youth want freedom. Use that.

Will this be easy? No,
Will it be bloody? Hell yes.
 

Hoot

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
18
Location
State of Confusion
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
cherokee said:
A war from the inside is the only way to go. Support and train Iranian defectors who want a free Iran. Beam in “Free Iran” radio and TV signals.24/7.

From what I understand the youth want freedom. Use that.

Will this be easy? No,
Will it be bloody? Hell yes.

At last some words of sanity within this forum. I agree completely. A war within is our best option at the moment.

Forgive me for not trusting Bush with the Iranian problem as I believe he will use Iran to promote FEAR and continue to justify funding the Star Wars program... a program riddled with failures and a huge amount of wasted money. Iran will be another way for Bush to reward his corporate donors.

( Please...I do not want to get into a Star Wars debate, as I believe we face more threat from smuggled 'dirty' bombs within our borders then any attack from the air)
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
cherokee said:
A war from the inside is the only way to go. Support and train Iranian defectors who want a free Iran. Beam in “Free Iran” radio and TV signals.24/7.

From what I understand the youth want freedom. Use that.

Will this be easy? No,
Will it be bloody? Hell yes.

I just don't believe their numbers are that great, we are talking about college age folks here, and how many can that actually be? How many are really going to go against these clerics, the men that have been their only advisor's for so many years? There is something to be said about brainwashing, and I would dare say the majority buy in to this hard line, just look to the Pal's for that percentage, 77% there voted for violence. That said, we should be sending them a message, and the president did just that, but they need to hear another message, get the hell out of there! Israel is not going to stand by and be "wiped off the map" so time is of the essence here, and this will come to blows very soon.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Hoot said:
War is absolutely the last choice for Iran. Can you blame them for wanting nuclear weapons? They have neighbors on both the East and West that have been attacked and invaded by the Bush administration. This problem with Iran is a direct result of Bush and his bungling ways in the Middle East.


Bullshit Iran's nuclear program has been in full effect since the Clinton administration. In fact the surrounding of Iran by Democratic nations is what will eventually lead to a Democratic revolution in Iran.
If Iran gets a nuclear weapon...so what? Do you really believe they will attack Israel knowing they will face a return nuclear strike that will turn their nation into a sheet of glass?

The lesson of Adolf Hitler was supposed to be that when politicians make threats they sometimes mean exactly what they say. The Iranian President has made clear his intentions for Israel. These were not some off the cuff remarks these were planned televised speeches intended to spell out Iran's foriegn policy and intentions to the rest of the world. Your problem is that you don't understand the mindset at work here, Iran is led by religious fanatics who believe that it is gods will to push the Israelis into the sea. Rationality and pragmatism do not play a part in the mindsets of zealots.
 

Hoot

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
18
Location
State of Confusion
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Trajan said:
Your problem is that you don't understand the mindset at work here,

My problem? Your problem is that you don't care or understand about the consequences of another war in the Middle East.
 

Saboteur

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
134
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
A nuclear armed Iran would just give them a stronger voice in the world community.

A war with Iran would probably be more devistating than some blow-hard conservatives can imagine.

Obviously nuclear weapons have become barganing tools.

The insurgents aren't afraid of our nuclear weapons. The Taliban is not afraid of our nuclear weapons. The terrorists are not afraid of our nuclear weapons. China and North Korea may be afraid of our nuclear weapons. But we all know that we cannot use nuclear weapons.

Do people really think that Iran is that crazy?
 

Hoot

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,686
Reaction score
18
Location
State of Confusion
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Consequences? Like the consequences of nuclear winter if Iran is allowed to continue on its present course.

Well..Pakistan started its nuclear weapons program in 1972, and set off a nuclear explosion sometime around 1987. They've threatened nuclear strikes if India's superior military attacks their borders. It's been proven they helped N. Korea with its nuclear program in exchange for missile technology..feel it getting cold in here yet? Where's the nuclear winter? ( Of course, those countries don't have much oil, so the U.S. doesn't care if non-oil producing nations get nuclear weapons.)

I also resent the way you seem so sure of the mindset of the Iranian people and what they will surely do if they gain a nuclear weapon.

My main premise is we still have time to pursue other means, rather then launching a full scale war against Iran...a war that will be devasting to the U.S. in ways we can't begin to imagine... a war that will do nothing to stop Irans pursuit of nuclear weaponry and only further embolden the people of Iran to acquire and use nuclear weapons.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,430
Reaction score
2,282
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
GarzaUK said:
Actually UN sanctions on Iran would hurt the EU especially Germany and Italy since they do quite alot of trade with Iran. So that is completely false.

Oh. If sanctions on Iran would hurt France and Germany, then I'm all for them.
 
Top Bottom