Where is bin Laden? (good stuff here)

[Simon W. Moon]

As far as our alliance with the rebels in Afghanistan, we happened to be in a mortal fight to the death the Soviet Union. If not for the United States, the Soviet Union would today rule the world.

I think that some of the inherent problems with communism would have prevented this. [brace yourself for off topic facile historical analysis] Their asset management and allocation was worse than mediocre. To get things done required the threat of secret police. That's incredibly inefficient when compared to folks doing things because they personally profit from it. Their rock'n'roll and bluejeans sucked. There just weren't hordes of people clamoring to be oppressed. And it's so very expensive to have to go out aqnd get them- especially when they resist.
A combination of the expense and the poor management of resources would have effectively prevented the Soviets from taking over the world.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Was it?
Everyone complains about the money that was spent on Iraq in a war that is less than 2 1/2 years old. Can you imagine the amount lost for the Soviets in 10 years? How much ammunition and equipment were used by the Soviets as a direct result of US actions? Maybe if the US wasn't involved, Afghanistan might have become a Soviet satellite within 3 or 4 years, and its people and resources would be sucked up by, what Reagan called, "The Evil Empire".
Maybe giving aid to the muhajideen was the lesser of two evils, and we just didn't know what they would turn into at the time.

Regardless of what it may have looked like at the time, in retrospect, it's cost us mush more than it was worth. W/o the Afghani Mojahedin and the Arab Afghans, there would not have been 9-11. W/o 9-11 we wouldn't've been apt to go into Iraq.

The tendency for "unfortunate" blowback from coddling tyrants and evil ****ers is well established. The blowback can come to outweigh the short term gains. Yet, we're still doing it.

 

[cnredd]

Regardless of what it may have looked like at the time, in retrospect, it's cost us mush more than it was worth. W/o the Afghani Mojahedin and the Arab Afghans, there would not have been 9-11. W/o 9-11 we wouldn't've been apt to go into Iraq.

The tendency for "unfortunate" blowback from coddling tyrants and evil ****ers is well established. The blowback can come to outweigh the short term gains. Yet, we're still doing it.

Sometimes the only options are 1) sucks....2) really sucks....

 

[Crispy]

Regardless of what it may have looked like at the time, in retrospect, it's cost us mush more than it was worth. W/o the Afghani Mojahedin and the Arab Afghans, there would not have been 9-11. W/o 9-11 we wouldn't've been apt to go into Iraq.

The tendency for "unfortunate" blowback from coddling tyrants and evil ****ers is well established. The blowback can come to outweigh the short term gains. Yet, we're still doing it.

Sure, but what would have been the consequences of a further prolonged arms race? I would think that more pawn states would have needlessly been exploited by the world powers plus the excess expenditures of the Arms race itself.

Perhaps we shouldn't have supported Stalin either but what would the ramifications of that?

And Even in affecting the exact result that was wanted by the majority of the world led to tragedy. I don't think anybody except the Soviet Leadership were unhappy with the fall of the Berlin wall and the break off of the Baltic states, yet that also produced Milosevich.

I think although there's value in drawing conclusions from the past and using hind site, we shouldn't use that as the only benchmark for present and future action.

Oh and somehow I get the impression that Iraq was a target none the less.

 

[robin]

A lot of "bad stuff." That's what gets my goat about Americans who contiually bad mouth America. Is this what they teach you in school now? A case can be made that every human endeavor has a purely selfish motive; every one. But that doesn't mean that we get off the hook because we are human or have human frailties. Hitler's Nazi regime was purely evil to the core. Can you possibly say that our foreign policy through the past few decades even came close. No, you cannot. And you ought to be ashamed to even suggest that.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Real Americans don't bad mouth America.

No no no.... Real Americans DO bad mouth America becuase they are free to & they need to or America could slide into a Nazi like state. Many neo cons are knocking on the door of being fascists & many of their policies in the Americas have backed fascists.
Remember what happened in the 30's in Germany. Hitler gradually grasped the reigns of power just becuase people were no longer allowed to bad mouth Germany cos if they did they's wind up in a concentration camp. That started to happen in America in the 50's with Mac Arthyism (sp)
It's wrong to say 'Just becuase over all the US hasn't been as bad as the Nazis there is no need to be critical'. That's ludicrous !
I think you need to appreciate the need & the privalige you have to be free to bad mouth bad deeds. All that evil men require is for good people to say nothing.

 

[Crispy]

No no no.... Real Americans DO bad mouth America becuase they are free to & they need to or America could slide into a Nazi like state. Many neo cons are knocking on the door of being fascists & many of their policies in the Americas have backed fascists.
Remember what happened in the 30's in Germany. Hitler gradually grasped the reigns of power just becuase people were no longer allowed to bad mouth Germany cos if they did they's wind up in a concentration camp. That started to happen in America in the 50's with Mac Arthyism (sp)
I think you need to appreciate the need & the privalige you have to be free to bad mouth bad deeds. All that evil men require is for good people to say nothing.

While Bad Mouthing america is every american's right, I don't believe that bad mouthing policy does anything more than agitate a situation. Perhaps Constructively criticizing and offering alternative solutions would be a better way of putting it and a better way to address disagreements.

 

[teacher]

Sometimes the only options are 1) sucks....2) really sucks....

3) Sucks like France.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Perhaps Constructively criticizing and offering alternative solutions would be a better way of putting it and a better way to address disagreements.

Sure.
But there's also a need to let fellow Americans that something's wrong. Simple bitching, while not as valuable as offering options, still holds value in that it spread's the knowledge that another solution should be found.

"If no one's complaining, why should we change anything?"
&
The parable of the squeaky wheel.

How're politicians supposed to know they're in danger of being voted out of office?

 

[Crispy]

Sure.
But there's also a need to let fellow Americans that something's wrong. Simple bitching, while not as valuable as offering options, still holds value in that it spread's the knowledge that another solution should be found.

"If no one's complaining, why should we change anything?"
&
The parable of the squeaky wheel.

How're politicians supposed to know they're in danger of being voted out of office?

aight, i'll grant ya that the "contructive criticism" is all that's really required perhaps not the solution. I suppose my beef is the negative spin. I mean lets face it, its not even the issues so much as how people put em that **** me off.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

aight, i'll grant ya that the "contructive criticism" is all that's really required perhaps not the solution. I suppose my beef is the negative spin. I mean lets face it, its not even the issues so much as how people put em that **** me off.

Personally, I can tolerate this sort of thing more readily if I think that the person is being honest. Politicos have a pronounced tendency to rub me the wrong way. I often think that they're being knowingly dishonest. Sometimes, though, I think they're just stupid.
But when it comes to us regular folks, I generally think that we're saying what we genuinely think is right (even when it sounds half-assed to me).
Not always though. There are some folk who go out of their way to troll, of course. But for the most part I think that people genuinely get worked up over things because they believe it's the right thing to do. Unfortunately, being honest doesn't make you right though.

Imagine for a moment that you genuinely believed that the invasion of Iraq was unnecessary and pitched to the public with exaggerations and fabrications. Wouldn't you get a twinge or two at the thought of our folks over there dying for that?

IMHO, not only does every American have the right to vocally and publicly wrong, they have an obligation to be vocal abd public about what they believe despite being wrong. Respresentative government can't do any respresenting w/o an arena of ideas. It's good that wrong things get discussed in the open.

 

[Crispy]

Personally, I can tolerate this sort of thing more readily if I think that the person is being honest. Politicos have a pronounced tendency to rub me the wrong way. I often think that they're being knowingly dishonest. Sometimes, though, I think they're just stupid.
But when it comes to us regular folks, I generally think that we're saying what we genuinely think is right (even when it sounds half-assed to me).
Not always though. There are some folk who go out of their way to troll, of course. But for the most part I think that people genuinely get worked up over things because they believe it's the right thing to do. Unfortunately, being honest doesn't make you right though.

Imagine for a moment that you genuinely believed that the invasion of Iraq was unnecessary and pitched to the public with exaggerations and fabrications. Wouldn't you get a twinge or two at the thought of our folks over there dying for that?

IMHO, not only does every American have the right to vocally and publicly wrong, they have an obligation to be vocal abd public about what they believe despite being wrong. Respresentative government can't do any respresenting w/o an arena of ideas. It's good that wrong things get discussed in the open.

Amen . I guess its my mission to keep the conversation honest. My fear in all of this is, and indeed it seems very apparent that this is true, that the wrong message ends up getting conveyed and ultimately distorts and tranforms the intentions and the truth.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Well, keep in mind that the Afghan war was part of the nail in the Economic coffin for the Soviet Union. Also 10 years earlier the Soviets played that very same deadly game against us.

Soviets were in decline by 80s no doubt but not down for the count yet.

Our support for the Afghans against the Soviets, in retrospect, may have been a mistake. It was a plan conceived by Carter's national security advisor to put them into a Vietnam situation that would drain their military and morale. But we may have conceived a monster in the interim. Hindsight is always 100%. Sometimes I even think the 1991 Iraq Gulf War may have been a mistake. Perhaps we should simply had let Saddam overrun Saudi Arabia. We could have probably kissed the oil goodbye but maybe that would have been a good thing in the long run. If I were running things, I would simply get out of the ME and let those folks solve their own problems. But I don't want them bringing their grievances over here on American soil. Better we live apart in peace than at war trying to live together it seems to me.

 

[robin]

Missouri Mule
"The truth the whole thruth & nothing but the truth"
As long as it's not bad truth about America... right ?
I mean that would be bad mouthing :roll:
Be critical of any country you like folks... but not America :doh

 

[nkgupta80]

thats what I told him, but he thought I was talkin to the wrong guy....

 

[nkgupta80]

Our support for the Afghans against the Soviets, in retrospect, may have been a mistake. It was a plan conceived by Carter's national security advisor to put them into a Vietnam situation that would drain their military and morale. But we may have conceived a monster in the interim. Hindsight is always 100%. Sometimes I even think the 1991 Iraq Gulf War may have been a mistake. Perhaps we should simply had let Saddam overrun Saudi Arabia. We could have probably kissed the oil goodbye but maybe that would have been a good thing in the long run. If I were running things, I would simply get out of the ME and let those folks solve their own problems. But I don't want them bringing their grievances over here on American soil. Better we live apart in peace than at war trying to live together it seems to me.

Thats interesting. But I agree. I think we just need to stop carin about their oil, find an alternative and get out. And by gettin out means get everyone out. Terrorists would loose 3/4 of their recruitments like that. THey just can't hate the US. THe only terrorists left would be the ones who care about Israel, or those who are still brainwashed to think its about religion.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Missouri Mule
"The truth the whole thruth & nothing but the truth"
As long as it's not bad truth about America... right ?
I mean that would be bad mouthing :roll:
Be critical of any country you like folks... but not America :doh

I'm talking about the gratutious and non factual mantra of the left that so many gullible Americans are so quick to pick up on. Like the 3,000 "Eichmans" that that idiot Ward Churchill referred to from 9/11. If one wants to argue the policy of troop levels in Iraq or whether or not it was wise, that is one thing but just to join the other no-nothings who mouth the usual leftist bulloney is what I am referring to. There is a huge difference.

 

[nkgupta80]

no the controversy over whether the Iraq war was relevant is certainly not baloney. THere are very very solid arguments against this war, even if you are in support of this war in terror.

But yes the name calling and the Nazi analogies, and the exaggerations done by liberals is stupid.

 

[robin]

I'm talking about the gratutious and non factual mantra of the left that so many gullible Americans are so quick to pick up on. Like the 3,000 "Eichmans" that that idiot Ward Churchill referred to from 9/11. If one wants to argue the policy of troop levels in Iraq or whether or not it was wise, that is one thing but just to join the other no-nothings who mouth the usual leftist bulloney is what I am referring to. There is a huge difference.

The touble is that for one who profess's to think the truth is important, you seem too quick to dismiss horror stories about US foreign policy in the Americas & elsewhere as 'leftist bulloney' rather than seeking whether or not the stories are true.

 

[SMIRKnCHIMP]

Never heard O.B.L. called that...especially since he isnt even qualified to be a Shiek much less a Mahdi....as far as my opinion as to where he is I believe he is dead....but as long as the "illusion" remains that he is alive then both Bush and the Terrorists(who both need each other) can pursue their own violent agendas



peace

DEAD ???? hahaha ........Who was the make-up artist who did the job on the individual posing as BUSH family Friend OSAMA Binhiden, for the last 2 videos he released?


Dead hahahahaha......Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by cnredd:
Maybe giving aid to the muhajideen was the lesser of two evils, and we just didn't know what they would turn into at the time.

The lesser of two evils is STILL evil!

 

[Zyphlin]

Real quick, just wanted to say something. If you look back at my past posts you can see i'm conservative for the most part but...

...Please don't go on and on and on about how the men and women of our country have been and are fighting for "you're right to critize the government" and THEN tell people they can't critize the government. That is just....dumb