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Where is America's soul

it wasnt just the USSR that was communist. Im talking about Korea and Vietnam. The The USA wouldnt even dare attack Russia either they were too powerful at the time and had just as many nukes. It was a stalemate for a long time. The point was This type of Hype was given before about a certain idea and in fell off. Not by Weapons of war for the most part but bya good old fashion Mexican stand-off.

When it comes to the Soviet Union it was called detente............Knowing that if they attacked us we would retaliate...In this day there is no detente possible........The nutcases that want to destroy us these days don't care if they live or die.............Its a whole new ballgame my friend and I just wish our friends on the left would wise up to that.........

So becoming like the very terrorists that we seek to kill doesnt bother you?

I believe in killing them before they kill me........You don't reason with these people.......they believe we are the infidel and if we don't convert to their way of life we must die......................

Irrelevent, Irrelevent, and Irrelevent.

Your answer has no bearing on the fact that this administration buried its head in the Sand about Osama Bin Laden only to take it out look 180 degrees away from him to Iraq which had zero to do with 9/11.

I believe that OBL is a non factor at this point....If he is not dead he is cowering in some cave in Pakistan, besides before we caught Saddam the left said when are you going to get himmmmmmmWe get him and its no big deal...........Then the left asked when are we going to get Zaquawi.....We get him and the left says its no big they will just replace him with someone else.......The same thing would happen if we got OBL.......

Gore: 50,996,116

Bush: 50,456,169

Sounds like America spoke their mind the first time around.

I have a flash for you.........In this country we elect presidents by the electoral college not by the popular vote.........That said if Bush cherrypiacked a couple of states that he barely loss in 2000 like Gore did in Florida he might have won the popular vote.........

as to his intelligence did you know that he thinks that "Humans and the fish can coexist peacefully." And asks a question "Is our children learning?"



I think you mean Dumb as a box of rocks.;)[/

I love you too.....;)
 
Calm2Chaos said:
If you have AQ connections then you need to be looked at, picked up, interogated. etc etc etc.....

But the defense should at least know of the connections they're being accused of, right?

And you shouldn't be interrogated at all w/o a lawyer present and not held w/o reason and habeas corpus.

(I was talking about americans)
 
Joby said:
But the defense should at least know of the connections they're being accused of, right?

And you shouldn't be interrogated at all w/o a lawyer present and not held w/o reason and habeas corpus.

(I was talking about americans)


If your conspiring with known terrorist, people lookingto do harm to this country. I think you fall more into being a threat to national security. Are you willing to allow a terroroist to go free because of a legal loop hole. It's a tough question, i think there more grey then black and white
 
Navy Pride said:
When it comes to the Soviet Union it was called detente............Knowing that if they attacked us we would retaliate...In this day there is no detente possible........The nutcases that want to destroy us these days don't care if they live or die.............Its a whole new ballgame my friend and I just wish our friends on the left would wise up to that.........

And you think the VietCong in Vietnam care about whether they lived or died either for their cause? Or even the North Koreans or the Cubans? the point is that the same thing was said about Communism in the 60's and 70's as it is said about Islamic Fundamentalists today.


Navy Pride said:
I believe in killing them before they kill me........You don't reason with these people.......they believe we are the infidel and if we don't convert to their way of life we must die......................

So you have no problem becoming just like the terrorists in regards to torture of individuals?



Navy Pride said:
I believe that OBL is a non factor at this point....If he is not dead he is cowering in some cave in Pakistan, besides before we caught Saddam the left said when are you going to get himmmmmmmWe get him and its no big deal...........Then the left asked when are we going to get Zaquawi.....We get him and the left says its no big they will just replace him with someone else.......The same thing would happen if we got OBL.......

I cant even believe the utter audacity behind this statement. Saying that the person who murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11 is not a factor anymore. tell that tot he Families of those 3000 Americans who did die and see what happens. What I am hearing from you and the right is that Osama Bin Laden the mass Murderer of 3,000 Americans is less Important than a person who had nothing to do with the events on 9/11. How dare you not want to do them justice by finding the person who did Murder them but instead going off into some ego trip to Iraq. The utter audacity of this statement makes me sick to my stomach.




Navy Pride said:
I have a flash for you.........In this country we elect presidents by the electoral college not by the popular vote.........That said if Bush cherrypiacked a couple of states that he barely loss in 2000 like Gore did in Florida he might have won the popular vote.........

Yeah unfortunatly we do elect them by electoral college. However, the 500,000+ people who voted for Al Gore over GWB should never be silenced.



Navy pride said:
I love you too.....;)

Gee thanks.;)
 
And you think the VietCong in Vietnam care about whether they lived or died either for their cause? Or even the North Koreans or the Cubans? the point is that the same thing was said about Communism in the 60's and 70's as it is said about Islamic Fundamentalists today.

Huge difference my friend..........When we cut an run in Nam except for the slaughter of millions of Cambodians and Vietnamese that was the end of it.....

If we cut an run in Iraq thousands of Iraqis that were loyal to their government and the terroists will have a base to follow us here......

So you have no problem becoming just like the terrorists in regards to torture of individuals?

I was basically talking about killing terrorists not POWs but let me add if it means saving american lives and possibly preventing another attack on this country I am for whatever it takes and that includes torture if needed....

I cant even believe the utter audacity behind this statement. Saying that the person who murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11 is not a factor anymore. tell that tot he Families of those 3000 Americans who did die and see what happens. What I am hearing from you and the right is that Osama Bin Laden the mass Murderer of 3,000 Americans is less Important than a person who had nothing to do with the events on 9/11. How dare you not want to do them justice by finding the person who did Murder them but instead going off into some ego trip to Iraq. The utter audacity of this statement makes me sick to my stomach.

Of course I would like to see him dead if he is not already dead but if I had my choice I would rather be victorious in Afghanistan or Iraq and free democratic governments establisjed there...........

Yeah unfortunatly we do elect them by electoral college. However, the 500,000+ people who voted for Al Gore over GWB should never be silenced.

I notice you did not mention what I said about the states that Bush lost that were a statistical tie like Florida but he had to much class unlike Gore who tried to cherry pick heavily democratic counties to overthrow the election and he still lost.........

Gee thanks

No problem......;)
 
Part quote by dsanthony

(Bush did not create the terror situation.)

Are you quite certain about this?
Or are you merely opining it as being your own jaundiced view?

If not Bush, then at least Nixon, Reagon, Clinton, Ford, Carter, Bush Snr and yes we must not leave out Jnr.
For far too many years ever since the end of WWII the various US administrations have been trying to alter the World in a way that mirrors their own perception of what Democracy means.

The US has actively encouraged Dictators in South America and ME and Africa and in as many other countries it saw as being within it's sphere of interest, this interest usually being the natural resources of that country that the US desired as having a 'safe' pair of hands in control.

Now I really do not know about you NP & dsanthony, but personally I detest any bully telling me what to do, and likewise I think you will find that the ordinary citizen also dislikes being bullied.
So when eventually some form of Democracy is permitted, these citizens will nearly always vote for those who have held out over the years against a bully.
This is largely why you have S. American countries being ruled by Socialist / Communist regimes.

It is also why there is such an enormous amount of worldwide antipathy towards US administrations of whatever hue.

US administrations and US Politicians may eventually learn a lesson from what their interference and meddling has produced, but somehow I doubt it will be able to do this, at least not short term.

The US should have learned with the lesson that Vietnam gave it, that if you are fighting a terrorist war using techniques successfully utilized in waging WWII you will lose.
US got it's *** thrashed in Vietnam, do not believe the Hollywood propaganda, we got well and truly trashed by an enemy who was less well equipped but was more motivated against any intruder onto it's soil.

I have great respect for US troops and I will support them in whatever arena they are locked in combat.
I WILL NOT support the continued stupidity of some half assed politician who puts these brave troops into harms way without having planned a stratagem that would permit them to return safely home and proud of having completed a successful conclusion to the removal of a nasty piece of work.
In my eyes, Bush is the most dangerous President this country has had since Nixon.
He is also one of the most inept.

I actually am a Republican as I equate Democrats with dumbing down to the lowest level at the greatest cost.

However I find myself unable to actually vote GOP this time.
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All Politicians are Liars
Most Politicians are corrupt.
All Politicians are voted into office by an electorate whose wants and needs are ignored once the Politician assumes office.
 
America's soul is in the hearts of all people of the light everwhere.

Whine is you want too but the miracle of the Americas has brought hope to a World grown weary of subjugation by tryants and Kings.

There are only two kinds of people in this World and only the good know the difference between the two. Which are you?
 
John Dos Passos said:
America's soul is in the hearts of all people of the light everwhere.

Whine is you want too but the miracle of the Americas has brought hope to a World grown weary of subjugation by tryants and Kings.

There are only two kinds of people in this World and only the good know the difference between the two. Which are you?

Amen John..well said. The way to judge any nation is to judge it by how many seek it's light and it's hope. No nation is perfect but America remains a shining city on a hill. :ind:
 
disneydude said:
This inquiry is primarily directed towards Bush Supporters....
And I don't mean this as an insult...but rather a serious inquiry. Convince me that I am wrong. But where has the soul of America gone since GWB took office:

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.

10 years ago we would never have even thought any of these things would be possible in the United States of America.

Convince me if I am wrong...but also be willing to ask yourselves.....if these are the things that we are talking about in America today.....are we heading in the right direction or have we been horribly misdirected?

I am willing to listen.....but please allow me the same courtesy and evaluate the direction this country is headed.....sounds eerily like some places other countries have been and where we do not want to go.....IMHO.

We've done it all before.....none of it's really new or unique to Bush's administration.
 
Disney Dude has probably never been out of La La land.............It may not be perfect but we live in the greatest country in the world no matter how much the left try and find fault with it.....

God Bless the Commander in Chief, our brave troops in harms way and the USA.........
 
A percentage of Americans really don't believe in the values of our Bill of Rights. It's always been that way! Another percentage backed Bush and they don't want to admit they were wrong, so they "Stay the Course" and buy into any explanation that will let them off the hook.

Many Americans need to have one of their children yanked off the street because of a mistaken indentity in "extraordinary rendition" (kidnapping) and tortured in a Black Site in some other country before they understand what is being done to many innocent people today. Remember we are not talking about tried and convicted terrorists, we are talking about people who have never had an opportunity to prove themselves innocent other than talking to CIA or military interrogaters. So, 10 years from now, what percentage of those imprisoned will have be prosecuted as terrorists? 5%? 2%? What do we say to the rest of them? "Sorry about that!" Talk about creating terrorists!
 
CoffeeSaint said:
Personally I think America's soul died during the war in Vietnam: I think that was when the majority of Americans stopped believing their country was a beacon of hope and freedom to the world. Every time I see someone talking about terrorists being animals because they attack innocent civilians, I remember napalm and Agent Orange and My Lai,

Then I'm sure that you remember the millions of South Vietnamese and Cambodians that were killed in the Communist purges because we abandoned our allies so that peace niks like you could feel good about yourselves. How does it feel to care more about your nations enemies than you do our allies?
 
disneydude said:
This inquiry is primarily directed towards Bush Supporters....
And I don't mean this as an insult...but rather a serious inquiry. Convince me that I am wrong. But where has the soul of America gone since GWB took office:

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

Oh contrare monfrare we are discussing if we should take the advice of the left and label anything short of saying: "please Mr. terrorist tell us what you know," as torture or if we should implement coercive interrogation techniques to save the lives of American citizens.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.

No, the left is discussing granting unprecendeted Constitutional rights to alien unlawful combatants when never in the history of this nation have we granted Constitutional rights to POWs who follow the laws of war let alone Unlawful Combatant war criminals. This is not something new this is how it has always been done and to prove that assertion I direct you to the SCOTUS decision of the WW2 ex parte quirin case involving the capture, trial by military commission, and execution of German saboteurs captured on American soil:
U.S. Supreme Court

EX PARTE QUIRIN

317 U.S. 1 (1942)

Ex parte QUIRIN, Ex parte HAUPT, Ex parte KERLING, Ex parte BURGER, Ex parte HEINCK, Ex parte THIEL, Ex parte NEUBAUER. Nos. -- Original and Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7-July Special Term, 1942


"…the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/quirin.html

So why are you trying to destroy the foundations that this country was based on? Why are trying to destroy the rule of law?

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.

No we are discussing listening in on international phone calls with known members of AQ sh!t FDR tapped every international phone call. So again why are you trying to destroy the foundations that this country is based on?

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.

No we are discussing giving people trial by military commission in full concordance with Constitutional and International Law as prescribed by the Ex Parte Quirin, Hamdan V. Rumsfeld, Hamdi V. Rumsfeld, and Rasul V. Bush decisions of the SCOTUS, as well as, Article 3 of the 4th Geneva Convention. And while the military Commissions Act H.R. 6166 may deny Habeas Corpus rights to aliens certified as unlawful combatants (rights that they never had in the first place) they still have the right to challenge their detention in Federal Court by other means:

The New Detainee Law Does Not Deny Habeas Corpus
Fear not, New York Times, al Qaeda’s lawfare rights are still intact.

By Andrew C. McCarthy

There are innumerable positives in the Military Commissions Act of 2006, the new law on the treatment of enemy combatants that President Bush will soon sign. Among the best is Congress’s refusal to grant habeas-corpus rights to alien terrorists. After all, the terrorists already have them.




AL QAEDA TERRORISTS DO GET TO CHALLENGE THEIR DETENTION
But let’s ignore that the critics are wrong about the entitlement of al Qaeda terrorists to constitutional or treaty-based rights to habeas. There is an even more gaping hole in their attack on the new law. Congress has already given al Qaeda detainees the very rights the critics claim have been denied.

Last December, Congress enacted the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA). It requires that the military must grant each detainee a Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT) at which to challenge his detention. Assuming the military’s CSRT process determines he is properly detained, the detainee then has a right to appeal to our civilian-justice system — specifically, to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. And if that appeal is unsuccessful, the terrorist may also seek certiorari review by the Supreme Court.

This was a revolutionary innovation. As we’ve seen, Rasul did not (and could not) require Congress to allow enemy combatants access to the federal courts. Congress could lawfully have responded to Rasul by amending the habeas statute to make clear that al Qaeda terrorists have no more right to petition our courts in wartime than any other enemy prisoners have had in the preceding two-plus centuries. Instead, Congress responded by giving the enemy what are in every meaningful way habeas rights.

For the enemy combatants, habeas corpus, to borrow the Times’s articulation, is simply a “right to challenge their imprisonment” in federal court. So what does the DTA do? It allows a detainee who has been found by the military to be properly held as an enemy combatant to challenge his incarceration in federal court. Under DTA section 1005(e)(2), that court (the D.C. Circuit) is expressly empowered to determine whether the detention is in violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States — which, of course, include treaties to whatever extent they may create individual rights.

Thus, the DTA has already granted to our enemies the very remedy critics claim is now being denied. Moreover, the new Military Commissions Act (MCA) does not repeal the DTA. It strengthens it. That is, because the Supreme Court’s Hamdan decision created confusion about whether the DTA was meant to apply retroactively to the 400-plus habeas petitions that were already filed, the MCA clarifies that all detainees who wish to challenge their imprisonment must follow the DTA procedure for doing so. But, importantly, the right to challenge imprisonment is itself reaffirmed.

That the DTA does not refer to this right as habeas corpus is irrelevant. It’s not the name of the remedy that counts; it’s the substance. The DTA gives the detainee exactly what habeas provides. Therefore, it would have been pointless for the MCA to add yet another round of habeas.

To understand why this is so, one need only consider the legal restrictions on imprisoned American citizens. If they wish to claim their detention is baseless, they are not permitted to file habeas petitions which simply re-allege claims they have already made (or at least had a fair opportunity to make) during prior legal proceedings (such as the appeal of a criminal conviction, or a previously filed habeas petition). Repetitious claims are instantly disregarded by courts as a form of procedural default known as “abuse of the writ” of habeas corpus.

Given that habeas would not be available to an American for the purpose of rehashing a previously unsuccessful challenge to his imprisonment, why on earth should we extend habeas to an alien al Qaeda terrorist so he can re-litigate under the MCA an argument against his detention that has already been heard and rejected by a federal appeals court under the DTA?

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWNlMjg3YWRlNmNjMTk0NDc1NzE0ZWI2YzBlOGRlNzU=

10 years ago we would never have even thought any of these things would be possible in the United States of America.

Well I guess somebody needs a history lesson.
 
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Mr. D said:
A percentage of Americans really don't believe in the values of our Bill of Rights.

Bullshit somepeople just think that the Constitution is a social contract between the Federal Government and the people of the United States rather than an international treaty. Where in the hell did we come up with that crazy idea?
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Bullshit somepeople just think that the Constitution is a social contract between the Federal Government and the people of the United States rather than an international treaty. Where in the hell did we come up with that crazy idea?


Better use a hammer with your sarcasm, Titus, or they might miss your point.
Some people think that our contract with our government is a mere guideline for our federal courts.
 
Joby said:
But the defense should at least know of the connections they're being accused of, right?

And you shouldn't be interrogated at all w/o a lawyer present and not held w/o reason and habeas corpus.

(I was talking about americans)

These rights are not being denied to American citizens the Military Commission only limits the Habeas Corpus rights and the right to trial by jury in open civilian court to alien unlawful combatants not to citizens deemed to be unlawful combatants by military tribunal, H.R. 6166 clearly states that only aliens will be subject to trial by military commission and only aliens will lose their right to Habeas Corpus regardless aliens still have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in federal court through other means.
 
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