Where is America's soul

[disneydude]

This inquiry is primarily directed towards Bush Supporters....
And I don't mean this as an insult...but rather a serious inquiry. Convince me that I am wrong. But where has the soul of America gone since GWB took office:

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.

10 years ago we would never have even thought any of these things would be possible in the United States of America.

Convince me if I am wrong...but also be willing to ask yourselves.....if these are the things that we are talking about in America today.....are we heading in the right direction or have we been horribly misdirected?

I am willing to listen.....but please allow me the same courtesy and evaluate the direction this country is headed.....sounds eerily like some places other countries have been and where we do not want to go.....IMHO.

 

[t125eagle]

ok disneydude..... first off i never have believed the use of torture should be used. so, im going to skip that one. lol.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.
Abraham Lincoln did this in the Civil War, he suspeneded habius corpus in Maryland and some other places and held confederate prisoners of war without a hearing.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.
THis has been argued since the 1930's when the FBI was given permission by the Attorney General to wiretap. it has changed over the years in that J. Edgar Hoover got to do what he wanted to do, without the Attorney General or Congress knowing. that changed prior to the 1960's to where the Attorney General could approve a wiretaping on an individual basis and Martin Luther King Jr. was "bugged". so, its not a new arguement.... even though it seems like it is.
honestly, im not sure about #4 either. but 2 and 3 i am sure about. i hope that helps

 

[cobb]

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

-- "torturing"...hmm, there are some very "liberal" definitions of torture out there. Firstly, we are talking about foreign combatants, members of organizations that wish to do harm to American civilians, not just the government, but innocents. I am quite sure that our Constitution does not protect these outsiders. We have to follow certain guidelines in warfare, but, truthfully, I would give WIDE LATITUDE to those that would extract information from these animals. If they were normal combatants or innocents, it would be different.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.
-- once again, these are not US citizens. They were captured during battle. There are no guidelines. There is nothing illegal about this, or immoral, for that matter.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.
--These discussions have occured during every administration since the technology has existed. This is not new. THe only thing that is new, is that liberals want to make it political. I disagree with ANY spying on American citizens, period. However, I do not feel comfortable snuggling up to liberals who want to politicize intelligence.

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.
-- If this is regarding foreign combatants and/or terrorists, I think I have covered this topic.

JB @ cobbtown.com

 

[Navy Pride]

This inquiry is primarily directed towards Bush Supporters....
And I don't mean this as an insult...but rather a serious inquiry. Convince me that I am wrong. But where has the soul of America gone since GWB took office:

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.

10 years ago we would never have even thought any of these things would be possible in the United States of America.

Convince me if I am wrong...but also be willing to ask yourselves.....if these are the things that we are talking about in America today.....are we heading in the right direction or have we been horribly misdirected?

I am willing to listen.....but please allow me the same courtesy and evaluate the direction this country is headed.....sounds eerily like some places other countries have been and where we do not want to go.....IMHO.

All I have to say to your questions is 9/11/01 changed everything in this country......They will never be the same........

I just wish that democrats and liberals would take there heads out of the sands and realize this.........

 

[disneydude]

All I have to say to your questions is 9/11/01 changed everything in this country......They will never be the same........

I just wish that democrats and liberals would take there heads out of the sands and realize this.........

Oh....I see Navy, you want us to do exactly what the terrorists hope for when they attack us and that is change our way of life and the standards that we upheld. Well, I'm sorry, but American ideals are way too important and the foundation of this country has too much meaning to me than to simply "cut and run" and give in to the terrorists goals.
Give me the America that stands by honor and values or give me death. I will NEVER lower my standards of honor and decency simply for a false sense of security. Apparently, you Navy....believe otherwise.

 

[dsanthony]

The whole debate is useless. POW's have NEVER had a right of habeus corpus. That's a hold over from the Clinton agenda, which views terrorism as a crime rather than an act of war.

And, you're naive if you don't believe "torture" of one kind or another has been used in every war the US has ever fought. We get sanitized views of past wars... I suggest you watch "Band of Brothers" which is probably the best representation of war on film, and shows how summary execution and even torture was often used during the war.

And, like most libs... you view Bush as the enemy and not AQ. Bush did not create the terror situation. He responded to mass murder of US civilians by our enemies.

I can't believe the American people would be dumb enough to put these clowns back in office.... but I'm often surprised by the stupidity of the American people...

 

[Navy Pride]

Oh....I see Navy, you want us to do exactly what the terrorists hope for when they attack us and that is change our way of life and the standards that we upheld. Well, I'm sorry, but American ideals are way too important and the foundation of this country has too much meaning to me than to simply "cut and run" and give in to the terrorists goals.
Give me the America that stands by honor and values or give me death. I will NEVER lower my standards of honor and decency simply for a false sense of security. Apparently, you Navy....believe otherwise.

No not at all, I want you to get it through your thick heads that the war on terror is the biggest crisis this country every has faced..Bigger then any other war and it can not be fought in a kind and sensitive manner or handled as a police action like you and people on the left believe.........If not responded to correctly the war on terror could destroy this country as we know it.....

Whatever it takes to keep us safe must be done........

We should not and we will not ask the French or the Germans for permission to defend or protect this country...........

We must never cut an run from the war on terror like the lefts wants to do.....

That is the best I can spell it out for you but you are so full with hatred for President Bush that you never will get it.....God knows I tried though.....

 

[Navy Pride]

The whole debate is useless. POW's have NEVER had a right of habeus corpus. That's a hold over from the Clinton agenda, which views terrorism as a crime rather than an act of war.

And, you're naive if you don't believe "torture" of one kind or another has been used in every war the US has ever fought. We get sanitized views of past wars... I suggest you watch "Band of Brothers" which is probably the best representation of war on film, and shows how summary execution and even torture was often used during the war.

And, like most libs... you view Bush as the enemy and not AQ. Bush did not create the terror situation. He responded to mass murder of US civilians by our enemies.

I can't believe the American people would be dumb enough to put these clowns back in office.... but I'm often surprised by the stupidity of the American people...

Don't worry they are not and it won't happen............Republicans will lose a few seats in Congress but retain control................

 

[dsanthony]

Well, you're more optimistic than I.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

This inquiry is primarily directed towards Bush Supporters....
And I don't mean this as an insult...but rather a serious inquiry. Convince me that I am wrong. But where has the soul of America gone since GWB took office:

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.

10 years ago we would never have even thought any of these things would be possible in the United States of America.

Convince me if I am wrong...but also be willing to ask yourselves.....if these are the things that we are talking about in America today.....are we heading in the right direction or have we been horribly misdirected?

I am willing to listen.....but please allow me the same courtesy and evaluate the direction this country is headed.....sounds eerily like some places other countries have been and where we do not want to go.....IMHO.

Personally I think America's soul died during the war in Vietnam: I think that was when the majority of Americans stopped believing their country was a beacon of hope and freedom to the world. Every time I see someone talking about terrorists being animals because they attack innocent civilians, I remember napalm and Agent Orange and My Lai, and I wonder how we could remember so much about our country's actions in wars 200 years ago, but not one from 30 years ago.
I think we stopped wanting our country to be the best, because we didn't think we could be the best; at that point, America became Every Man For Himself, and here we are. And I think part of the rage directed at terrorists, at Muslims, at Iraqi and France and every other "enemy" that we now face, comes from the fact that somewhere inside, we wonder if maybe they aren't right, and maybe this actually isn't the greatest country in the world, and maybe we almost deserved to be attacked.

Now watch how loudly people will yell at me, and wonder: is that much anger really righteous? Or is it tinged with self-loathing, maybe just a little?

 

[Adrian]

No not at all, I want you to get it through your thick heads that the war on terror is the biggest crisis this country every has faced..

No it isn't. In fact, it ranks as one of the smallest crises we've ever had. Compared to the Revolution, our capital set on fire by the British, our nation tearing itself apart during the Civil War, the first world war, a dictator with the most advanced army and air force on earth taking over all of Europe, losing 50,000 of our soldiers in Viet Nam, and the threat of global nuclear annihilation during the Cold War, terrorism is peanuts.

Get some perspective. We aren't even at war.

 

[ModerateDem]

All I have to say to your questions is 9/11/01 changed everything in this country......They will never be the same........

I just wish that democrats and liberals would take there heads out of the sands and realize this.........

It changed things that is for sure. But, it never changed the Constitution of the USA nor should it be used as a smoke screen for doing so. This I wish right wing extremists would realize before pointing fingers at the left for opposing right wing policy which would seem to clash with the Idea of Freedom and justice for ALL.

 

[ModerateDem]

No not at all, I want you to get it through your thick heads that the war on terror is the biggest crisis this country every has faced..Bigger then any other war and it can not be fought in a kind and sensitive manner or handled as a police action like you and people on the left believe.........If not responded to correctly the war on terror could destroy this country as we know it.....

didn't Bureucrats of the 60's and 70's say the same thing about Communism? Look what happened to it.

Whatever it takes to keep us safe must be done........

this includes stooping to the level of terrorists?

We should not and we will not ask the French or the Germans for permission to defend or protect this country...........

Purpose for bringing these countries up? Sounds to me like a red herring.

We must never cut an run from the war on terror like the lefts wants to do.....

Who said the "Left" wants to "Cut and Run" form the war on terror. In fact President Bush and the right were the ones who took their eye off the ball and went so far off into foul territory they forgot about Capturing Osama Bin Laden the person who actually attacked us on 9/11.

That is the best I can spell it out for you but you are so full with hatred for President Bush that you never will get it.....God knows I tried though.....

I don't hate president Bush I just think he lacks intelligence. I have however noticed that he is trying to correctly pronounce "Nuclear."

 

[Navy Pride]

No it isn't. In fact, it ranks as one of the smallest crises we've ever had. Compared to the Revolution, our capital set on fire by the British, our nation tearing itself apart during the Civil War, the first world war, a dictator with the most advanced army and air force on earth taking over all of Europe, losing 50,000 of our soldiers in Viet Nam, and the threat of global nuclear annihilation during the Cold War, terrorism is peanuts.

Get some perspective. We aren't even at war.

That is what is really scary.........You Liberals are in a fantasy land and a state of denial........Yesterday North Korea detonated a nuclear device.....These people are crazy....They could sell a dirty bomb to a terroist organization like Alquada or another organiztion and this device place in one in a city like New York or maybe your home town could kill millions and make that city uninhabitable for a 100 years.......

The world changed on 9/11/01 and as soon as you liberals get your heads out of your *** and realize it the better this country will be........

t some perspective. We aren't even at war.[/

Telll that to the 3,000 people that died on 9/11 or our brave men who havd died in Afghanistan and Iraq.........

 

[Navy Pride]

didn't Bureucrats of the 60's and 70's say the same thing about Communism? Look what happened to it.

Yes they did and it was a scary time but there was this position of detente which stated that if you hit us we will hit you back twice as hard............The USSR would not dare attack us under those terms......Its very different today............Radical Islam does not care if the die.......

this includes stooping to the level of terrorists?

I say whatever it takes to keep us safe.........These nuts want to kill us.......That is what a lot of Liberals and Democrats seem to ignore.......

Who said the "Left" wants to "Cut and Run" form the war on terror. In fact President Bush and the right were the ones who took their eye off the ball and went so far off into foul territory they forgot about Capturing Osama Bin Laden the person who actually attacked us on 9/11.

Pelosi, Reid, Dean Murtha

I don't hate president Bush I just think he lacks intelligence. I have however noticed that he is trying to correctly pronounce "Nuclear."[/

You guys always try and bring up the presidents intelligence yet when he and your boy Kerry was at Harvard he had a higher GPA then Kerry and dispite being a very average candidate for President he has defeated your nominee in 2 elections as well as in a midterm election in 2002 which is almost unheard of by a party that is in office........

It looks like to me like the term "Culture of Corruption" you might learn something from this president who is dumb like a fox..........

 

[Adrian]

That is what is really scary.........You Liberals are in a fantasy land and a state of denial........Yesterday North Korea detonated a nuclear device.....These people are crazy....They could sell a dirty bomb to a terroist organization like Alquada or another organiztion and this device place in one in a city like New York or maybe your home town could kill millions and make that city uninhabitable for a 100 years.......

The world changed on 9/11/01 and as soon as you liberals get your heads out of your *** and realize it the better this country will be........



Telll that to the 3,000 people that died on 9/11 or our brave men who havd died in Afghanistan and Iraq.........

You said that terrorism is the biggest crisis the United States has ever confronted. That's what I responding to. So I would like to know how 9/11, for example, comes anywhere close to, say, the Civil War, where the country came this close to tearing itself apart, in the mean while killing half a million American soldiers and countless families, not to mention the razing of entire cities to the ground.

As for this being a war, you'll find that this will play out almost exactly like the War on Drugs: no clear objectives but lots of casualties anyway. You can't fight a war on an emotion.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

This inquiry is primarily directed towards Bush Supporters....
And I don't mean this as an insult...but rather a serious inquiry. Convince me that I am wrong. But where has the soul of America gone since GWB took office:

1. We are now discussing how far we can go in torturing people and stay within acceptable practices.

2. We are now discussing how long we can keep people detained without giving them any kind of hearing.

3. We are now discussing how far we can go in spying on private conversations and stay within constitutional guidelines.

4. We are now discussing how far we can go in giving people a trial but not allowing them to see any of the evidence against them.

10 years ago we would never have even thought any of these things would be possible in the United States of America.

Convince me if I am wrong...but also be willing to ask yourselves.....if these are the things that we are talking about in America today.....are we heading in the right direction or have we been horribly misdirected?

I am willing to listen.....but please allow me the same courtesy and evaluate the direction this country is headed.....sounds eerily like some places other countries have been and where we do not want to go.....IMHO.

10 years ago all of this was being done, it was just secret. And thats eactly where it should have been kept. If you honestly think this country hasn't tortured people for information in the past then I would have to call you naive. If you think we don't have these people uncharged in some hole in the wall jail I would call you naive. If your getting a call from a terrosit nation I have no problem with the government listening in. If your getting a call from a terrorist I have no problem with them listening in. What it takes to keep you safe hasn't changed over the last 50 years dramatically. Your just more aware of it's happenings now.

 

[Navy Pride]

You said that terrorism is the biggest crisis the United States has ever confronted. That's what I responding to. So I would like to know how 9/11, for example, comes anywhere close to, say, the Civil War, where the country came this close to tearing itself apart, in the mean while killing half a million American soldiers and countless families, not to mention the razing of entire cities to the ground.

As for this being a war, you'll find that this will play out almost exactly like the War on Drugs: no clear objectives but lots of casualties anyway. You can't fight a war on an emotion.

That is what is really scary.........You Liberals are in a fantasy land and a state of denial........Yesterday North Korea detonated a nuclear device.....These people are crazy....They could sell a dirty bomb to a terroist organization like Alquada or another organiztion and this device place in one in a city like New York or maybe your home town could kill millions and make that city uninhabitable for a 100 years.......

The world changed on 9/11/01 and as soon as you liberals get your heads out of your *** and realize it the better this country will be........[/QUOTE]


You need to read that my friend.......

 

[Adrian]

That is what is really scary.........You Liberals are in a fantasy land and a state of denial........Yesterday North Korea detonated a nuclear device.....These people are crazy....They could sell a dirty bomb to a terroist organization like Alquada or another organiztion and this device place in one in a city like New York or maybe your home town could kill millions and make that city uninhabitable for a 100 years.......

The world changed on 9/11/01 and as soon as you liberals get your heads out of your *** and realize it the better this country will be........[/QUOTE]


You need to read that my friend.......

Yes, Navy, I heard you the first time. What I find interesting though is that by bringing up the possibility of North Korea selling a nuclear weapon to a terrorist organization or even shooting a nuke at us themselves, it demands a comparison to a period in our history when we faced global nuclear annihilation, thus further invalidating your idea that terrorism is the worst crisis we've ever faced. How about the Cuban Missile Crisis, remember that? Now there was a crisis. So yeah, terrorism sucks and all, but it just doesn't rank very high compared to numerous other crises in our history.

I think we may be debating at cross purposes, though. I think you think that I'm arguing that terrorism is no big deal, when in fact I'm only disputing your claim that terrorism is the worst crisis we've ever faced.

 

[Joby]

The biggest problem I have is not the moral argument, but the liberties one.

Since most of these terrorists don't wear a uniform, is it not possible that we could pick up anybody in Baghdad who speaks out too loudly against the occupation? Then, couldn't we say we have enough evidence but can't release it because it would harm americans? Then, couldn't we say he's a POW anyway, even though he's not wearing a uniform which cancels out his rights as a POW?

Then couldn't we be doing the same thing to americans with "AQ connections"? It's been looked into and it looks like we did, especialy immediately after 9-11.

They probably wouldn't do it because they're a threat, just to keep you scared. watch your neighbors.

AQ is, of course, a big threat.

People who would run over the constitution is bigger.

 

[disneydude]

AQ is, of course, a big threat.

People who would run over the constitution is bigger.

I agree 100%.

The difference between NavyPride and his type and the "liberals" who he loves to condemn is this:

"Liberals" would rather die than live in a country in which our Constitution and way of life are destroyed. A world in which the Terrorists win by infiltrating their fear to such a degree that people in the US are willing to give up our American ideals simply to stay alive.

Navy and his ilk would rather live even if it means giving terrorists this victory.
Navy over and over talks about how we have to change our American ideals/way of life in a post 911 world.

So really the choice is this: Do we continue to fight against terrorism and preserving American traditions and values?
Or
Do we give up our American ideals and forfeit our way of life so that we can stay alive?

To me the choice is clear. If I ever have to live in the type of world that the terrorists want us to I would rather die than live.
Patriotism is standing up and fighting for American values not cowering to terrorists in fear.

 

[Navy Pride]

I agree 100%.

The difference between NavyPride and his type and the "liberals" who he loves to condemn is this:

"Liberals" would rather die than live in a country in which our Constitution and way of life are destroyed. A world in which the Terrorists win by infiltrating their fear to such a degree that people in the US are willing to give up our American ideals simply to stay alive.

Navy and his ilk would rather live even if it means giving terrorists this victory.
Navy over and over talks about how we have to change our American ideals/way of life in a post 911 world.

So really the choice is this: Do we continue to fight against terrorism and preserving American traditions and values?
Or
Do we give up our American ideals and forfeit our way of life so that we can stay alive?

To me the choice is clear. If I ever have to live in the type of world that the terrorists want us to I would rather die than live.
Patriotism is standing up and fighting for American values not cowering to terrorists in fear.[/QUOTE]


1. Its amazing that you can speak for all Liberals....I for one don't think Senator Leiberman agrees with you and there are plenty more..........

2. We do both.....We don't cave to terroists no matter how bad you want to.

3. The terrorists love that kind of thinking......

 

[Calm2Chaos]

The biggest problem I have is not the moral argument, but the liberties one.

Since most of these terrorists don't wear a uniform, is it not possible that we could pick up anybody in Baghdad who speaks out too loudly against the occupation? Then, couldn't we say we have enough evidence but can't release it because it would harm americans? Then, couldn't we say he's a POW anyway, even though he's not wearing a uniform which cancels out his rights as a POW?

Then couldn't we be doing the same thing to americans with "AQ connections"? It's been looked into and it looks like we did, especialy immediately after 9-11.

They probably wouldn't do it because they're a threat, just to keep you scared. watch your neighbors.

AQ is, of course, a big threat.

People who would run over the constitution is bigger.

If you have AQ connections then you need to be looked at, picked up, interogated. etc etc etc.....

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I agree 100%.

The difference between NavyPride and his type and the "liberals" who he loves to condemn is this:

"Liberals" would rather die than live in a country in which our Constitution and way of life are destroyed. A world in which the Terrorists win by infiltrating their fear to such a degree that people in the US are willing to give up our American ideals simply to stay alive.

Navy and his ilk would rather live even if it means giving terrorists this victory.
Navy over and over talks about how we have to change our American ideals/way of life in a post 911 world.

So really the choice is this: Do we continue to fight against terrorism and preserving American traditions and values?
Or
Do we give up our American ideals and forfeit our way of life so that we can stay alive?

To me the choice is clear. If I ever have to live in the type of world that the terrorists want us to I would rather die than live.
Patriotism is standing up and fighting for American values not cowering to terrorists in fear.

Liberal would rather give the country to the terrorist on a silver platter. Giving them all the rights of a citizen as they use them and our freedoms against us. Then as people die they will want to place blame on someone because certain things weren't done to protect them. Liberals want to be protected, they just don't want to know what it takes to keep them safe

The Ilk you speak of want to make it harder for the terrorist in the world to attack the US. To do this they institute programs that aren't actually intrusive to the population as a whole. If you recieve calls from a terrorist or a terrorist nation they want to hear it... IMAGINE THAT....Yet for all there whining and crying I have yet to see the pack of secret police walking down US Streets arresting Huge groups of Americans and placing them in camps.. Did I miss that?? What exaclty are all these rights you have lost. How has your life changed , whats happening now thats any diufferent. Or is it just fun to complain?

Patriotism is actually fighting, and defending your freedom, complaining about those that actually do defend it, is called liberalism.

 

[ModerateDem]

Yes they did and it was a scary time but there was this position of detente which stated that if you hit us we will hit you back twice as hard............The USSR would not dare attack us under those terms......Its very different today............Radical Islam does not care if the die.......

it wasnt just the USSR that was communist. Im talking about Korea and Vietnam. The The USA wouldnt even dare attack Russia either they were too powerful at the time and had just as many nukes. It was a stalemate for a long time. The point was This type of Hype was given before about a certain idea and in fell off. Not by Weapons of war for the most part but bya good old fashion Mexican stand-off.

I say whatever it takes to keep us safe.........These nuts want to kill us.......That is what a lot of Liberals and Democrats seem to ignore.......

So becoming like the very terrorists that we seek to kill doesnt bother you?

Pelosi, Reid, Dean Murtha

Irrelevent, Irrelevent, and Irrelevent.

Your answer has no bearing on the fact that this administration buried its head in the Sand about Osama Bin Laden only to take it out look 180 degrees away from him to Iraq which had zero to do with 9/11.

You guys always try and bring up the presidents intelligence yet when he and your boy Kerry was at Harvard he had a higher GPA then Kerry and dispite being a very average candidate for President he has defeated your nominee in 2 elections as well as in a midterm election in 2002 which is almost unheard of by a party that is in office........

Gore: 50,996,116

Bush: 50,456,169

Sounds like America spoke their mind the first time around.

as to his intelligence did you know that he thinks that "Humans and the fish can coexist peacefully." And asks a question "Is our children learning?"

It looks like to me like the term "Culture of Corruption" you might learn something from this president who is dumb like a fox..........

I think you mean Dumb as a box of rocks.