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Where does the rights hatred of unions come from?????????[W:536]

J

jbander

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It's Interesting the dislike of unions. I support them simply because your choosing between the worker or the business owners and executives. Can you come up with any reason you support corporations over their workers. You do know that the wages of the workers haven't gone up on average for 30 years with production increase of over 80% in that time period . The fact is that it has showed up in corporate profits and not in wages. The corporate heads have seen massive increase in their wages and wealth in that same time period. And the discrepancy in wealth in this country has only one other time that compares to know and that is right before the great depression. If your dislike of unions is because of their evils , you have no case because business history puts unions on the back burner compared to the evils of business historically. What I'm most amazed about is how so many on the right are voting against their best interest.
 



I was in a union. I started at $6.40 an hour and 31 years later left at $33.15 an hour. But my work was seasonal. There I can see a high hourly rate.
 

It's not a matter of supporting corporations over workers, it's matter of not supporting corrupt organizations that artificially inflate wages, making us less competitive in the int'l market and driving jobs overseas. It's hating the fact that unions buy and sell politicians every day of the week. It's hating the extortion that gets used to inflate wages that has destroyed businesses. It's hating the unions support of mediocrity.

It has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in your post. You didn't get one single point right as it relates to why we don't like unions. What you posted was simply projection and trying to create an argument that you thought that you could win by setting the parameters of the discussion so that you didn't have to think. An honest attempt at what you were trying (and failing miserably to do) would have been to ask the simple question "Why don't conservatives like unions?" and avoid all the projection.
 
Ignorance of how the world around them operates and a fundamental misunderstanding of the complexity of economics.
 

I enjoyed being in a union BUT if you do your job and come to work when scheduled and on time , there is little need for a union . Secondly we see the lazy , the druggies , the whiners , taking up all the unions time and money . Third most unions take care of those that are extremely loyal to them in EVERY election and if they THINK you may have voted for someone other than them watch out !!! Fourth every contract there are hidden benefits for top union officials and more and more unions are for two and three tier hiring . Fifth seniority trumps everything and that's what ruins most profitable businesses .
 

Those of us with 401Ks and investments like corporate profits.
 
I have nothing against private sector unions.

I do, however, oppose public sector unions.

The reasons?

1.) Virtual monopoly

The nature of public sector employment, policing, firefighting, teaching, public works, etc, grants public workers a de facto monopoly over the particular service they provide.

If the police union, for instance, goes on strike all policing within a given jurisdiction can, theoretically, come to a complete halt.

Nobody should have that kind of collective power to cripple the voters.

2.) Collective bargaining

Setting wages for a particular government job should be the responsibility, and within the power, of the people that "we the people" have elected to do that job. "We the people" have not, so far as I'm aware, ever voted to allow union officials the power to collectively bargain for our public servants' wages. The same goes for collectively bargaining for public employees' work responsibilities or limits on what public employees are asked to do.

3.) Collusion

Given the above mentioned (unauthorized) power that unions wield, they can and do trade that power for votes. Politicians promise to increase wages and benefits and unions in turn promise to throw votes toward a particular party.

If union wage demands drive up the cost of a Ford Explorer I always have the option of buying from a Ford competitor.

But when it comes to government there is no competitor.

Public sector unions should be eliminated immediately and I will side with the government and the people in breaking the back of public sector unions whenever and wherever I see it happening.
 
tres borrachos said:
Those of us with 401Ks and investments like corporate profits.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, so do defined benefit union pension plans.

Folks might be surprised to find that pension plan administrators don't keep the money under a mattress.
 
Not sure it really matters now.

Between the politics of dealing with unions, and trade agreements undermining private sector unions, and the fiscal impact concerns of public sector unions the issue has become a huge mess. It is not going to get any better, especially as private sector union levels continue to decline while public sector unions continue on another path.

Perhaps the larger concern that we face is if we agree that a middle class in any sense is an economic distortion, then perhaps Libertarians are on the right side of private sector unionization rights people have as an extension of freedom of association. It makes sense to leave the private sector for employers and employees to choose to bargain through a labor union or not, our problem though is the political will to undermine that effort speaks directly to at least the 4th and 3rd income quintile in a decreasing area of production and manufacturing. What remains is the lower 5th income quintile in the service industry especially and the public sector unions where funding for benefits ends up in the political spin machine.

Between Republicans and Democrats going back to before Bill Clinton, the damage to private sector unions is going to be painful to undo without real economic consequences across the board. To put those distortions back to levels we saw in prior generations will price too many people right out of the labor force.
 
I think it came from a lot of strikes during the 70's over what most considered to be unreasonable demands, coupled with proof of rampant corruption with-in the unions and poor work with a lot of featherbedding. The union bosses very often where all about power and privilege for themselves, they were not orientated towards the men and women who did the work, which destroyed the brotherhood. Think about it, automakers for instance striking even though they were already making about triple the average american wage, and the cars they made were crap to boot, that was a lot to forgive.
 
soot said:
Oddly enough, so do defined benefit union pension plans.

Folks might be surprised to find that pension plan administrators don't keep the money under a mattress.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure who thinks they do.
 
If you're talking about the political right hating unions, it might be partially due to the fact that virtually every union donates to and funds Democrat candidates almost exclusively, with many union executive members using their positions to get into Democrat politics. Many union members, who happen to be Republicans, hate their own unions for the very same reason.
 
Hive mentality where individualism does not exist. It's almost cult-like.

A family member of mine belonged to a teacher's union. Barely 5 years in, he was only interested in job security at that point. A steady salary was more important than an increased one. What did his hive-mentality union do? They went on strike for higher wages. His interests were tossed to the wind in favor of the hive. He had to get a part-time job to survive. During the last presidential election, the cult leade...err...union bosses dictated who "the union" was going to vote for. Regardless of his individual leanings, "the union" was all that mattered. He eventually left the union, and refused to work with another. That hive mentality is nothing but a tool for extortion.

I wonder how many union members would better themselves, if they were allowed to negotiate their wages based on their skills? Then again...I wonder how many union members would utterly fail, by that same token.
 

I have a cousin who's a steamfitter. Union guy for 30 years. He supported McCain & Romney, and caught so much **** for it that he kept getting into fights. He said his union is insufferably intolerant of its members who don't support the Democratic nominee.
 

Police and firefighters are prohibited from striking in almost every state. And in many states it goes beyond just "safety personnel" as well, such as teachers, and sometimes almost if not all public employees.

Employees still have the right to organize no matter what employee you are. This is a fundamental law protected by the first amendment and the freedom of association. We elect people who dictate budgets for those organizations, true, but that does not mean those people who are affected by that budget have no right to raise their voice either... Thats essentially what they are doing...

3.) Collusion

Given the above mentioned (unauthorized) power that unions wield, they can and do trade that power for votes. Politicians promise to increase wages and benefits and unions in turn promise to throw votes toward a particular party.
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And politicians do this with businesses, and all sorts of citizens be them public sector unions or not. Its an aspect of democracy, "Vote for me because I will do XXXX to benefit you".

If union wage demands drive up the cost of a Ford Explorer I always have the option of buying from a Ford competitor.

But when it comes to government there is no competitor.
Click to expand...
Thats true... But in cases of some services provided by the government there are. Teachers are the fist thing that comes to mind.

Public sector unions should be eliminated immediately and I will side with the government and the people in breaking the back of public sector unions whenever and wherever I see it happening.
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Violates the constitution.
 

I was a member of Ironworkers local 97 for nearly 30 years. Our contractors loved the arrangement- if you were starting a job tomorrow you called the hiring hall and tomorrow morning a crew of trained and qualified tradesmen showed up. Apprentices are indentured to the Union and the Union administers the pension plan and medical benefits package. Job's finished, the men sign back into the hall. You could name-request 50% of the crew and 'toolbox' those you wanted to keep around for the next job.
It's a classic win-win.
 

well, i'm no righty, but i absolutely abhor public sector unions.... they should be banned outright.

i'm fine with private sector unions.. but i realize they won't get much support from the right until they stop being the finance wing of the Democratic party.

even if rank and file republicans agree on union issues, politicians hold views on a myriad of other issues.... so you're basically asking these rank and file folks to not only vote for people they disagree with, but also hand over money to them.

in additionally, labors concern aren't the only concerns at play in the universe.... reasonable people understand business/management have valid concern/interests as well.... unions don't care at all about those concerns, .. only their own.
unions haven't quote figured out that labor and management is a symbiotic relationship...they are stuck in the 17 century adversarial mindset.
if they grow up and join the modern world, they might make a comeback... if they stick to their same old guns, they will not ... they will die out, except in the public sector, where their very existence depends on a conflict of interest.

the best thing unions could do to gain wide appeal is to get out of bed with the Democratic party.... because, right now, they are inseparable... they are one in the same.... this hurts them far more than it helps.
 
Private unions can be successful. Collective bargaining is a right that should be guaranteed. They're writing their own tombstone, however. If you skew the market so that you're getting paid above market wages your jobs will eventually go away. You can ask your friendly automated checkout scanner at your supermarket. He never complains, never takes breaks and you don't have to put his kids through college.

As someone stated about, the downsize is their outright purchase of politicians. Its interesting to see those who bitch and moan about corporate political contributions but seem to support union contributions because "Corporations bad, unions good. Derp". They're both monied interests that can control politicians. Ask California about union political power and its effect on city budgets.
 



The Iron workers in BC have always had a stellar reputation. I see the spaceship they crafted for Expo 86 a couple of times a week. Were all unions like them no one would have a problem. My issue is the public sector unions who hold the public hostage in their wage demands.

I was a member of union only once, an independent run by idiots. In 86 times were tough, and they went on strike over 2%, which became 1% after ten weeks of strike, and senior guys like me 'red circled', wages frozen until the new schedule catches up. The television station saved ten weeks worth of wages and lost the strong viewership we had built, the union members lost ten weeks wages. The station never recovered, tanked in the ratings and the top people, red circled, all got better jobs.

Considering I had worked over 20 years with nothing but a handshake, I found the union experience disappointing
 

1. "Artificially inflate wages"? It's called using the freedom of association to raise the bargaining power of workers until it's more on par with large employers' bargaining power. Otherwise, they're stuck with the minimum wage or whatever their employers deign to grant them.

2. Less competitive against whom in terms of worker wages? Europe? China? India? Sure, we could get rid of unions and the minimum wage, but it will be a miserable race to the bottom.

3. Buy and sell politicians? You mean unlike the rich people whose taxes you constantly want to slash? Unlike the employers who have to bargain with unions?






I see nothing wrong with private sector unions as a general proposition. Maybe talk about specific ones if you want to highlight wrongdoing.

Public sector unions is a different story, but that's because the taxpayer pays their wages, but they're bargaining with appointed/hired officials not directly accountable to the taxpayer.
 

Ah, the ole' argument by right winger with a prosecution complex anecdote fallacy.
 
Absentglare said:
Ah, the ole' argument by right winger with a prosecution complex anecdote fallacy.
Click to expand...

Your utter inability to follow along with posts and to stop making things up that nobody ever even hinted at never ceases to amaze me.
 
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