Where do we go from here?

[ecofarm]

I also question what constitutes a living organism based on viruses and even prions.

I question it based on the fact that inanimate objects can influence people in very real and transforming ways. Deep ecology holds this belief. Unfortunately, it does so excessively and to a supernatural extent, going as far as to say being 'moved by a landscape' (so to speak) is a prerequisite to enlightenment. Zen Buddhism and Animism, of course, also see life and influence among inanimate objects.

I also question it based on its rather temporal assumptions that are just a bit too absolute. For instance, a carbon molecule in my body is alive at the moment. When I die, it will be dead for a bit and then incorporated into a living organism and suddenly, kinda magically, it is "alive" again. There's something shady about that.

But I find you views perfectly reasonable. And a hell of a lot less bizarre than mine, too. :lol:

I'm a vegan ecocentrist who ascribes lightly to Deep Ecology and might find himself being an apologist for ELF. Not so weird, right? But combine it with ex-paratrooper (I still believe in the service whole-heartedly) and political hawk and we start to move into the realm of free-thinkers.


ps. I'm considering quoting this to my introduction thread, as it is quite descriptive. That wouldn't be weird, right?

 

[The Uncola]

hmmm.... well let's see how the logic holds up:

some people are convinced that Blacks are fully human, and deserving within their rights. I would never force someone believing this way to alter their opinion, or own a slave.

However, others don't buy into said premise, and as such, shouldn't be forced to give up their property when they decide it does not have said 'rights'.

..... no, i'm thinking the logic doesn't hold. basic human rights are not much of a "well take them or don't as you will" sort of matter. that's why they are rights.

A false analogy.

Slavery is illegal, abortion is not.

Fail.

 

[Chuz Life]

A false analogy.

Slavery is illegal, abortion is not.

Fail.

Aparently you don't understand the criteria for determining what is and what is not a "false analogy."

The current or past legal status the issues is not what CP was making a comparisson of.

 

[Tucker Case]

I question it based on the fact that inanimate objects can influence people in very real and transforming ways. Deep ecology holds this belief. Unfortunately, it does so excessively and to a supernatural extent, going as far as to say being 'moved by a landscape' (so to speak) is a prerequisite to enlightenment. Zen Buddhism and Animism, of course, also see life and influence among inanimate objects.

I also question it based on its rather temporal assumptions that are just a bit too absolute. For instance, a carbon molecule in my body is alive at the moment. When I die, it will be dead for a bit and then incorporated into a living organism and suddenly, kinda magically, it is "alive" again. There's something shady about that.

Very nice to meet you, eco! Your example of the carbon molecule is something that I have actually thought about quite a bit. I once told my wife that when we drink water, we're actually just drinking purified dinosaur piss, when you think about it. :lol:

I look forward to having soem interesting discussions with you. Welcome to DP.

I'm a vegan ecocentrist who ascribes lightly to Deep Ecology and might find himself being an apologist for ELF. Not so weird, right? But combine it with ex-paratrooper (I still believe in the service whole-heartedly) and political hawk and we start to move into the realm of free-thinkers.

OK, your views are just as bizzare as mine. :2razz:

ps. I'm considering quoting this to my introduction thread, as it is quite descriptive. That wouldn't be weird, right?

Weird is good. :mrgreen:

 

[The Uncola]

:shock:

Interesting take.

Someone with a thinner skin than might take that as condescending. You weren't being condescending, were you? :shock:

Can you please tell me how a person who believes that an abortion is the unjust killing of a child should behave differently than the way I myself and others are behaving?

Disclaimer: From this point on, I am using you in the generic, not the personal.

I would, for starters, suggest you refrain from insulting the intelligence of those you don't agree with on the topic by thinking that playing silly semantic games is going to change their minds. It won't. The same applies to the appeals to emotionalism by tagging things with labels that don't truly apply.

I would also suggest that you understand that claiming the "higher moral ground," isn't the same thing as actually owning it. Like it or not, there are many that see a multitude of truly evil things in this world, but not bringing an unwanted dependent into a bad situation, isn't one of them. Our opinion is equally valid to yours and self-righteous browbeating won't change it.

If "pro-lifers" wants to convince me that their real motive is a genuine "concern for the children" and are not just being busybodies, more interested in controlling others and forcing their beliefs on others, then let me know when all of the kids ALREADY born in this world are being fed, educated, have decent health care, and are living in nurturing, loving homes. I see very little evidence that their
"concern for the children" extends past the end of gestation.

I have had people tell me in debates past that if I truly believe children are being killed by abortions,... that I should be burning clinics, calling 911 and even taking matters into my own hands in other violent ways.

I have absolutely no idea what in the world this irrelevant nonsense has to do with me. Have I ever a suggestion for anyone to act this way?

I prefer to fight it the way we have been, here.

ok

With civility and respect for the fact that some people just don't understand what an abortion really amounts to.

There in, lies the rub. For some reason, you are utterly convinced that if people just understood "what an abortion amounts to," they would HAVE to agree with your OPINION. And that sir, is a direct insult to a thinking person's intelligence.

 

[The Uncola]

Aparently you don't understand the criteria for determining what is and what is not a "false analogy."

The current or past legal status the issues is not what CP was making a comparisson of.

Why do you insist on pretending to be able to read my mind?

I understand EXACTLY waht a false analogy is. This is one. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that.

 

[Chuz Life]

: I prefer to fight (deal with the abortion issue) the way we have been, here.

With civility and respect for the fact that some people just don't understand what an abortion really amounts to.

There in, lies the rub. For some reason, you are utterly convinced that if people just understood "what an abortion amounts to," they would HAVE to agree with your OPINION. And that sir, is a direct insult to a thinking person's intelligence.

That's not true either.

I have offered compromises in the past where I take the position that if people would just accept the fact that an abortion kills a child (a person in the fetal stage of their life),.... they can have all the abortions they want and for any reason they want.

The biggest aspect of the issue for me is the DENIAL that an abortion kills a child.

I can deal with the inhumanity, the mean, selfish and nasty way that one person treats another.

But I have a hard time accepting their ignorance and denials about what they are doing.

If a woman doesn't want her child?

Deliver it alive,... place it in her arms and say.

"You kill it."

But don't try to force me to abide by YOUR ignorance of the fact that it's a child.

 

[The Uncola]

That's not true either.

I have offered compromises in the past where I take the position that if people would just accept the fact that an abortion kills a child (a person in the fetal stage of their life),.... they can have all the abortions they want and for any reason they want.

The biggest aspect of the issue for me is the DENIAL that an abortion kills a child.

I can deal with the inhumanity, the mean, selfish and nasty way that one person treats another.

But I have a hard time accepting their ignorance and denials about what they are doing.

If a woman doesn't want her child?

Deliver it alive,... place it in her arms and say.

"You kill it."

But don't try to force me to abide by YOUR ignorance of the fact that it's a child.

In other words, accept your position as the only valid one.

Not gonna happen.

(BTW, way to sidestep the meat of my answer to your post. Makes me regret wasting the time I took to explain my thoughts. I'll keep that in mind the next time you ask me questions.)

 

[Chuz Life]

In other words, accept your position as the only valid one.

Not gonna happen.

(BTW, way to sidestep the meat of my answer to your post. Makes me regret wasting the time I took to explain my thoughts. I'll keep that in mind the next time you ask me questions.)

If you want a specific response to something,... follow up, ask a better question , point it out.

I'm notgoing to engage in a tit for tat with every line on every post with multiple posters at the same time.

 

[Djoop]

Well, from here we go nowhere for the simple reason you´ll never be able to convince people these zygote-killers ought to go to jail Chuz. If you value life maybe you could find some other objectives people are more likely to support. Let´s talk about the quality of life.

Personally, I find my right to live as natural as my right to die, or to terminate something that´s growing on my body and causing me pain.

 

[Chuz Life]

Well, from here we go nowhere for the simple reason you´ll never be able to convince people these zygote-killers ought to go to jail Chuz. If you value life maybe you could find some other objectives people are more likely to support. Let´s talk about the quality of life.

:shock:

This is the "abortion" forum.

This is not the "quality of life" forum.

 

[Djoop]

:shock:

This is the "abortion" forum.

This is not the "quality of life" forum.

I see a correlation. Anyway, what are you suggesting as a proper punishment, I say hang em high!

 

[The Uncola]

If you want a specific response to something,... follow up, ask a better question , point it out.

I'm notgoing to engage in a tit for tat with every line on every post with multiple posters at the same time.

" a specific response to something"????

I responded to what you said to and asked of me. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

 

[Chuz Life]

I see a correlation. Anyway, what are you suggesting as a proper punishment, I say hang em high!

As it is with any other manslaughter case,... there are several factors to be considered.

And it would probably differ from State to State.

 

[Djoop]

As it is with any other manslaughter case,... there are several factors to be considered.

And it would probably differ from State to State.

Why not murder?


Manslaughter may involve an unintentional killing but with a wilful disregard for life, right?

 

[Chuz Life]

Why not murder? Manslaughter may involve an unintentional killing but with a wilful disregard for life, right?

Murder,..murder for hire, manslaughter,... whichever one is deemed applicable by the prosecuter.

Is there a point to this?

 

[Chuz Life]

" a specific response to something"????

I responded to what you said to and asked of me. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

My bad,...

I got the impression you were looking for a response from me.

I gather you are not.

 

[The Uncola]

My bad,...

I got the impression you were looking for a response from me.

I gather you are not.

Actually I was, but it seems that you will only respond selectively and avoid that which doensn't fit your preconcieved agenda. Which of course, speaks to the very reason you had to start this thread. You refuse to allow even the possibility that any view outside your own, just might be valid. As such, we have reached an empass(sp?).

 

[Chuz Life]

Actually I was, but it seems that you will only respond selectively and avoid that which doensn't fit your preconcieved agenda. Which of course, speaks to the very reason you had to start this thread. You refuse to allow even the possibility that any view outside your own, just might be valid. As such, we have reached an empass(sp?).

I invited you to restate your question or to link to it,...

The invitation stands,... I don't intentionally dodge any question no matter how difficult it may be to answer. (other than private/ personal info)

But I'm not going to go back and re-read our exchanges trying to figure out what it is that you feel I missed.

 

[Djoop]

Murder,..murder for hire, manslaughter,... whichever one is deemed applicable by the prosecuter.

Is there a point to this?

It´s important people realise how far you´re willing to take this. Not only do you want to bann abortions, you want to criminalise those who had one. Even an unintentional killing could lead to a conviction on manslaughter, a miscarriage could lead to a criminal investigation.

 

[Chuz Life]

It´s important people realise how far you´re willing to take this. Not only want do you to bann abortions, .

Are you having an epiphany?

You're not are you?

 

[The Uncola]

I invited you to restate your question or to link to it,...

The invitation stands,... I don't intentionally dodge any question no matter how difficult it may be to answer. (other than private/ personal info)

But I'm not going to go back and re-read our exchanges trying to figure out what it is that you feel I missed.

That would be post #30. I don't do so well with "links."

 

[Chuz Life]

That would be post #30. I don't do so well with "links."

Was I being condescending?

No,..

well maybe a little.

 

[The Uncola]

Was I being condescending?

No,..

well maybe a little.

Well, this is going nowhere. Why am I not surprised?

Bye.

 

[Djoop]

Are you having an epiphany?

You're not are you?

Of course not Chuz, wine may change in water but it could not make me love you more.