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Where are Christians getting their pro-life message from? The bible itself isn't even pro-life.

Josie said:
Now you understand why some people are against most abortions. It's absolutely disgusting and repulsive to be for it. What kind of messed up laws are those?
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Great reasoning...now, let's see if he gets it...
 
Spunkylama said:
I will not entertain the notion that abortion is the same as killing a baby which is alive. It's not the same and the laws agree with me. The end
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I didn't say you would think of it as the same. You are claiming to want to understand why pro-life people think they way they do. I just showed you.
 
Elora said:
Great reasoning...now, let's see if he gets it...
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Oh I get it. "She" see's that you are arguing that a fetus is a baby and that just isn't true.
 
Spunkylama said:

Where are Christians getting their pro-life message from? The bible itself isn't even pro-life. Christians need to start being honest with themselves and admit the pro-life movement was NEVER about life, but about punishment of those considered sexually immoral, specifically women.​

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According to Exodus 21:22-25:

The bible clearly suggests a fetus is not a human being, nor is killing it murder, because the penalty for killing a fetus is less than the penalty for killing an actual person. That's pro-choice, not pro-life, because the bible here is clearly saying abortion is not murder.
The Christian pro-life movement was never about life given the bible is not even pro-life itself. Instead it's about punishment. They want immoral (i.e. sexually active) people punished for not being as sexually restrained as they are.
Christians are obsessed with punishment, specifically punishment of women. Men do not suffer any immediate or personal consequences because of pregnancy, so are exempt. Men only have responsibilities that may be legally required after birth. This makes the pro-life movement a deeply misogynist and anti-life one (since they want to ruin the lives of the women making choices the Christian pro-lifers disapprove of).

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This scripture makes it very clear. It's demonstrated in the particular analogy He chose when considering another issue.

God values women more than the unborn and in this analogy, He chose to describe how the unborn are transient and insubstantial to make a point. He's very clear:
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Psalms 58:8: May they be like a slug that melts away as it moves along, like a stillborn child that never sees the sun.​
 
Spunkylama said:
Okay, let's say this is how Christians interpret it.
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That is the meaning of the text.

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22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[d] then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.​

The Hebrew for "come out" here is yatsa, and that term generally refers to live birth (Gen 25:25; 38:28-30; Job 3:11; 10:18; Jer 1:5; 20:18), and the word for "child/children" is yeled, which never refers to anything other than a living child. The word for "miscarriage" - shakal - is not used.

So, what this text says is that, if two men are fighting and hit a pregnant woman, causing her to go into labor, but everyone is healthy, then the one who hit her gets fined. If, however, there is harm - according to a direct reading of the text, to the woman or the child - then the man shall pay life for life, eye for eye, wound for wound.


Spunkylama said:
Do you believe that non Christians should be forced to live by your holy book?
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Everyone has things that are in Scripture that they think should be in law. "Thou Shalt Not Steal", comes to mind. It is not a question of whether Scripture should be put into place of Secular law, but, rather where should Secular law overlap with scripture. That something is in Scripture is not a reason to keep it from law.
 
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Josie said:
Control myself from explaining what you're claiming to want to understand? Weird.
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Euh control yourself from asking questions like if I am okay with killing newborns. I might be wrong but I do believe that saying such things is a no no in here. It also falls under the Don't be a jerk rule.
 
Spunkylama said:
Euh control yourself from asking questions like if I am okay with killing newborns. I might be wrong but I do believe that saying such things is a no no in here. It also falls under the Don't be a jerk rule.
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Okay? Report it.

You clearly didn't get it.
 
Elora said:
You didn't get that, either...lol...it's clearly over your head...
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If you think killing God's creatures is pro-life you would be mistaken.
 
But for whatever reason, the Bible provides no definitive ruling on the subject. It neither affirms a right to life for the fetus nor a woman’s right to choose.

Such putative rights have a place in modern discussion. Everyone in the modern world, regardless of religious commitment, is shaped by the legacy of the Enlightenment, which gave us the discourse of human rights. Christians can point to a long tradition of condemnation of abortion, dating back to the period just after the New Testament, and may reasonably feel that this tradition carries weight.

But there is no line to be drawn from Trump’s Bible display to a Supreme Court justice who may overturn Roe. v. Wade — or rather no line that is not heavily overdrawn by politics. But Christians who turn to Scripture to trump a political debate with the force of biblical authority should be reminded that the Bible does not actually say anything at all on the topic. On this issue, there is no divine revelation to be had.

religionnews.com

What does the Bible really say about abortion?

(RNS) — Christians who turn to Scripture to trump political debates on abortion should be reminded that the Bible does not actually say anything at all on the topic. On this issue there is no divine revelation to be had.
religionnews.com religionnews.com
 
Spunkylama said:
But for whatever reason, the Bible provides no definitive ruling on the subject. It neither affirms a right to life for the fetus nor a woman’s right to choose.

Such putative rights have a place in modern discussion. Everyone in the modern world, regardless of religious commitment, is shaped by the legacy of the Enlightenment, which gave us the discourse of human rights. Christians can point to a long tradition of condemnation of abortion, dating back to the period just after the New Testament, and may reasonably feel that this tradition carries weight.

But there is no line to be drawn from Trump’s Bible display to a Supreme Court justice who may overturn Roe. v. Wade — or rather no line that is not heavily overdrawn by politics. But Christians who turn to Scripture to trump a political debate with the force of biblical authority should be reminded that the Bible does not actually say anything at all on the topic. On this issue, there is no divine revelation to be had.

religionnews.com

What does the Bible really say about abortion?

(RNS) — Christians who turn to Scripture to trump political debates on abortion should be reminded that the Bible does not actually say anything at all on the topic. On this issue there is no divine revelation to be had.
religionnews.com religionnews.com
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Maybe you are looking for politics...it's thataway....------------->
 
Elora said:
Maybe you are looking for politics...it's thataway....------------->
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Unfortunately it's a poltical issue and if you didn't notice, my thread. So, yeah..
 
EdwinWillers said:
Read Numbers 5:11-31 - this is the passage some claim is talking about your "recipe for abortion."

What it IS talking about is a test for adultery, where the man believes his wife may have been unfaithful - the gist of the test being having the woman drink some holy water mixed with dust from the floor of the tabernacle and if it causes her stomach to swell and her thigh to waste away then she failed the test. And if she doesn't fail the test, then she's to be considered faithful and will be free to conceive children.

Note that the test has nothing to do with being pregnant - indeed, if the concoction she drank were some sort of ancient RU486 precurser, then it would've aborted her child regardless her innocence or guilt - hardly a fair test.

Moreover, she drinks the concoction - it goes into her stomach, not her womb, and causes her stomach (or abdomen - the two are used interchangeably), not her womb to swell. And what the thigh wasting away has to do with abortion is anyone's guess.

So no, there's no "recipe for abortion" in the bible.
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Thanks for sharing your interpretation of that passage.

My interpretation is different.
 
Josie said:
Do you disapprove of newborns being killed because of religion or politics?
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I already responded to this. Goodbye
 
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