Where are Christians getting their pro-life message from? The bible itself isn't even pro-life.

[Crunchtime]

Science vs. Bible: When Does Life Begin?

There are Bible verses supporting the idea that life begins at conception, but do science and medicine line up with our faith-based claims?

www.focusonthefamily.com

 

[tosca1]

Refer to my posts.

Provide evidence for a god then.

I am referring to your posts!

I have given some. One of them - the biblical statements that were reaffirmed as facts by science - is one of them!
Have you answered this question?
How could those ancient people have known about the stretching universe, the springs under the ocean, etc, which had taken science thousands of years to discover?


Science had to wait for advanced technology! Like powerful telescopes, and..................... Alvin!
And yet, those ancient "goat-herding-cave-dwellers" didn't even have binoculars, or snorkeling gears.
You guys can't seem to grasp that.


Lol - those kind of infos reaffirmed by science, are things that only the Creator would know!



You're confusing evidence for proof!

My series focuses more on the plausibility of religious stories and provides possible explanations and alternatives. I'm not the one saying or implying "god did it" and calling that fact.

The series may be serious to you, however - so many things has gone over your head!
You have not really approached your series in an OBJECTIVE way, that's why they ended up looking........................................ JUVENILE!

The only thing that you've proven with your series is that yes, indeed - atheism requires a closed mind!


That's why........
You'll never make it in forums - or, anywhere - debating about the existence of God.

 

[tosca1]

They are no more evil than you are - and are no more motivated by evil intent than you are.

You're saying, I'm evil.
Which begs the question - what did I do to be compared, and labelled as such evil?

They are simply, horrifically, wrong.

That's what I'm saying!
......................................like.............................. "Hitler" wrong!


You're saying Hitler didn't do anything that can be described as...............evil?

Or............................you're saying, there's no such thing as evil?





Can you please take a seat and think things thru.
You're now talking gibberish.

 

[tosca1]

From a practical perspective, because, if you do not understand the actual arguments someone else is making, you cannot convince them;

From a practical perspective, I do understand the actual argument given that the unborn is not human!

You cannot appeal to a person who's determined to see his way - to push abortion - even if it means making the unborn inhuman!

specifically, if you do not understand an argument that appeals emotionally to those in the middle who are winnable, you will not win them.

When it comes to justice - it's not about emotions.
Emotion isn't a substitute for evidence!

If you would like to repel a majority, and ensure that abortion continues, one of the best ways to do that is to appear unhinged and

The one who is unhinged would be the one who doesn't makes sense.
The one who doesn't know where he actually stands.

From a Christian perspective, because we are called on to love them, and part of that is understanding, which we are called to do.
Matthew 10:16 - “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

From a Christian perspective -

Who made you judge of people's hearts?
Motivations?


Yes, read this again:

2 Cor 10:5 - " We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ"

 

[tosca1]

I am telling you that if you assume that they do not have the motives they tell you the do, then you are the one bereft, not them, and that the cause you wish success for is made weaker by your being the face of it where you go, when you do so.

I have not asked you for advise on how to tackle Pro-Choice............................. have I?
And I don't think I've interfered with your style, either.


You are an activist for Pro-life. So, am I.
Do what you think is best for you.
Do it your own way.

Don't dictate on others how to do theirs.



Look - what you've achieved is have us two pro-lifers (and, two Christians to boot), debating each other - looking like fools BEFORE EVERYONE!
Not only have you made it your business to unfairly judge me.................but, you have detracted us from our goal.
Though we do things differently - we have the same goal.
We are both fighting for the unborn.


Mind your own business - in this case, your own style of doing your pro-life activism.
That's a Christian advise.


Leviticus 19:16
You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

1 Thes 4:11
And to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you,

What Does the Bible Say About Busybodies?

Bible verses about Busybodies

www.openbible.info

 

[tosca1]

Their means are evil. Generally their intent is not.

Eve's intent would not have been evil...................................depending on how one would look at it, and try to spin it.


Hitler's intent was not evil. It depends on how you look at it.
Margaret Sanger's intent was not evil, either.

What intent start out as evil in the mind of a person?

Where does this intent comes from?

 

[tosca1]

It's not an entirely inapt comparison.

Why, you think Satan isn't intelligent enough to know what makes us tick?
That, he wouldn't "evolve" with the times?

There are, as the old saw goes, no new heresies.

It's not a heresy.

Idolatry - and, the deceptiveness of Satan - isn't a variance or a disenting opinion from what's written in the Scriptures - which is the definition of heresy.

 

[tosca1]

I did. You argued "by your rationale, it should bother those who want to stop black slavery if the slavers retorts, "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!"

and I pointed out that, not only was that an inaccurate reading of the argument I was putting forward, it was, in fact, the opposite of the argument I have put forward, as evidenced, for example, by me advancing the exact opposite of that argument in this thread (that it should not, in fact, stop or bother us a whit).

Then, why do you want me to stop - just because you say my style would be offensive to them?

 

[tosca1]

They are no more evil than you are - and are no more motivated by evil intent than you are.

If someone knows that what they're killing is a human being - and, they still do it anyway - as a Christian, how can you say their intent is not evil?
If the intent is to kill a human, then it's definitely MURDER!
Isn't MURDER, EVIL?

As a Christian - how can you reconcile that with what's written in the Scriptures?

1 John 3:12
We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.


can you please explain that.


Why do you balk at calling it evil?

 

[tosca1]

Where are Christians getting their pro-life message from? The bible itself isn't even pro-life.​

Exodus 20
13 “You shall not murder.



Psalm 94
20 Can a throne of destruction be allied with You,
One which devises mischief by decree?

21 They band themselves together against the life of the righteous
And condemn the innocent to death.



Proverbs 6
16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
Seven that are an abomination to Him:

17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,

18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,

19 A false witness who declares lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.

 

[Gordy327]

I am referring to your posts!

I have given some. One of them - the biblical statements that were reaffirmed as facts by science - is one of them!
Have you answered this question?
How could those ancient people have known about the stretching universe, the springs under the ocean, etc, which had taken science thousands of years to discover?


Science had to wait for advanced technology! Like powerful telescopes, and..................... Alvin!
And yet, those ancient "goat-herding-cave-dwellers" didn't even have binoculars, or snorkeling gears.
You guys can't seem to grasp that.


Lol - those kind of infos reaffirmed by science, are things that only the Creator would know!



You're confusing evidence for proof!







The series may be serious to you, however - so many things has gone over your head!
You have not really approached your series in an OBJECTIVE way, that's why they ended up looking........................................ JUVENILE!

The only thing that you've proven with your series is that yes, indeed - atheism requires a closed mind!


That's why........
You'll never make it in forums - or, anywhere - debating about the existence of God.

I see you have not been paying attention to my series then, as I have provided objective empirical evidence and citations which either offers a more plausible explanation for biblical stories other than "God did it," or which contradicts biblical claims. And you still have not offered empirical evidence or proof of a God.

 

[Crunchtime]

It’s clear that there’s life in the woman’s womb before she gives birth. There’s a heartbeat early in pregnancy. To take that innocent life is an act of the will. Intentional. That is the taking of life. It’s evil.

 

[Gordy327]

It’s clear that there’s life in the woman’s womb before she gives birth. There’s a heartbeat early in pregnancy. To take that innocent life is an act of the will. Intentional. That is the taking of life. It’s evil.

An embryo might have a "heartbeat." But it's just cardiac cells developing and depolarizing. But it's not yet a fully developed or functional heart. And whether an intentional abortion is "evil" or not is just mere opinion, and likely an emotionally driven one too.

 

[Crunchtime]

An embryo might have a "heartbeat." But it's just cardiac cells developing and depolarizing. But it's not yet a fully developed or functional heart. And whether an intentional abortion is "evil" or not is just mere opinion, and likely an emotionally driven one too.

Your argument is full of holes. Too many to point out. My suggestion for you is to be honest. Stop hiding behind hyperbole and half truths.

 

[Gordy327]

Your argument is full of holes. Too many to point out. My suggestion for you is to be honest. Stop hiding behind hyperbole and half truths.

What holes? If you disagree with my statement, then explain why rather than engaging in snark.

 

[cpwill]

You're saying, I'm evil.

All of us are fallen, and there is none of us who has not sinned, no not even one.

In terms of this debate, however, both sides are motivated by good intent. It is simply that one believes that a category of humans are not human, and this is, horrifically, wrong.

That's what I'm saying!
......................................like.............................. "Hitler" wrong!

You're saying Hitler didn't do anything that can be described as...............evil?

Or............................you're saying, there's no such thing as evil?

Hitler was indeed evil - he was driven by explicit hatred of a group of people.

The Pro Choice side, however, is generally not driven by a hatred of the unborn, but, by the desire to protect and enable women.

Can you please take a seat and think things thru.

I assure you - I have thought this issue through, and at some length, here and elsewhere.

 

[cpwill]

From a practical perspective, I do understand the actual argument given that the unborn is not human!

You cannot appeal to a person who's determined to see his way - to push abortion - even if it means making the unborn inhuman!

We get converts all the time, actually

However, we don't get them by misrepresenting them, to them.

When it comes to justice - it's not about emotions.

No, but when it comes to practical politics in furtherance of a goal (which is what this is about) emotions are extremely important. If you do not understand an argument that appeals emotionally to those in the middle whom we need to win over, you will not be able to effectively address it, and the result is that you will lose.

But this is an issue that is too important to lose because it's easier for us to simply deride or carricaturize our opponents.

The one who is unhinged would be the one who doesn't makes sense.

Or, in this case, the one who isn't able to accurately describe others.

From a Christian perspective -

Who made you judge of people's hearts?

Scripture and God both call on us to judge wisely, and, in fact, internal to the Church, we are commanded to do so.

In this case, we are called upon to judge how to interact with people whom we strongly disagree with, and who we think are enabling murder, in a Christian manner. Love Thy Enemies, a man once said.

So, from a Christian perspective, we are called on to love them, and part of that is understanding them

Matthew 10:16 - “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
2 Cor 10:5 - " We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ"

Motivations?

Yes.

Yes, read this again:

2 Cor 10:5 - " We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ"

Indeed. So why are you leaving arguments to the opposition, instead of taking them captive to obey Christ?

 

[cpwill]

Then, why do you want me to stop - just because you say my style would be offensive to them?

I have never said that you should stop arguing for the rights of the unborn I have pointed out to you that misrepresenting the motivations of the Pro Choice is both unhelpful to the Pro Life cause from a practical perspective, and not how we as Christians are called upon to argue from a moral one .

 

[cpwill]

If someone knows that what they're killing is a human being - and, they still do it anyway - as a Christian, how can you say their intent is not evil?

Plenty of killings of other human beings are done that are not un-Christian; the Commandment is against Murder. There is, in fact, an entire doctrine - Just War Doctrine - about how Christians are to organize mass-killings of other humans, when, tragically, doing so becomes necessary.

However, you have not demonstrated that they believe that they are killing a human being, and they insist that they are not doing so, which seems a reliable indicator of their beliefs in the matter. People have the ability to be horrifically wrong. Christians of good intent have been horrifically wrong in the past, and many of us probably are today. That ought to inspire humility, even as we stand firm in our principles, trusting in His Grace to bridge the gap between our imperfect understanding and deeds and His will.

If the intent is to kill a human, then it's definitely MURDER!

1. Their intent is not to kill a human being, because they do not think an unborn child is a human being.
2. Not all intentional killings of human beings are murder.

 

[Crunchtime]

What holes? If you disagree with my statement, then explain why rather than engaging in snark.

At what stage does an embryo become a fetus? And when is the heart “functional”? When does a fetus become alive, and living creature? And is the taking of life for convenience sake, evil?

 

[Gordy327]

At what stage does an embryo become a fetus?

8 weeks gestation.

And when is the heart “functional”?

Birth

When does a fetus become alive, and living creature?

If you mean when does it become an independent person, then birth.

And is the taking of life for convenience sake, evil?

No.

 

[tosca1]

Hitler was indeed evil - he was driven by explicit hatred of a group of people.

Evil does not manifest itself simply because of hate.

The Pro Choice side, however, is generally not driven by a hatred of the unborn,

To advocate for murder - especially the murder of an innocent................................is EVIL.

It is a moral evil (biblically).
To advocate for it, is also an outright defiance of God's command.

“You shall not murder."


Pro-Choice Christians should know better.

..............but, by the desire to protect and enable women.

"Protect" the woman from........................WHAT?
"Enable" her...........................HOW?
Can you please expand on that.

I assure you - I have thought this issue through, and at some length, here and elsewhere.

It doesn't show.

 

[tosca1]

We get converts all the time, actually

Then, good for you.
Keep up with your good work.

However, we don't get them by misrepresenting them, to them.

I don't, either.

No, but when it comes to practical politics in furtherance of a goal (which is what this is about) emotions are extremely important. If you do not understand an argument that appeals emotionally to those in the middle whom we need to win over, you will not be able to effectively address it, and the result is that you will lose.

You do that. If your target audience to "win over" is the "middle" - then, do what you think is best for you to win them.

I don't have a specific 'target audience." My message is for anyone........but perhaps so, more for Christians who are, or who might be confused by pro-choice arguments.
And, I don't do it at the expense of the Scriptures.

But this is an issue that is too important to lose because it's easier for us to simply deride or carricaturize our opponents.

I don't understand what you mean by, "caricature."
I don't "caricature" the murder of innocents. There is nothing exagerrated about saying it: abortion is murder!

And I surely don't misrepresent what is stated in the Gospel - about LOVE.

Or, in this case, the one who isn't able to accurately describe others.

You can't accurately describe everyone - individually.
But you can accurately describe the ideology through the arguments they give.

If you're in the pulpit - then, I can see where you're coming from.

But if you're in the forum, and you're debating with your counterparts in activism - of course, you'll have to deal with their argument!
Their main argument (even in law), is that the unborn is not human!
It depends on where you are, and who you're debating with.

Scripture and God both call on us to judge wisely, and, in fact, internal to the Church, we are commanded to do so.

In this case, we are called upon to judge how to interact with people whom we strongly disagree with, and who we think are enabling murder, in a Christian manner. Love Thy Enemies, a man once said. So, from a Christian perspective, we are called on to love them, and part of that is understanding them

You're misrepresenting LOVE in this case, my brother.

I should ask you: Where is the love?

 

[tosca1]

We get converts all the time, actually

Then, good for you.
Keep up with your good work.

However, we don't get them by misrepresenting them, to them.

I don't, either.

No, but when it comes to practical politics in furtherance of a goal (which is what this is about) emotions are extremely important. If you do not understand an argument that appeals emotionally to those in the middle whom we need to win over, you will not be able to effectively address it, and the result is that you will lose.

You do that. If your target audience to "win over" is the "middle" - then, do what you think is best for you to win them.

I don't have a specific 'target audience." My message is for anyone........but perhaps so, more for Christians who are, or who might be confused by pro-choice arguments.
And, I don't do it at the expense of the Scriptures.

But this is an issue that is too important to lose because it's easier for us to simply deride or carricaturize our opponents.

I don't understand what you mean by, "caricature."
I don't "caricature" the murder of innocents. There is nothing exagerrated about saying it: abortion is murder!

And I surely don't misrepresent what is stated in the Gospel - about LOVE.

Or, in this case, the one who isn't able to accurately describe others.

We can't accurately describe others - unless you know what's in their hearts.

However, in a forum you can accurately describe or see where one is coming from. How?
Thru their arguments!

If an opponent tells you the unborn isn't human - that's his argument!
The rebuttal expected from us would be within that context of the unborn and his humanity.
Bringing up historical precedent of dehumanizing humans................. is part of it!

Too bad if comparing the method of dehumanization with Hitler is offensive - it's a valid rebuttal!

Scripture and God both call on us to judge wisely, and, in fact, internal to the Church, we are commanded to do so.

Thank you.

In this case, we are called upon to judge how to interact with people whom we strongly disagree with, and who we think are enabling murder, in a Christian manner. Love Thy Enemies, a man once said.

So, from a Christian perspective, we are called on to love them, and part of that is understanding them

Matthew 10:16 - “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
2 Cor 10:5 - " We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ"

So - you're judging me thru my "interaction" in a forum.

You do not approve of my style?
You're implying........................................ I do not do what I do, out of love?
My motivation isn't out of caring?

How do you know?
Like I said - who made you judge of people's hearts?



My style in the forum has already been questioned before. I have already asked of God about the way I do it in forums - a long time ago.
God had given me His answer.


You shouldn't worry about me. We have our own styles.
Focus on your own.

Indeed. So why are you leaving arguments to the opposition, instead of taking them captive to obey Christ?

I WAS!

I was trying to demolish their arguments! That is............UNTIL YOU'D SIDETRACKED BOTH OF US .....and instead - here we are, both wasting our time having this petty arguments over my style!


What is so hard to understand about...................................."mind your own style?"

 

[tosca1]

Plenty of killings of other human beings are done that are not un-Christian; the Commandment is against Murder. There is, in fact, an entire doctrine - Just War Doctrine - about how Christians are to organize mass-killings of other humans, when, tragically, doing so becomes necessary.

However, you have not demonstrated that they believe that they are killing a human being, and they insist that they are not doing so, which seems a reliable indicator of their beliefs in the matter. People have the ability to be horrifically wrong. Christians of good intent have been horrifically wrong in the past, and many of us probably are today. That ought to inspire humility, even as we stand firm in our principles, trusting in His Grace to bridge the gap between our imperfect understanding and deeds and His will.



1. Their intent is not to kill a human being, because they do not think an unborn child is a human being.
2. Not all intentional killings of human beings are murder.

Not only do you know what's in everyone's hearts - lol - now, you know what everyone thinks!

How do you know they all think an unborn isn't human?

That, they just prefer to think that he is not human?
That's possible.



Anyway.....

You're entitled to your opinion.