When were ex-cons denied the Right to own a gun? [W:69]

[joko104]

And officers like you, if you are really one, wonder why people dont like cops and many people think we should not own guns.
You praise idiots like George Zimmerman then turn around and spout stupidity about what can and cant be done as far as gun transfers and gifting.
I shouldnt be surprised. Heck you admit your wifes mommy and daddy had to get a job for her husband. Pathetic.
And since you wont answer the simplest question, forget it. Its obvious you cant, you are not well versed enough in the law to be able to.

Did you forget your question?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Actually that is not an over dramatizing. If you are convicted of a felony you are denied a gun for life. That is a life sentence. Unless you are lucky and get a pardon from the govenor of the state the crime happened in, get your record first sealed, then expunged and then get your rights restored (which costs thousands of dollars).

Then dont be a felon. Simple. Personal responsibility. Character. Pride in ones self. Act like a grown up. Do those things and "accidently" becoming a felon wont happen.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Did you forget your question?

No, why? You going to answer it?

 

[joko104]

No, why? You going to answer it?

So you have forgotten.

 

[CRUE CAB]

So you have forgotten.

Nope, you just were asked so many time you should be able to spit it right out.
But I will help you out, sonny.
Just why should people that have proven themselves to not be able to work within the rules of decent society be allowed to own guns at will.
We are talking about people that prey on others, either physically or financially. Get multiple DUIs, dont or wont pay their taxes like everyone else, beat people up, rob people, sell dope, steal from them, hurt others, set fires or one of the other thousand things you can do to catch a felony.
Why should they enjoy the same at will freedoms that those of us that have kept thier noses clean and to the grindstone enjoy.
No one is asking anyone to be perfect. Iam not, you are not, no other poster here is not.
Its a simple question. Yet you have done nothing but try to come after me.
Even calling me of all people "anti gun". Man what a laugh.

 

[joko104]

Nope, you just were asked so many time you should be able to spit it right out.
But I will help you out, sonny.
Just why should people that have proven themselves to not be able to work within the rules of decent society be allowed to own guns at will.
We are talking about people that prey on others, either physically or financially. Get multiple DUIs, dont or wont pay their taxes like everyone else, beat people up, rob people, sell dope, steal from them, hurt others, set fires or one of the other thousand things you can do to catch a felony.
Why should they enjoy the same at will freedoms that those of us that have kept thier noses clean and to the grindstone enjoy.
No one is asking anyone to be perfect. Iam not, you are not, no other poster here is not.
Its a simple question. Yet you have done nothing but try to come after me.
Even calling me of all people "anti gun". Man what a laugh.

I have answered this multiple times in multiple ways:

1. Essentially everyone has committed one or more felonies in their life, so you presumption that a person has committed a felony proves the person is unsafe with a gun is extreme anti-gun. It has nothing to do with "felony," it has to be with being caught.

2. You assert all felons are identical and they are not. Many, in fact most, having nothing to do with endangering other people or firearms. They have government regulations, drug charges, and property.

3. I strongly support the Bill of Rights not just as law, but in principle. Denying a parent the right to self defense, to defend their family, their children as a life sentence is absurd.

4. I do not believe you are a superior person to someone who had a joint in Oklahoma when they 18. Your messages, essentially, are you declaring you are somehow safer and morally superior. Your messages seem erratic, emotionally unstable, and volatile.

5. Your assertion that people who don't have a felony conviction "kept their noses clean and to the grindstone" has no basis whatsoever.

6. Denying a right for life is a life sentence. I do not believe most felonies call for or allow a life sentence.

7. Denying a person a right does not just deny that person that right when it comes to defense. It denies children the right to be defended by their parent too.

8. I absolutely do not agree with your basis for judging the worth or safety of other people. I am not a government-worshipper. You are in this regards.

9. The legal system is failed and corrupt. For lesser felonies a person will spend less time in jail pleading guilty that waiting for trial and being found not-guilty. Family people and responsible people will plead guilty to anything if it allows that person to better house, feed and provide for their family.
In your message, you claim you were falsely arrested, so a person being arrested doesn't prove a person did anything wrong.

10. If a person does not have the rights and privileges of a citizen, then the person should have no obligations or duties as one. That was the core premise of why this country was started. Voting, gun ownership etc is not a "privilege" allowed by government. It is a right guaranteed by law and constitution.

11. No person who is so dangerous as they could not have a firearm then should not be released from prison since anyone can get a firearm - legal or not. That the criminal justice system is so screwed up as to have turned 100,000 actions and 100,000 inactions into felonies, makes greater time for proving innocence than falsely admitting guilt, and releases people who should not be released - does not justify then spitting on guaranteed and basic civil rights including to self defense of yourself, your family and your community.

The almost endless lists of "felonies" when it comes to many laws, rules and regulations in terms of conviction usually does not come down to what a person did - but where, who the person is, and how the government feels about you. Have a gun illegally in your car? The cop may well do nothing at all. Or if the government doesn't like you may sent a SWAT team after you.

Today its a felony, tomorrow a misdemeanor. In LA you maybe get a ticket. In OK you get 3 years in the pen - depending how the cop feels about you at the moment. Without the luck of having witnesses, you'd have a criminal record for assault a cop. There is way too much bull**** in laws, law enforcements, cops and courts to make decisions about fundamental core rights for life on it.

12. I don't think you'd ever come to the aid of anyone and are a truly self-centric, timid and apathetic person. However, not everyone is that way. I want most people armed. Because there are other people who would come to the aid of my family, friends and neighbors if need be and they were able.

13. There are too many bull**** laws, rules and regulations. And they change every day, everywhere. People don't even know 95% of them exist.

Even of "serious ones," some are absurd. You can legally shoot someone to death in a situation where if instead you fire a shot to just warn the person off it's a mandatory 20 years in prison - no less or parole exception. Why? Because Florida zippy pinhead politicians decided they don't like "warning shoots" - so merely for a person saying the wrong words it's 20 years prison. "I missed" - go free. "I fired a warning" - 20 years in prison - even if to scare away armed assailants bursting into your home. ****-laws like that.

MEANING I DO NOT JUDGE PEOPLE for how the government judges people. I don't worship government as if God. You do. Obviously.

You have never presented any reason why merely having any felony of any kind show deny a person their rights - under the Bill of Rights, personal rights and parental rights for life.

At it's core, you see guns as evil and what it highly restricted who should be ALLOWED a gun. I see guns as fundamentally good and not requiring government permission to have one. You seem to think you're having guns is some big deal and that then somehow you should be treated special. I fully disagree. I see nothing special about you whatsoever - and I have avoided comparisons of which of us has more firearms and ammo - though many on the forum know the answer to that one.

You have presented nothing to show you are a decent, safe or trustable person. Only your criminal record shows you have never been caught. I wasn't either. Not caught in a convictable sense even one time. The club's lawyers taught me well. I was cautious. Lucky. And back in that phase of my life the police generally didn't want to come into that part of Chicago either. So, despite having committed more felonies than I could possibly ever count, I have an arsenal and a badge. And the single mother of 3 with a felony bad-check conviction because her bum-husband secretly cleaned out the meager bank account when he left - or the man who has the felony because the ex-wife did when she left - can't defense her/himself or his children against a home invasion.

You view is based upon some unearned self glorification, detachment from actually of violent criminals will get guns, and a core hate and fear of guns. When a person served their time, they should be done with it and a full citizen again. Or not released at all.

In addition, You are living in the twilight zone if you think outlawing truly violent dangerous people from having a firearm prevents even one from having a firearm. They theme of your messages actually is intensely anti-gun and very detached from reality. If you have some theory of how outlawing guns to violent murders and rapists would keep any of them from having a gun, explain it. The ONLY felons prevented by law from having firearms are not the dangerous ones. The truly dangerous ones will get firearms or anything else they want anyway.

 

[CRUE CAB]

1. BS
2. Wrong, I never said that. Everyone else is. So if they were non violent, they can petition the courts to get thier rights back.
3. Bill of Rights, I carry a wallet sized copy.
4. Never made any of those assertaions, only said if I can stay out of jail. Anyone can.
5. Prove me wrong. Try to do right as much as you can and you will stay out of trouble. You will learn that as you get older.
6. Its not a life sentence, you can go back to court and get your rights restored.
7. Parents should have thought about thier children first.
8. Yet you say you work for the government. And Iam not a worshiper either and am not asking anyone to be.
9. Subjective. No proof, no evidence.
10. Hyperbole.
11. More hyperbole.
12. I have come to the aid of people. Believe that or not. I have the court documents to prove it.
13. Too many laws? So? I can follow enough of them to not go to jail, you cant?
I got to the part where you think I see guns as evil, I have told you to come to Melbourne. I will gladly meet you at the range in Sebastian were I shoot on a regular basis with my family.
Guns are not evil, stupidity is evil. And rampant I see.
Where have I self glorified? I admit my failings on a regular basis here. Ya know, because Iam human.
Seriously, I invite you to the range. Spend some time sending lead down range. After, head to Capt Hirams. First round is on me.
Oh, and you did not answer WHY should felons be able to walk out of jail and go to a gun shop and buy a gun.
All this Bill of Rights stuff means nothing to me in the face of a felony.
Too many rules? That is a cop out.

 

[joko104]

Since you couldn't see my shorter responses and you "read a lot" - there's my answer - or at least part of it.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Since you couldn't see my shorter responses and you "read a lot" - there's my answer - or at least part of it.

Its still a simple question.
Why should felons have the same rights that you or I do?
They are felons for a freaking reason.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Guess what, they cant vote either. Oh, the horror.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Guess what, they cant vote either. Oh, the horror.

Not quite correct. Only Virginia permanently removes the right to vote from citizens who are convicted of felonies. Most other states don't. A few do for a period while still under supervision, and a couple of others require some legal action before it can be regained. But there are a couple that never do, even allowing inmates to vote while they are still in prison.

Hope that clears up your misunderstanding of the facts.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Not quite correct. Only Virginia permanently removes the right to vote from citizens who are convicted of felonies. Most other states don't. A few do for a period while still under supervision, and a couple of others require some legal action before it can be regained. But there are a couple that never do, even allowing inmates to vote while they are still in prison.

Hope that clears up your misunderstanding of the facts.

I know, but still. Once you are a felon, there are things you just cant do or own after your convictions. I dont see a problem with that.
And I live in Florida, good luck getting your rights back here.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I know, but still. Once you are a felon, there are things you just cant do or own after your convictions. I dont see a problem with that.
And I live in Florida, good luck getting your rights back here.

Well, in Florida it depends:

It is true that you have to file a request to restore your civil rights, but once filed:

1. Approval is automatic if not been convicted of a lewd or lascivious crime, kidnapping, child pornography, murder or other violent crime after the felon completes his sentence and supervision or probation, pay victim restitution and have no pending charges.

2. If a felon was convicted of a violent crime other than murder or sex crimes, he may wait 15 years from the date of conviction to submit his application. He must not have not committed any crimes since, and requires him to complete his sentence and any supervision or probation requirements and pay victim restitution. If he meets these conditions he may have his civil rights restored without a hearing. Otherwise, trying to apply earlier will require all sorts of investigations etc., culminating in a hearing.

3. If a felon was convicted of murder, a sex crime or is a sexual predator he must first undergo a full investigation to have his civil rights restored. This requires completion of the sentence and any supervision or probation requirements, payment of victim restitution, and a full investigation and hearing, including a victim statement to the Clemency Board.

So, even your state of Florida has methods of relief. This includes non-violent felons regaining voting rights automatically after filing for them.

 

[joko104]

1. BS
2. Wrong, I never said that. Everyone else is. So if they were non violent, they can petition the courts to get thier rights back.
3. Bill of Rights, I carry a wallet sized copy.
4. Never made any of those assertaions, only said if I can stay out of jail. Anyone can.
5. Prove me wrong. Try to do right as much as you can and you will stay out of trouble. You will learn that as you get older.
6. Its not a life sentence, you can go back to court and get your rights restored.
7. Parents should have thought about thier children first.
8. Yet you say you work for the government. And Iam not a worshiper either and am not asking anyone to be.
9. Subjective. No proof, no evidence.
10. Hyperbole.
11. More hyperbole.
12. I have come to the aid of people. Believe that or not. I have the court documents to prove it.
13. Too many laws? So? I can follow enough of them to not go to jail, you cant?
I got to the part where you think I see guns as evil, I have told you to come to Melbourne. I will gladly meet you at the range in Sebastian were I shoot on a regular basis with my family.
Guns are not evil, stupidity is evil. And rampant I see.
Where have I self glorified? I admit my failings on a regular basis here. Ya know, because Iam human.
Seriously, I invite you to the range. Spend some time sending lead down range. After, head to Capt Hirams. First round is on me.
Oh, and you did not answer WHY should felons be able to walk out of jail and go to a gun shop and buy a gun.
All this Bill of Rights stuff means nothing to me in the face of a felony.
Too many rules? That is a cop out.

The respond back is to just then bandy back and forth. I'll only comment on a couple of them.

I do not agree with you that children should suffer and be punished because of what a parent did - which is what "the parent should have thought of that first" means. If the child grows up badly, it isn't the parent that suffers. It is the community.

"All this Bill of Rights stuff means nothing to me..." ("in the face of a felony.)" All that Bill of Rights stuff mean a great deal to me. I do not see any reason how having a felony conviction of itself changes that for a citizen. A person loses rights in prison by definition of what prison it.

Are you terrified of "felons?" And if so, do you actually believe that if a person wants to get a gun to do a crime anti-gun laws will stop it?

From this point, though, it is just tossing words - and I suppose insults - back and forth. I have known a great number of men who committed felony offenses - men who were caught and convicted. Men who were not caught. Of those, the worst of all - as violent and evil as any person can possibly be - they were never caught or convicted - but that is was basically a lawlessness setting.

Curiously, except those who did/do violence in terms of assault of others - and those generally will always be dangerous people regardless of any laws - thinking about it I never detected any more or less violence any people who did and who did not have non-violent criminal records.

And I have now answered your question many times. In my opinion the right to have a firearm is a fundamental right on many levels. It is assured in the Bill of Rights as a right, not a government granted privilege. I believe the right to self defense, to defend family, children, home and community also is a fundamental inherent right of every person.

Obviously a person can not have weapons in prison. If a person has proven to be of a nature to violently harm other people then there is basis to take the right away. But otherwise there is no rationale.

It makes as much sense to me as if a person is found guilty of speeding then their hunting license is taken for life - though a person could go to court to try to get it back - ie feed the legal industry machine and lobby.

"If you can't trust someone following the simplest laws with a 3000 pound machine known to kill and cripple tens of thousands of people a year, why would you trust someone with a gun? Why would you want someone who broke the law and endangered everyone to be able to just go buy a gun?" That is how I see your logic - apples and oranges. A person who writes a hot check has not shown any violent dangerous characteristics all.

If it is about "breaking rules," then any finding of adultery in a divorce certainly should ban gun ownership for life, right?

There is one other reason I gave you didn't mention - and that is there are some people who will come to other people's rescue. It is fully irrational to me to think I'd rather my child or wife be assaulted - than a hot check writer or tax evader come to their rescue. Generally, I think the more guns out there, the better. And I told who I think should never get out of jail, who should be executed and who I do think firearm ownership could be banned - for all the good it'd do, which is likely none anyway.

Then again, elsewhere on the forum some people were raging at me for sometimes driving way over the speed limit - and more my wife all but ignores speed laws. Maybe they should ban us both from firearm ownership for that?

And we do have different pasts. Until my life substantive changed around 6 years ago due to my wife coming into my life and I going into her world, I was around lots of criminal types, ex-cons and felons on parole all the time. There just people to me, no different from anyone else. I don't see the great divide you do. Except for certain types of crimes, I don't see any divide at all. It would also be extreme hypocrisy if I did.

For 2oo years, a person could walk out of jail and buy a gun. Somehow, the country survived.

 

[joko104]

Guess what, they cant vote either. Oh, the horror.

Then they should not have to pay any taxes. "No taxation without representation."

 

[CRUE CAB]

Well, in Florida it depends:

It is true that you have to file a request to restore your civil rights, but once filed:

1. Approval is automatic if not been convicted of a lewd or lascivious crime, kidnapping, child pornography, murder or other violent crime after the felon completes his sentence and supervision or probation, pay victim restitution and have no pending charges.

2. If a felon was convicted of a violent crime other than murder or sex crimes, he may wait 15 years from the date of conviction to submit his application. He must not have not committed any crimes since, and requires him to complete his sentence and any supervision or probation requirements and pay victim restitution. If he meets these conditions he may have his civil rights restored without a hearing. Otherwise, trying to apply earlier will require all sorts of investigations etc., culminating in a hearing.

3. If a felon was convicted of murder, a sex crime or is a sexual predator he must first undergo a full investigation to have his civil rights restored. This requires completion of the sentence and any supervision or probation requirements, payment of victim restitution, and a full investigation and hearing, including a victim statement to the Clemency Board.

So, even your state of Florida has methods of relief. This includes non-violent felons regaining voting rights automatically after filing for them.

I was just responding to your voting comments. In Florida even the Governor is trying to make it harder for felons to vote.
It was a big deal last election.
I have no problem with someone straightening their life out and petitioning the courts for their rights back. But it should not be automatic. Ever.

 

[CRUE CAB]

The respond back is to just then bandy back and forth. I'll only comment on a couple of them.

I do not agree with you that children should suffer and be punished because of what a parent did - which is what "the parent should have thought of that first" means. If the child grows up badly, it isn't the parent that suffers. It is the community.

"All this Bill of Rights stuff means nothing to me..." ("in the face of a felony.)" All that Bill of Rights stuff mean a great deal to me. I do not see any reason how having a felony conviction of itself changes that for a citizen. A person loses rights in prison by definition of what prison it.

Are you terrified of "felons?" And if so, do you actually believe that if a person wants to get a gun to do a crime anti-gun laws will stop it?

From this point, though, it is just tossing words - and I suppose insults - back and forth. I have known a great number of men who committed felony offenses - men who were caught and convicted. Men who were not caught. Of those, the worst of all - as violent and evil as any person can possibly be - they were never caught or convicted - but that is was basically a lawlessness setting.

Curiously, except those who did/do violence in terms of assault of others - and those generally will always be dangerous people regardless of any laws - thinking about it I never detected any more or less violence any people who did and who did not have non-violent criminal records.

And I have now answered your question many times. In my opinion the right to have a firearm is a fundamental right on many levels. It is assured in the Bill of Rights as a right, not a government granted privilege. I believe the right to self defense, to defend family, children, home and community also is a fundamental inherent right of every person.

Obviously a person can not have weapons in prison. If a person has proven to be of a nature to violently harm other people then there is basis to take the right away. But otherwise there is no rationale.

It makes as much sense to me as if a person is found guilty of speeding then their hunting license is taken for life - though a person could go to court to try to get it back - ie feed the legal industry machine and lobby.

"If you can't trust someone following the simplest laws with a 3000 pound machine known to kill and cripple tens of thousands of people a year, why would you trust someone with a gun? Why would you want someone who broke the law and endangered everyone to be able to just go buy a gun?" That is how I see your logic - apples and oranges. A person who writes a hot check has not shown any violent dangerous characteristics all.

If it is about "breaking rules," then any finding of adultery in a divorce certainly should ban gun ownership for life, right?

There is one other reason I gave you didn't mention - and that is there are some people who will come to other people's rescue. It is fully irrational to me to think I'd rather my child or wife be assaulted - than a hot check writer or tax evader come to their rescue. Generally, I think the more guns out there, the better. And I told who I think should never get out of jail, who should be executed and who I do think firearm ownership could be banned - for all the good it'd do, which is likely none anyway.

Then again, elsewhere on the forum some people were raging at me for sometimes driving way over the speed limit - and more my wife all but ignores speed laws. Maybe they should ban us both from firearm ownership for that?

And we do have different pasts. Until my life substantive changed around 6 years ago due to my wife coming into my life and I going into her world, I was around lots of criminal types, ex-cons and felons on parole all the time. There just people to me, no different from anyone else. I don't see the great divide you do. Except for certain types of crimes, I don't see any divide at all. It would also be extreme hypocrisy if I did.

For 2oo years, a person could walk out of jail and buy a gun. Somehow, the country survived.

You can expand and twist this all you want.
The question is should conviced felons be given their gun rights back. Period. Not what people that havent been caught or anything else.
A convice coming out of prison for a felony should not have a gun. They have proven themselves to be not trustworthy or reliable enough to have such a right.
And I stand stronger on that today then yesterday. Because yesterday some scum bag homeless bum broke into the home of a niece and her husband right after he left for work.
You have have all the sympathy in the world for the family and children of the criminals. I have sympathy for the working people that they prey on.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Then they should not have to pay any taxes. "No taxation without representation."

I doubt any of them scumbags pay much anyway. But either way, its apples and oranges.

 

[Helix]

Moderator's Warning:

The flaming and personal attacks will stop now, or infractions and / or thread bans will result.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Moderator's Warning:

The flaming and personal attacks will stop now, or infractions and / or thread bans will result.

Day late and a dollar short there my man. Its all good.