When the death penalty is justified...

[Real Korimyr #9]

A sociopath can be taught to pretend to have empathy.

Which is really all that's necessary. What does it matter what's going on inside a person's mind, as long as they behave properly?

 

[Paschendale]

It is never alright to kill. If you end a life, you destroy any potential good that could come from it. No one, ever, is past saving. If someone has a mental disability, and cannot function normally in society, then it falls to us to find a place for that person. Everyone is capable of doing good. Destroying that potential is callous, evil, and cowardly.

 

[OscarB63]

Which is really all that's necessary. What does it matter what's going on inside a person's mind, as long as they behave properly?

but that is the problem, if they are only pretending to have empathy how can you be assured that they will not revert to their natural state of behavior. you cannot cure the root cause of sociopathic behavior any more than you can train a rattlesnake not to bite.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

That's the difference between self-interest and enlightened self-interest. They can't be "cured" or made into normal human beings, but their self-interest can be enlightened.

 

[Paschendale]

but that is the problem, if they are only pretending to have empathy how can you be assured that they will not revert to their natural state of behavior. you cannot cure the root cause of sociopathic behavior any more than you can train a rattlesnake not to bite.

You most certainly can train a rattlesnake not to bite. It's actually pretty easy. The basis of this opinion about "natural state" assumes an innate superiority of some people over others, unmodified by one's surroundings. That is the credo of Nazis and the KKK. Not saying you're either of these, but pointing out the flaw in that supposition. Modern psychology very clearly points to much of our behavior being a result of outside influences. All behavior can be modified. For a very visceral instance of this, see the movie from which my avatar is drawn.

 

[Bodi]

I am fine with this as long as you are okay with not killing them should society decide to remove the death penalty.

I 100% support American Democracy and for lack of a better term, "the will of the people", even if I disagree with it. Just as I do with certain aspects of Abortion.

 

[OscarB63]

You most certainly can train a rattlesnake not to bite. It's actually pretty easy. The basis of this opinion about "natural state" assumes an innate superiority of some people over others, unmodified by one's surroundings. That is the credo of Nazis and the KKK. Not saying you're either of these, but pointing out the flaw in that supposition. Modern psychology very clearly points to much of our behavior being a result of outside influences. All behavior can be modified. For a very visceral instance of this, see the movie from which my avatar is drawn.

modern psychology, for the most part, is BS and witchcraft. and, contrary to popular opinion some people are innately superior to others. some are smarter, some are stronger, some are faster.

my father had an identical twin brother, raised together, went to the same elementary, middle and high schools. my uncle flunked out of college after the first semester and spent the rest of his life doing drywall. My father got B.S. degrees in chemistry and physics. had to drop out of medical school because mom got pregnant with me. went back to night school and got a teaching degree, followed by a master's in admin and became a HS principal.

are you trying to tell me that there was not something innately superior about my father that allowed him to accomplish so much more than his twin brother?


that "all men are created equal" is one of the biggest lies ever told. everyone should have equal opportunity, but we are most definitely NOT all created equal.

 

[Bodi]

It is never alright to kill. If you end a life, you destroy any potential good that could come from it. No one, ever, is past saving. If someone has a mental disability, and cannot function normally in society, then it falls to us to find a place for that person. Everyone is capable of doing good. Destroying that potential is callous, evil, and cowardly.

That completely negates personal responsibility, and that is not acceptable to me and many many others... everyone is capable of good, and everyone is capable of bad. Destroying the bad is more responsible than accepting it and trying to work with it in hopes that good can come of it. It allows for people to do whatever they want, and if they are caught ,they get to simply reset the game and start over. That is a callous, stupid and cowardly acceptance of evil and an irresposible view towards protecting the innocent.

I guess when your daughter is raped and butchered, you would have no problem letting the caught and "retrained" scumbag date your other daughter, right? Until you exhibit that to us all in some documentary or documented version, your idealistic drivel will simply be smiled at kindly as I shake my head at the naivety of your ideas.

 

[OscarB63]

Everyone is capable of doing good. Destroying that potential is callous, evil, and cowardly.

nice warm and fuzzy moment. care if I use this line the next time I am argueing against abortion?

 

[Bodi]

modern psychology, for the most part, is BS and witchcraft. and, contrary to popular opinion some people are innately superior to others. some are smarter, some are stronger, some are faster.

that "all men are created equal" is one of the biggest lies ever told. everyone should have equal opportunity, but we are most definitely NOT all created equal.

Another is that everyone is a winner simply becasue you tried. One of our teams got trophies when we sucked and didn't come close to finishing in even the top ten teams. Threw that one away... lame. It is important to try your best and to want to win, but if you don'w win you should not feel bad about yourself if you gave it your all.

All people are not created equal, and I see this daily as I remind myself that not all of my students are capable of achieving the standards. It is the simple truth. Some people simply have lower IQ's. Full stop. End of story.

 

[Didactic]

First of all... who are you responding to? Please use the "Reply With Quote" link in the bottom right corner of the post when responding from now on, thanks.

I don't think that anybody has a problem with curing mental conditions, so I have no idea why you are indicating that we do. The world would obviously be better off, I know I would not have had to endure 8 years of marriage to one with Borderline Personality Disorder if that was the case. The issue with your argument is that you are presenting a great idea, cure all mental disorders, without a plan. What are we supposed to do then? Without a plan, we have to follow through with a consequence. If you are suggesting that each person who commits a crime undergo psychological testing and that they be kept alive and studied, then that is already happening for serious and unusual cases, if you suggest we experiment on them, that would be considered cruel and unusual.

What do you suggest then, oh compassionate one that thinks so lowly of the rest of us unevolved sub-humans from the third century...



First off, it is a 7th Century definition... What are you saying? That Stalin wasn't evil, he was just sick? Duh, that is obvious. Evil is an adjective, genuis... not a tangible thing. I am sure that I know far more about mentally sick people then you do, if for no other reason that I was married to one.



I don't think it hasn't?

What makes you think that I am not a scientist, and I do know many scientists and psychologists who think like I do, so what about that snoop dog?

During the Black Plague, they certainly did think that people could be cured. They just couldn't find the cure...
You know as much about history as you do psychology... and that ain't much.

You have done a good job in trying to disprove my posts but what I want to know is what you personally think about this particular issue. What is your solution? Continue with the same system?

 

[Didactic]

It is never alright to kill. If you end a life, you destroy any potential good that could come from it. No one, ever, is past saving. If someone has a mental disability, and cannot function normally in society, then it falls to us to find a place for that person. Everyone is capable of doing good. Destroying that potential is callous, evil, and cowardly.

I completely agree with you

 

[mike2810]

It is never alright to kill. If you end a life, you destroy any potential good that could come from it. No one, ever, is past saving. If someone has a mental disability, and cannot function normally in society, then it falls to us to find a place for that person. Everyone is capable of doing good. Destroying that potential is callous, evil, and cowardly.

So you see good in the likes of Manson, Jeffry Dahmar, T. McVay, etc? The problem with the death penality is it takes way to long to carry out. Convicted felons sit for years waiting.

 

[VanceMack]

So you see good in the likes of Manson, Jeffry Dahmar, T. McVay, etc? The problem with the death penality is it takes way to long to carry out. Convicted felons sit for years waiting.

bah...the gutless cowardly way is to be against the death penalty but be just fine with "life in prison without parole." Out of sight, out of mind...and look at us we are soooo civilized...

Now...heres my own hypocrisy. Im opposed to the death penalty...not because I think those convicted of the crime do or do not deserve it but because I think the families of the victims of violent criminals tend to be stuck in their own anger and hatred and it consumes them. I know 'forgiveness' is a difficult concept when faced with attrocities.

And BTW...while I cant see the 'good' in many of those individuals, I CAN see the child that was Charles Manson...the life without a father, a mother that was a prostitute and abandoned him to the state care, whi was sexually assaulted as a child in juvenile prison, and all the other things that contributed to the child becoming the 'monster' that we all hate.

 

[American]

Yeah, if they'd done it to the man, they'd still need to die. No matter how much worse it is to hurt women and children than to hurt men.

Thank you Catz, you can dump your basement sockpuppet. :lol:

 

[Bodi]

You have done a good job in trying to disprove my posts but what I want to know is what you personally think about this particular issue. What is your solution? Continue with the same system?

In disproving... I have, haven't I?

Sorry about the delay... I forgot about this thread. My solution is that once DNA is proven, give the condemned one year to appeal, one appeal and then execute them with a gun.

 

[Bodi]

It is never alright to kill. If you end a life, you destroy any potential good that could come from it. No one, ever, is past saving. If someone has a mental disability, and cannot function normally in society, then it falls to us to find a place for that person. Everyone is capable of doing good. Destroying that potential is callous, evil, and cowardly.

Absolute bull****. The matter at hand is how do we respond to evil. Do we do away with evil or do we tolerate it in the hope that some good might come of it? Eradicating evil is the only viable option. Obliterate evil so that it has no chance to do further harm. Destroying evil and move on

What is callous and cowardly is embracing the values of those that do evil. That kill, rape and molest. To hold their life as valuable as the innocent ones that they destroy is to condone their actions as justifiable. Once an act of evil has taken place, there is a consequence that must be adhered to. This consequence must be of the highest value... in taking the life of the murderer. In taking their life, we are showing that we hold human life as the most important value in our society.

Mental issues are no excuse, and the good that might come from a person is irrelevant to the matter at hand. That is ridiculous. Every person that kills, rapes or molests has mental issues. That is the very nature of committing said aggressions. Justifying their actions condones the evil that they have done. It does nothing other than to further the pain on to the victims and elevates you near to the evil level of the one that committed the eveil in the first place.

 

[Serenity]

why is the life of the person that killed someone I love, considered an equal trade for my loved one? how can some total stranger assume that by sentencing the offender to death, things will automatically be squared up? it's not and it never will be. it won't bring closure, that has to come from within.



if anyone is interested, there's a website out there that opposes the death penalty. they campaign on behalf of murder victims and their families.

these a real people, real stories. absolutely heartbreaking. these people know what it's like to lose someone they loved very much, and they are completely against the death penalty.
some of them have witnessed the death penalty being carried out and they say that it gives them absolutely no peace at all. in fact it just creates more victims.

Victims' Stories | Murder Victims

 

[Chappy]

Excerpted from “Home invasion victim's ordeal goes on” By Bob Greene, CNN Contributor, CNN, October 4, 2010 6:22 a.m. EDT
[SIZE="+2"]B[/SIZE]oth men … offered to plead guilty in exchange for life sentences instead of the death penalty.

This story about the ongoing ordeal the victim of this horrible crime is forced to endure so that the prosecutor can seek the death penalty reminds us why capital punishment is such a scourge in our society.

The public and the victim would both have been far better served if the prosecutor had accepted the plea deal and seen both perpetrators off to prison for life. The public would have been spared paying for two costly trials. There would be no costly appeals processes. And, no costly capital punishment facility.

And, for the victim: No sitting in the courtroom enduring the morbid testimony, reliving the horrible events, revisiting each and every brutalization committed against himself and his loved ones. The healing process would have begun immediately.

The one who loses out the most with the plea deal oddly enough is the prosecutor: no national headlines and no “kill crime dead” campaign slogan for the next election. No. He just comes off as a prudent public servant who saw that the public interest and justice were faithfully and economically served.

There has in the last many decades been a campaign for public retribution against those who have harmed us. It flies under the scurrilous flag of “victims rights” but it's not at all about victims or rights. It's about indulging in public vengeance.

And, for this legal retribution campaign to continue it must continue to distract the public from their real stake in the criminal justice system: protecting public safety. Preventing dangerous people from harming others, is the public interest in these matters, not retribution.

The plea deal and the life sentences in the Petit Murders would have achieved the public purpose and, I claim better served the survivor who now has a story written about him and the ordeal he now endures in quest of capital punishments.

 

[Goshin]

why is the life of the person that killed someone I love, considered an equal trade for my loved one? how can some total stranger assume that by sentencing the offender to death, things will automatically be squared up? it's not and it never will be. it won't bring closure, that has to come from within.



if anyone is interested, there's a website out there that opposes the death penalty. they campaign on behalf of murder victims and their families.

these a real people, real stories. absolutely heartbreaking. these people know what it's like to lose someone they loved very much, and they are completely against the death penalty.
some of them have witnessed the death penalty being carried out and they say that it gives them absolutely no peace at all. in fact it just creates more victims.

Victims' Stories | Murder Victims

I disagree. My best friend was murdered in a senseless crime at the age of 24. He was like a brother to me, and he was his widowed mother's only son. She was inconsolable and I wasn't much better off.

The fact that both of the murderers have been put to death was indeed a comfort to both of us, and yes it did help us attain a sense of closure. Justice had been done.

 

[Bodi]

why is the life of the person that killed someone I love, considered an equal trade for my loved one? how can some total stranger assume that by sentencing the offender to death, things will automatically be squared up? it's not and it never will be. it won't bring closure, that has to come from within.

It isn't intended to bring closure... it is intended to be a consequence to an action that is deemed so horrible, that the offender is forced to pay the highest price.

if anyone is interested, there's a website out there that opposes the death penalty. they campaign on behalf of murder victims and their families.

That sucks... they certainly are fighting the wrong fight.

these a real people, real stories. absolutely heartbreaking. these people know what it's like to lose someone they loved very much, and they are completely against the death penalty.
some of them have witnessed the death penalty being carried out and they say that it gives them absolutely no peace at all. in fact it just creates more victims.

No. The Murderer created more victims by murdering somebody knowing that the consequence would be death. It is their fault. You and those at the website are looking at it from the completely wrong way.

 

[Serenity]

I disagree. My best friend was murdered in a senseless crime at the age of 24. He was like a brother to me, and he was his widowed mother's only son. She was inconsolable and I wasn't much better off.

The fact that both of the murderers have been put to death was indeed a comfort to both of us, and yes it did help us attain a sense of closure. Justice had been done.

i am sorry for your loss.

i respect that it may have been comforting for you to see his murderers put to death. i would never argue or debate that because they are your feelings so who am i to tell you how you do or do not feel.

having said that, can you please respect the fact that some others who have lost family members or friends in a similar manner, feel that the death penalty is not what brings closure or comfort and revenge killing serves no good purpose whatsoever.

that's all i'm saying.

 

[Bodi]

Not much of a debater, are you?

 

[TurtleDude]

while I am ambivalent about giving the state the power to fry someone --say in the case of the CT killings, I would have no problem with the guy who was beaten almost to death having an hour with the guys who raped and killed his wife and daughters armed with a blow torch and a presidential and governors complete pardon

 

[Serenity]

Not much of a debater, are you?

Goshin said his best friend was murdered and it was a comfort for him to see the murderers put to death. whilst it wouldn't be comforting to me, i respect his feelings and i'm certainly not going to be disrespectful to those feelings he has as a result of a real life personal situation he has had and tell him those feelings aren't valid.

whether i agree or disagree with him regarding the method of punishment of the murderers, his feelings are valid. they are real.