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When the death penalty is justified...

Whether a sociopath or psychopath can be cured or not depends on the case, severity, and future advancements in science, psychology, and medicine. I am certainly not saying that because they have a mental illness means they can go and kill and terrorize society all they want. What I am saying is that we must change how we deal with these cases as a whole. Some people say we should just kill them without making any advancements in the realm of psychology. I do believe that one day we will be able to cure even the most extreme mental illness but we wont get their by executing or throwing them into jail. Yes society must be protected but we must not forget that even the most sick and seemingly "evil" people who commit crimes are still part of society.
 
They said that the illnessess of the Middle Ages couldnt be cured. They said polio could never be cured. Who is to say mental illnessess will not be curable now or in the future. Yah we can spend 50c for a bullet and kill every single one of those criminals rotting in prison but whose to say they wont spend 50c on a bullet for you even if you had a mental illness.
 
bicycleman said:
You sound like the Internet Tough Guy that you're talking about. How would you react if this happened to your family?
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This question is asked a lot in arguments in favor of the death penalty, and personally I wouldn't want to think about this happening to my family. Going along those lines, and since you're asking this question look a little further into the future and picture these criminals still on death row, still going through trials waiting to be put to death. You probably will not have forgotten about them five or ten years later because it takes so long to put someone to death via capital punishment. Those years you could have been spending trying to heal from your loss are going to be spent dealing with these criminals. You would be looking at their faces every time you stepped in that court room. Again personally I would not even want to deal with these men; I would just want them locked up for life without parole as quickly as possible. It's easy to be caught up in emotions with cases like this one (I certainly think that they are disgusting human beings who should be punished to the full extent that the law would allow), but what's important is that they are not allowed to do this again and also that the victims are given the proper attention to heal.
 
They deserve to die, no doubt about it...
 
Originally Posted by Didactic
Maybe they can or maybe they cannot. It should be based on each particular case. A sociopath is a person with serious psychological and mental illness. All illness can and should be healed. A person with HIV or AIDS has a serious illness but does that mean we lock them away and quarentine them so we do not have to live in fear. No we do not. How about if they got another person infected and killed them, Would they have committed a crime? Not in our society because they have no control over it. Just like if a sociopath killed someone beacause they themselves had no control over it. But yet we judge the two cases very differently.
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Once a capital offense has taken place, the reason for it becomes irrelevant. Mental illness is just an excuse.
 
You really think mental illness is just an excuse? Then cancer is an excuse for people to feel sorry for the people afflicted with it.
 
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Didactic said:
You really think mental illness is just an excuse? Then cancer is an excuse for people to feel sorry for the people afflicted with it.
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What crime are people with concer committing that they should be let off for... because they have cancer? "Oh, don't prosecute the poor guy for murder, he has a medical condition!" Come on, get real... they are distinctly different. Mental illness are not an excuse, they are a condition... they can become an excuse though, if people try to use it for a justifiable reason as to why the murderer should not face the consequence of murder as I would if I murdered.
 
You have me mistaken. You think that what I am saying is that just because they have a mental disorder means they can just get away with murder. What I am saying is that we need to deal with it a different way wrather then killing them or throwing them in prison forever. If we can help them and seek the underlying psychological issues so that we may fix them then we will be able to do that for others even before any crimes are committed. If someone has a contagious disease and kills another person because of it would it help anyone by just killing them? NO! We would seek a cure so all those that have that same disease may be cured. The same goes for mental conditions. Executing them would help no one and do nothing except quench our thirst for revenge because that is what it is. REVENGE not Justice. This is supposed to be the 21st century but we are still acting as if it were the 3rd. Still executing people. Still throwing them in a dungeon. If we all continue to think like you then we will remain in the 3rd century.
 
Didactic said:
You have me mistaken. You think that what I am saying is that just because they have a mental disorder means they can just get away with murder. What I am saying is that we need to deal with it a different way wrather then killing them or throwing them in prison forever. If we can help them and seek the underlying psychological issues so that we may fix them then we will be able to do that for others even before any crimes are committed. If someone has a contagious disease and kills another person because of it would it help anyone by just killing them? NO! We would seek a cure so all those that have that same disease may be cured. The same goes for mental conditions. Executing them would help no one and do nothing except quench our thirst for revenge because that is what it is. REVENGE not Justice. This is supposed to be the 21st century but we are still acting as if it were the 3rd. Still executing people. Still throwing them in a dungeon. If we all continue to think like you then we will remain in the 3rd century.
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and when we "treat" the likes of Jeffery Dalmer, would you be willing to live with them or be a close neighbor, because you know they are cured, right. Call in revenge or whatever, but if someone killed my wife in cold blood, I would have no problem taken that person out.
As far as you point of science trying to understand and cure mental disorders, I agree that should be persued, but not with conviced killers. There are plenty of mentally ill people that could be given the treatment.
 
Didactic said:
You have me mistaken. You think that what I am saying is that just because they have a mental disorder means they can just get away with murder. What I am saying is that we need to deal with it a different way wrather then killing them or throwing them in prison forever. If we can help them and seek the underlying psychological issues so that we may fix them then we will be able to do that for others even before any crimes are committed. If someone has a contagious disease and kills another person because of it would it help anyone by just killing them? NO! We would seek a cure so all those that have that same disease may be cured. The same goes for mental conditions. Executing them would help no one and do nothing except quench our thirst for revenge because that is what it is. REVENGE not Justice. This is supposed to be the 21st century but we are still acting as if it were the 3rd. Still executing people. Still throwing them in a dungeon. If we all continue to think like you then we will remain in the 3rd century.
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Your analogy is way off. If a person accidentally kills another by a disease, it is not a crime unless it was not on accident and it was intentional, then it is a crime and yes, they should be treated the same as one who used a gun to kill another. If you want to take the Night Stalker in and experiment on them like a lab rat so that we can identify, catch and cure others of like issues prior to them committing crimes, then that is something that I could agree to. Otherwise, helping them is not a concern of mine. They committed the crime and should face the appropriate consequence.
 
I think what these men is despicable. But I still couldn't kill them. So I don't think anyone else should either.
 
American said:
If they had sodomized Mr Petit and did nothing to the females, would you feel the same way?
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Yeah, if they'd done it to the man, they'd still need to die. No matter how much worse it is to hurt women and children than to hurt men.
 
Didactic said:
Yah we can kill them, torture them, give them the exact amount of pain they gave that family but in the end what would it accomplish? Nothing, We would just be the killers just like them. Nothing will change unless we can fix the underlying societal problems which cause this madness. Nothing will change unless the proper rehabilitation be given to all criminals no matter what their crimes are.
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bull****, some "people" are just evil and they need to die. you can't "rehabilitate" everyone
 
Didactic said:
Maybe they can or maybe they cannot. It should be based on each particular case. A sociopath is a person with serious psychological and mental illness. All illness can and should be healed. A person with HIV or AIDS has a serious illness but does that mean we lock them away and quarentine them so we do not have to live in fear. No we do not. How about if they got another person infected and killed them, Would they have committed a crime? Not in our society because they have no control over it. Just like if a sociopath killed someone beacause they themselves had no control over it. But yet we judge the two cases very differently.
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no, i think it's been pretty much agreed that sociopaths can not be "cured". and sociopaths DO have control, that's why they can't be cured.
 
kerussll said:
I think what these men is despicable. But I still couldn't kill them. So I don't think anyone else should either.
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Just because you can't kill them doesn't mean that I (or the legal system) can't...
 
You would help all of society you can find ways to help those with mental conditions. Imagine a sociopathic teenager that is helped thanks to medical and psychological advancements so that he may go out to be a successful adult. Now imagine if we had not made those same advancements and still continued with our current way of thinking then that same teenager may just as well gone on and committed a horrible act against another. And then he would be thrown in jail and maybe executed. Then what? Nothing. We just sit and wait for the next one and the next one and the next one.
 
I like your third century definiton of crime and punishment. What is evil? There is sickness and then there is point of view. Those that are sick have almost no idea what they are doing which gives us the sense that they are absolutely evil and remorseless when actually their mind does not process what has happened correctly. There is also point of view. Those whom we call evil dont think of themselves evil. They think of us evil instead. But that is a conversation best saved for a morality forum.
 
I dont think it hasnt and if you think that way I am glad you are not a scientist or psychologist.Back in the Middle Ages I am sure they said those infected with the black plague cant be cured. This is the 21st century and not the middle ages.
 
Didactic said:
You would help all of society you can find ways to help those with mental conditions. Imagine a sociopathic teenager that is helped thanks to medical and psychological advancements so that he may go out to be a successful adult. Now imagine if we had not made those same advancements and still continued with our current way of thinking then that same teenager may just as well gone on and committed a horrible act against another. And then he would be thrown in jail and maybe executed. Then what? Nothing. We just sit and wait for the next one and the next one and the next one.
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First of all... who are you responding to? Please use the "Reply With Quote" link in the bottom right corner of the post when responding from now on, thanks.

I don't think that anybody has a problem with curing mental conditions, so I have no idea why you are indicating that we do. The world would obviously be better off, I know I would not have had to endure 8 years of marriage to one with Borderline Personality Disorder if that was the case. The issue with your argument is that you are presenting a great idea, cure all mental disorders, without a plan. What are we supposed to do then? Without a plan, we have to follow through with a consequence. If you are suggesting that each person who commits a crime undergo psychological testing and that they be kept alive and studied, then that is already happening for serious and unusual cases, if you suggest we experiment on them, that would be considered cruel and unusual.

What do you suggest then, oh compassionate one that thinks so lowly of the rest of us unevolved sub-humans from the third century...

I like your third century definiton of crime and punishment. What is evil? There is sickness and then there is point of view. Those that are sick have almost no idea what they are doing which gives us the sense that they are absolutely evil and remorseless when actually their mind does not process what has happened correctly. There is also point of view. Those whom we call evil dont think of themselves evil. They think of us evil instead. But that is a conversation best saved for a morality forum.
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First off, it is a 7th Century definition... What are you saying? That Stalin wasn't evil, he was just sick? Duh, that is obvious. Evil is an adjective, genuis... not a tangible thing. I am sure that I know far more about mentally sick people then you do, if for no other reason that I was married to one.

I dont think it hasnt and if you think that way I am glad you are not a scientist or psychologist.Back in the Middle Ages I am sure they said those infected with the black plague cant be cured. This is the 21st century and not the middle ages.
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I don't think it hasn't?

What makes you think that I am not a scientist, and I do know many scientists and psychologists who think like I do, so what about that snoop dog?

During the Black Plague, they certainly did think that people could be cured. They just couldn't find the cure...
You know as much about history as you do psychology... and that ain't much.
 
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Bodhisattva said:
Just because you can't kill them doesn't mean that I (or the legal system) can't...
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I am fine with this as long as you are okay with not killing them should society decide to remove the death penalty.
 
Didactic said:
All illness can and should be healed.
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patently false. not ALL illness can be healed. hence terms like "terminal illness"

A person with HIV or AIDS has a serious illness but does that mean we lock them away and quarentine them so we do not have to live in fear. No we do not. How about if they got another person infected and killed them, Would they have committed a crime? Not in our society because they have no control over it.
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wrong again. there have been numerous cases where people with HIV who have infected others have been charged with a crime

Just like if a sociopath killed someone beacause they themselves had no control over it. But yet we judge the two cases very differently.
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are you seriously saying we should overlook murder committed by a sociopath because they just couldn't control themself?
 
liblady said:
no, i think it's been pretty much agreed that sociopaths can not be "cured". and sociopaths DO have control, that's why they can't be cured.
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agreed. there have been numerous studies conducted throughout the years on sociopathic behavior. the conclusion is pretty much the same. sociopaths cannot be cured. it seems they are missing some key component that makes the rest of us humane. Sociopaths are the ultimate narcissists. all they care about is themselves. as long as they get what they want the end justifies any means, even murder.

most people will tend not to kill another person because deep inside they know it is wrong. even most murderers know it is wrong and will feel some remorse. A true sociopath will not.
 
Sociopaths have self control. What they lack are empathy and fear of consequences. Sociopaths are obviously over-represented in the prison system, but there are plenty of high-functioning sociopaths that are fully capable of leading productive non-criminal lives in society.
 
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Viktyr Korimir said:
Sociopaths have self control. What they lack are empathy and and fear of consequences. Sociopaths are obviously over-represented in the prison system, but there are plenty of high-functioning sociopaths that are fully capable of leading productive non-criminal lives in society.
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agreed. you can't cure a sociopath. there is no way for us to create and implant that which they are missing. empathy is something you either have or you don't. you either feel it or not. A sociopath can be taught to pretend to have empathy.
 
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