• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?

When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?


  • Total voters
    65

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
34,817
Reaction score
18,576
Location
Look to your right... I'm that guy.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?

1) Anytime they want, for any reason.
2) For things the customer can control, i.e. dress, attitude, hygiene, etc., but not for things they cannot control, i.e. sex, race/ethnicity, etc.
3) Never.
4) Somewhere in between. (Please elaborate)
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?

1) Anytime they want, for any reason.
2) For things the customer can control, i.e. dress, attitude, hygiene, etc., but not for things they cannot control, i.e. sex, race/ethnicity, etc.
3) Never.
4) Somewhere in between. (Please elaborate)

#2, if they intend to follow the laws. I think #1 is a slippery slope, and #3 is ridiculous.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

People should go to some of the "Chinatowns" in this country and see how this works. I have a friend works as an accountant a couple of blocks from one such area in his city and he tells me the Korean grocers there will not serve Cambodians or Laotians. No one complains, they just shop at the Cambodian grocery down the street.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?

1) Anytime they want, for any reason.
2) For things the customer can control, i.e. dress, attitude, hygiene, etc., but not for things they cannot control, i.e. sex, race/ethnicity, etc.
3) Never.
4) Somewhere in between. (Please elaborate)

Isn't it sad that we have to quantify these things? None of your choices work for me, actually.

I rather like the Fair Housing legislation guidelines. It forbids discrimination based on age, sex, family status, race, religion, sexual orientation and a few more I don't remember offhand. Your choice #2 ones closest, but it would not cover religious discrimination since that is a choice.

My vote is to clearly delineate in the way Fair Housing laws have done.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Anytime they want, for any reason. I realize that isn't the current law but the question asked about what the law SHOULD be.

While I do think such laws were justified in the past, I think we have progressed enough that they are no longer necessary. In today's internet world public shaming is usually enough.

A Christian bakery should be able to refuse gay clients. A restaurant should be able to refuse to serve Trump supporters. A believer should be able to refuse to serve me because I am an atheist. This does not apply to government institutions and public services.

With some exceptions, public accommodation laws should be repealed. Those exceptions apply to businesses that provide essential services in areas in which there are no or few alternatives.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I think it's your business and you should server whomever you see fit. Let the market decide. In this modern age, a restaurant that doesn't serve blacks would be out of business in 5 mins.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Isn't it sad that we have to quantify these things? None of your choices work for me, actually.

I rather like the Fair Housing legislation guidelines. It forbids discrimination based on age, sex, family status, race, religion, sexual orientation and a few more I don't remember offhand. Your choice #2 ones closest, but it would not cover religious discrimination since that is a choice.

My vote is to clearly delineate in the way Fair Housing laws have done.

I like the right to determine who I sell my house too. :shrug: What gets me more than not having the right to saying no for any reason though is that realtors go out of their way to keep you ignorant of who you're selling your house to. That to me is complete ****ing bull**** and something I can't tolerate much at all. This might shock people but knowing who you're doing business with is important.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Isn't it sad that we have to quantify these things? None of your choices work for me, actually.

I rather like the Fair Housing legislation guidelines. It forbids discrimination based on age, sex, family status, race, religion, sexual orientation and a few more I don't remember offhand. Your choice #2 ones closest, but it would not cover religious discrimination since that is a choice.

My vote is to clearly delineate in the way Fair Housing laws have done.
It is sad, I agree.

But even #2 has issues. Curves, for example, does not want male clients. There are other similar examples with other businesses based on sex or race/ethnicity. The reason, ostensibly, is to give some demographics a "safe place" where they can go and do their thing without judgment, yada yada yada. Personally, sounds fine to me, but I do have issues in how it is applied unequally. Some demographics seem to be more equal than others.


Anytime they want, for any reason. I realize that isn't the current law but the question asked about what the law SHOULD be.

While I do think such laws were justified in the past, I think we have progressed enough that they are no longer necessary. In today's internet world public shaming is usually enough.

A Christian bakery should be able to refuse gay clients. A restaurant should be able to refuse to serve Trump supporters. A believer should be able to refuse to serve me because I am an atheist. This does not apply to government institutions and public services.

With some exceptions, public accommodation laws should be repealed. Those exceptions apply to businesses that provide essential services in areas in which there are no or few alternatives.
Absolutely correct, the question is seeking people's opinions on how the law SHOULD BE.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I think it's your business and you should server whomever you see fit. Let the market decide. In this modern age, a restaurant that doesn't serve blacks would be out of business in 5 mins.
Depends on where it is to some extent, but in general I don't believe that for a second.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I like the right to determine who I sell my house too. :shrug: What gets me more than not having the right to saying no for any reason though is that realtors go out of their way to keep you ignorant of who you're selling your house to. That to me is complete ****ing bull**** and something I can't tolerate much at all. This might shock people but knowing who you're doing business with is important.
Should the deed to your house restrict certain races/ethnicity from owning it, if you so desire as the current owner?
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Should the deed to your house restrict certain races/ethnicity from owning it, if you so desire as the current owner?

Yes. I'm the owner of the property and I see no reason why I can't determine on my own who I sell it too.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Yes. I'm the owner of the property and I see no reason why I can't determine on my own who I sell it too.
But if you put it in the deed, you are also dictating what the next owner can and/or cannot do. It's one thing to choose for yourself when you sell, it's quite another to try and dictate what others do after you're out of the picture.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

But if you put it in the deed, you are also dictating what the next owner can and/or cannot do. It's one thing to choose for yourself when you sell, it's quite another to try and dictate what others do after you're out of the picture.

Good point. I take back the yes. My belief is that the state shouldn't stop people from selling their property to who they see fit no matter if that is a house owner, a business owner, or an owner of any other kind of property. Property rights comes with the right to determine who you sell your property to. Saying people can't refuse to sell their property in given situations is a fundamental violation of property rights.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Depends on where it is to some extent, but in general I don't believe that for a second.


Really? You don't think public shaming and protests wouldn't close them down? Or at the very least inclusive competition? You have a rather poor opinion of your fellow man. I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a resturaunt that didn't server blacks or was whites or Asians or XXX only.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Depends on where it is to some extent, but in general I don't believe that for a second.

A dentist can't even go overseas to shoot a lion without being shamed out of business. :)
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Really? You don't think public shaming and protests wouldn't close them down? Or at the very least inclusive competition? You have a rather poor opinion of your fellow man. I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a resturaunt that didn't server blacks or was whites or Asians or XXX only.

Even if public shaming and protests did shut them down the damage would have already been done. Someone would have suffered an act of bigotry.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Assuming by refusing service to that customer they are not knowingly putting them in danger (like refusing to tow a vehicle in the middle of no where in a snow storm) - otherwise, they should be able to refuse anyone for ANY reason (hair color, eye color, skin color, sex, looks, religion...any reason).
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Even if public shaming and protests did shut them down the damage would have already been done. Someone would have suffered an act of bigotry.

That happens EVERY DAY. Bigotry doesn't end just because it's mandated. You could jail people for 10 years for it and it will never go away. Forcing some people to server people they don't want to serve only PERPETUATES it.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?

1) Anytime they want, for any reason.
2) For things the customer can control, i.e. dress, attitude, hygiene, etc., but not for things they cannot control, i.e. sex, race/ethnicity, etc.
3) Never.
4) Somewhere in between. (Please elaborate)

I think our present approach is good, although I'm a little baffled why lgbt's haven't been made a protected class already.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Yes. I'm the owner of the property and I see no reason why I can't determine on my own who I sell it too.
I’m pretty sure you are free to privately sell your house (or not) to anyone you want. If you’re going through a realtor though, wouldn’t they have the right to do business with anyone they want too? If you don’t like their policies around who they sell to and how much information they give you about it, you’re free to find another realtor or handle the sale yourself.

What’s good for the goose… :)
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Really? You don't think public shaming and protests wouldn't close them down? Or at the very least inclusive competition? You have a rather poor opinion of your fellow man. I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a resturaunt that didn't server blacks or was whites or Asians or XXX only.
My opinion of my fellow man fluctuates. I often see good, and I do believe that most people are basically decent. But, there are a lot of assholes out there, too.

Like I said, it would somewhat depend on where. In Berkeley it would not survive. In not as liberally pro-active an area, it may.


A dentist can't even go overseas to shoot a lion without being shamed out of business. :)
Yeah, but that was an animal. People like animals. Professional mercenaries go abroad and shoot other people and don't get called out on it.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I like the right to determine who I sell my house too. :shrug: What gets me more than not having the right to saying no for any reason though is that realtors go out of their way to keep you ignorant of who you're selling your house to. That to me is complete ****ing bull**** and something I can't tolerate much at all. This might shock people but knowing who you're doing business with is important.

I am a retired Realtor. Very successful career. I witnessed more discrimination from people with an attitude like yours* than I care to admit. I witnessed families in fear and tears due to the discrimination they THOUGHT they would encounter. My profession has a rather ugly history thanks to attitudes like yours*. Steer Jews to "their own neighborhoods." Same with Blacks. Sell to a Black or a Jew in the wrong neighborhood and kiss your career goodbye. What an ugly history.

Realtors don't want to keep you apart from the people who made an offer on your house for some nefarious reason. They keep you apart because it's just a matter of time before one or the other party says something REALLY STUPID. I used to joke that I could count down from ten in those rare situations where they stood toe to toe and BEFORE I GOT TO 1, one or the other party would **** up.

As for "knowing who you're doing business with" when it comes to buying or selling your home, you don't need to know that at all. And in the brief time you're likely to associate with them (doing it YOUR way), you'd know nothing about them at all anyway. Your only concern as a seller should be can they afford my house? Can they qualify for a mortgage? Am I happy with their offer price? Period.

Skin color, religion, sexual orientation, family status, etc etc shouldn't have a damn thing to do with it.

*By attitude like yours, I am extrapolating motive from what you've said here. If your intentions are not to be allowed to be prejudiced, my apologies.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I am a retired Realtor. Very successful career. I witnessed more discrimination from people with an attitude like yours* than I care to admit. I witnessed families in fear and tears due to the discrimination they THOUGHT they would encounter. My profession has a rather ugly history thanks to attitudes like yours*. Steer Jews to "their own neighborhoods." Same with Blacks. Sell to a Black or a Jew in the wrong neighborhood and kiss your career goodbye. What an ugly history.

Realtors don't want to keep you apart from the people who made an offer on your house for some nefarious reason. They keep you apart because it's just a matter of time before one or the other party says something REALLY STUPID. I used to joke that I could count down from ten in those rare situations where they stood toe to toe and BEFORE I GOT TO 1, one or the other party would **** up.

As for "knowing who you're doing business with" when it comes to buying or selling your home, you don't need to know that at all. And in the brief time you're likely to associate with them (doing it YOUR way), you'd know nothing about them at all anyway. Your only concern as a seller should be can they afford my house? Can they qualify for a mortgage? Am I happy with their offer price? Period.

Skin color, religion, sexual orientation, family status, etc etc shouldn't have a damn thing to do with it.



I think you forgot a thing or two. Like, if you're moving from your old place to a new place but you don't want to leave a Section 8 renter in your old neighborhood. If the guy who's buying the house is a rental property guy, and you know he'll be renting this house out....would you sell to him? I might not. I would at least want the option.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I think you forgot a thing or two. Like, if you're moving from your old place to a new place but you don't want to leave a Section 8 renter in your old neighborhood. If the guy who's buying the house is a rental property guy, and you know he'll be renting this house out....would you sell to him? I might not. I would at least want the option.

That, my dear Howler, is prejudice.
 
Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

That, my dear Howler, is prejudice.

No, that's being a good neighbor.

If you have too many rental properties in a neighborhood of single-family homes, it can cause property prices to stagnate or even drop. That’s because tenants don’t always maintain homes to the level that owners who actually live in the property do. When homes get rundown, the whole neighborhood suffers.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...orhood-can-cause-property-values-to-stagnate/
 
Back
Top Bottom