When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a customer?

[Eric7216]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Not in favor of anyone having to give up their right of association simply because they want to have a "business". I think that Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is clear on this.
Of course, a smart business will not turn away customers for any reason (except if the customer causes other customers to leave.)

 

[MaggieD]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

No, that's being a good neighbor.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...orhood-can-cause-property-values-to-stagnate/

Yeah, that's the same logic they used about blacks and Jews. "There goes the neighborhood."

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Yeah, that's the same logic they used about blacks and Jews. "There goes the neighborhood."

You'll also notice that I never mentioned race or ethnicity. Just rentals v. owners.

 

[Russell797]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

That happens EVERY DAY. Bigotry doesn't end just because it's mandated. You could jail people for 10 years for it and it will never go away. Forcing some people to server people they don't want to serve only PERPETUATES it.

I agree that it will never go away. That's a reason why society must be vigilant in discouraging such behaviour. People in this free country have a right not to be discriminated against for reasons which they can not control. That's the spirit of Civil Rights. That and your rights can not trample on the rights of others.

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I agree that it will never go away. That's a reason why society must be vigilant in discouraging such behaviour. People in this free country have a right not to be discriminated against for reasons which they can not control. That's the spirit of Civil Rights. That and your rights can not trample on the rights of others.

So if you have a 'right' to eat where you please, you can 'trample' another's right to religious expression? Which way does it work and which way does it not?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

View attachment 67203140

You'll also notice that I never mentioned race or ethnicity. Just rentals v. owners.

I learned to recognize prejudice a mile away Howler. So has HUD.

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I learned to recognize prejudice a mile away Howler. So has HUD.

No, what you're doing is PROJECTING. As a real estate professional you could tell us all. What happens to a neighborhood of single family dwellings that tips to rentals?

We'll wait.

 

[Fishking]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

#2, if they intend to follow the laws. I think #1 is a slippery slope, and #3 is ridiculous.

#1 is a slippery slope for what?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

No, what you're doing is PROJECTING. As a real estate professional you could tell us all. What happens to a neighborhood of single family dwellings that tips to rentals?

We'll wait.

I have never seen that tip you speak of. Never. I live in the Chicago suburbs. Haven't seen it in the burbs nor in the city. There are Section 8 housing properties everywhere . . . Giving the poorest among us an opportunity to live apart from gangs and shootings in the streets.

Just admit it, Howler. You are prejudiced. Your ilk are a danger to a fine Realtor's career.

 

[Fishking]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Anytime they want, for any reason. I realize that isn't the current law but the question asked about what the law SHOULD be.

While I do think such laws were justified in the past, I think we have progressed enough that they are no longer necessary. In today's internet world public shaming is usually enough.

A Christian bakery should be able to refuse gay clients. A restaurant should be able to refuse to serve Trump supporters. A believer should be able to refuse to serve me because I am an atheist. This does not apply to government institutions and public services.

With some exceptions, public accommodation laws should be repealed. Those exceptions apply to businesses that provide essential services in areas in which there are no or few alternatives.

Another exception would have to be healthcare providers, at least for emergency responders and such. I don't think you could have an EMT refuse to help a black man who was dying from a car crash.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Another exception would have to be healthcare providers, at least for emergency responders and such. I don't think you could have an EMT refuse to help a black man who was dying from a car crash.

Agreed. I classify that as an essential service.

 

[Russell797]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

So if you have a 'right' to eat where you please, you can 'trample' another's right to religious expression? Which way does it work and which way does it not?

You don't have a right to eat where ever you please. You have a right to eat where anyone else has a right to eat. Baking a cake for a gay couple is no different from baking a cake for anyone else. I would agree that the decorating of the cake to symbolize endorsement of gay marriage is not something the baker should have to do, because that is putting words in their mouths. I don't think anyone should have to swear on a Bible or say "so help me God" in court testimony either.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I think it's your business and you should server whomever you see fit. Let the market decide. In this modern age, a restaurant that doesn't serve blacks would be out of business in 5 mins.

Perhaps in certain areas, but I'll wager a shiny nickle in many parts of the country the majority would LOVE an establishment that didn't serve certain ethnic, sexual minorities. Far from out of business in 5 minutes they'd flourish.

Separate but equal is always separate but rarely equal... eace

 

[Henrin]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I’m pretty sure you are free to privately sell your house (or not) to anyone you want. If you’re going through a realtor though, wouldn’t they have the right to do business with anyone they want too? If you don’t like their policies around who they sell to and how much information they give you about it, you’re free to find another realtor or handle the sale yourself.

What’s good for the goose…

They are acting on behalf of the seller, so if they wish to do their job they should respect the wishes of the seller. If however they don't wish to respect the wishes of the seller then they should be fired.

Oh and blocking knowledge of the buyer is in fact keeping the seller ignorant, which is frankly not doing their job either and is grounds to fire their stupid asses.

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I have never seen that tip you speak of. Never. I live in the Chicago suburbs. Haven't seen it in the burbs nor in the city. There are Section 8 housing properties everywhere . . . Giving the poorest among us an opportunity to live apart from gangs and shootings in the streets.

Just admit it, Howler. You are prejudiced. Your ilk are a danger to a fine Realtor's career.

I have seen the tip in many neighborhoods and I'm not in the business as you claim to be. Just admit it, you're not being honest with us.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I like the right to determine who I sell my house too. What gets me more than not having the right to saying no for any reason though is that realtors go out of their way to keep you ignorant of who you're selling your house to. That to me is complete ****ing bull**** and something I can't tolerate much at all. This might shock people but knowing who you're doing business with is important.

I would think a worldly gentleman such as yourself would be a bit more business savvy... past them being well qualified to buy a house you will never live in again why would you care? Who would you want to buy your house? Who would you refuse to sell to?

It might shock you but 'knowing' who you are doing business with is simply can they qualify to buy the home... eace

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

You don't have a right to eat where ever you please. You have a right to eat where anyone else has a right to eat. Baking a cake for a gay couple is no different from baking a cake for anyone else. I would agree that the decorating of the cake to symbolize endorsement of gay marriage is not something the baker should have to do, because that is putting words in their mouths. I don't think anyone should have to swear on a Bible or say "so help me God" in court testimony either.

In the baker's eyes, making that cake IS endorsing gay marriage. Something their religion forbids. As what point does the gay couple's rights supersede the baker's rights? Or the florist's? Or the photographer?

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Perhaps in certain areas, but I'll wager a shiny nickle in many parts of the country the majority would LOVE an establishment that didn't serve certain ethnic, sexual minorities. Far from out of business in 5 minutes they'd flourish.

Separate but equal is always separate but rarely equal... eace

We can't (shouldn't) make federal law on what might happen. Laws based on things you'd "wager a shiny nickle" over are bad laws.

 

[sangha]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

Only when they have a legitimate business justification for doing so such as disruptive behavior or non-conformance with a dress code

 

[Henrin]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I would think a worldly gentleman such as yourself would be a bit more business savvy... past them being well qualified to buy a house you will never live in again why would you care? Who would you want to buy your house? Who would you refuse to sell to?

It might shock you but 'knowing' who you are doing business with is simply can they qualify to buy the home... eace

I should be able to determine what reasons I want to take part in a transaction of my property. If I don't like the individual because he's a rude SOB or because of his race, gender, orientation, religious beliefs, or whatever then I should be able to use that reason too. No one has a right to buy my property against my wishes.

And I'm not in business when I'm selling my house. I am determining who I wish to have something I cared about and took care of for however long I owned it.

Oh and yes, knowing who the other party is just so happens to be something I care about. If you wish to buy my property and at the same time keep your identity private then frankly I don't want to sell you anything.

 

[Aberration]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I have the freedom of association and the right to the product of my labor. It doesnt matter the laws. I will still find a way not to serve you.


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[Russell797]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

In the baker's eyes, making that cake IS endorsing gay marriage. Something their religion forbids. As what point does the gay couple's rights supersede the baker's rights? Or the florist's? Or the photographer?

I believe the Libertarian philosophy which resolves rights in conflict is "the better common good". Which stance is in the interest of the better common good for society?

The baker is not required to deliver product to the weeding and neither is a florist. A photographer ( I do some myself ) is not required to take a job on the site of the gay wedding. Neither is a band or a disc jockey. In their place of business however they should be treating everyone equally.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

We can't (shouldn't) make federal law on what might happen. Laws based on things you'd "wager a shiny nickle" over are bad laws.

How old are you? It DID happen- white only restaurants, sundown towns, white only hotels.... the history is there so these laws we ALREADY have come from actually events and shouldn't be rolled back because some more think the 'invisible hand' of the marketplace will do a better job in this than it did in the financial sector... eace

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

I believe the Libertarian philosophy which resolves rights in conflict is "the better common good". Which stance is in the interest of the better common good for society?

The baker is not required to deliver product to the weeding and neither is a florist. A photographer ( I do some myself ) is not required to take a job on the site of the gay wedding. Neither is a band or a disc jockey. In their place of business however they should be treating everyone equally.

I have no problem with 'the better common good' as long as the Constitution isn't violated. And violating the 1st Amendment just doesn't cut it. Violating the Constitution is anathema to Libertarians as well as Conservatives.

 

[Howler63]

Re: When should a business be legally allowed to be able to refuse service to a custo

How old are you? It DID happen- white only restaurants, sundown towns, white only hotels.... the history is there so these laws we ALREADY have come from actually events and shouldn't be rolled back because some more think the 'invisible hand' of the marketplace will do a better job in this than it did in the financial sector... eace

Agreed, and those laws had a place in that time. Not today.