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When "Science" Is Wrong About Something....

Why do scientists refer to "laws" such as The Law of Gravity or the Laws of Thermodynamics? Are those not rules by which scientific theory needs to abide? Biblical principles are no different in that respect. Those that develop Biblical theory which doesn't abide by the fundamental laws of God and those that develop scientific theories that don't abide by the fundamental laws of nature are not all that different in their error.
There is a difference between a scientific theory and scientific Law. Simply put, Law describes an observable phenomenon and what is expected to happen. Theory (scientific, not the generic use of the term) logically explains why the phenomenon occurs.
 
There is a difference between a scientific theory and scientific Law. Simply put, Law describes an observable phenomenon and what is expected to happen. Theory (scientific, not the generic use of the term) logically explains why the phenomenon occurs.
Agreed, and that's why I stated that the theory needs to abide by the law in both the case of science and of religion.
 
Not really...man's concept of science evolves...science is what it's always been...
How would you know you have finally arrived at real ultimate science, as opposed to just another weigh station in its evolution?

The value of science has been in the extraordinary fruitfulness of its method, leading to ever advancing progress and growth, not on any ultimate final results that we can point to in claim is ultimate truth.
 
Agreed, and that's why I stated that the theory needs to abide by the law in both the case of science and of religion.
Just about every case, where a religious law could be tested and verified by observation in scientific method, it has turned out to be wrong. That’s why there is a sneaking suspicion that all these laws are just man-made laws projected to a heaven of certainty and immutability.
 
How would you know you have finally arrived at real ultimate science, as opposed to just another weigh station in its evolution?

The value of science has been in the extraordinary fruitfulness of its method, leading to ever advancing progress and growth, not on any ultimate final results that we can point to in claim is ultimate truth.
lol...we don't, that's why our concept keeps changing...
 
Not really...man's concept of science evolves...science is what it's always been...
Yes really.

It’s how we have cars, airplanes, space stations, chemo drugs, computers, internet, antibiotics, pain killers, birth control, CAT scans, ultrasounds….
 
Perhaps then what we should learn is that science should be treated as faith. That which we know we can cite as knowledge. That which we believe based on current understandings can likewise be cited as what we may currently think or believe..but not as something that is gospel.

The COVID experience gives countless examples of that very thing.
 
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Love Thy Neighbor​


Leviticus 19:18

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.




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This is America, 2023 and we are the wisest, most knowledgeable people the world has ever known. To that end, what is "good" or "bad" is dependent entirely on the collective conscious at any given time, as interpreted by the prevailing political system. If, for example, the collective conscious has decided that X is good, and political powers agree, then X is good. If, a week later, the collective conscious decides that X is bad and the political powers agree then X is bad. Furthermore, if the collective conscious agrees that X is good and the political powers disagree then the political system has, without question, been taken over by Fascists.
Well, it's the US, anyway. Which is pretty good, by contrast to most of the rest of the World, to be sure.

I don't know that we should claim to be the wisest. The US Declaration of Independence sets forth inalienable rights, including to "Life, Liberty & the pursuit of Happiness". But there are no guarantees on reaching/achieving any of it. (Nor is the enumeration there legally binding.) Certainly, we could be the best informed - we have access to libraries, the Internet, etc. But it's not clear that we actually use all those resources when coming to conclusions.
 
Why do scientists refer to "laws" such as The Law of Gravity or the Laws of Thermodynamics? Are those not rules by which scientific theory needs to abide? Biblical principles are no different in that respect. Those that develop Biblical theory which doesn't abide by the fundamental laws of God and those that develop scientific theories that don't abide by the fundamental laws of nature are not all that different in their error.
IF the common Western Civ. definition of God is correct: Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, standing outside of time & space & indeed, the universe - which He/She created, then: What are the fundamental laws of God? If God has only to think something, & it springs into being - doesn't that mock the very notion of law?

I think that trying to apply human language &/or logic to God is a mistake - the categories' description (divine & profane) don't seem to overlap. We don't have the concepts nor the vocabulary we'd need to comprehend the content, & we certainly can't reasonably express something to far out of human experience.
 
Why do scientists refer to "laws" such as The Law of Gravity or the Laws of Thermodynamics? Are those not rules by which scientific theory needs to abide? Biblical principles are no different in that respect. Those that develop Biblical theory which doesn't abide by the fundamental laws of God and those that develop scientific theories that don't abide by the fundamental laws of nature are not all that different in their error.

All "laws" of science are just our latest models. If there is a new observation which contradicts these "laws", or if someone comes up with a better model which can explain more things, allows us to build cooler things, etc.... the current laws will go, and will be replaced with the new ones. There is nothing sacred, or unquestionable, or immutable about any of them. They are just imaginative human constructs which are just contingently the best explanation we have of things so far.

It turns out that even Newton's "laws", thought for so long to be almost a revelation from God ("Newton had glimpsed the mind of God") are just approximations, useful for only everyday speeds and sizes, and don't hold for many (actually most) circumstances in the universe. If scientists were to glom on to them as "laws" and not be open to new experiences to modify, or even replace them altogether, the enterprise of science could not go forward.
 
Yes really.

It’s how we have cars, airplanes, space stations, chemo drugs, computers, internet, antibiotics, pain killers, birth control, CAT scans, ultrasounds….
lol...new discoveries is NOT science evolving...
 
IF the common Western Civ. definition of God is correct: Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, standing outside of time & space & indeed, the universe - which He/She created, then: What are the fundamental laws of God? If God has only to think something, & it springs into being - doesn't that mock the very notion of law?

I think that trying to apply human language &/or logic to God is a mistake - the categories' description (divine & profane) don't seem to overlap. We don't have the concepts nor the vocabulary we'd need to comprehend the content, & we certainly can't reasonably express something to far out of human experience.
Heh. It's like so many people that believe we are merely playthings of God. Is all that you create merely for your own gratification?
 
All "laws" of science are just our latest models. If there is a new observation which contradicts these "laws", or if someone comes up with a better model which can explain more things, allows us to build cooler things, etc.... the current laws will go, and will be replaced with the new ones. There is nothing sacred, or unquestionable, or immutable about any of them. They are just imaginative human constructs which are just contingently the best explanation we have of things so far.

It turns out that even Newton's "laws", thought for so long to be almost a revelation from God ("Newton had glimpsed the mind of God") are just approximations, useful for only everyday speeds and sizes, and don't hold for many (actually most) circumstances in the universe. If scientists were to glom on to them as "laws" and not be open to new experiences to modify, or even replace them altogether, the enterprise of science could not go forward.
Interesting. The "laws" of science really are no such thing, you say, and only serve as useful tools to understand the world around us. We can not, therefore, "know" science but, through science, as we understand it, we can certainly "know" that there is no God. Very interesting.
 
Interesting. The "laws" of science really are no such thing, you say, and only serve as useful tools to understand the world around us. We can not, therefore, "know" science but, through science, as we understand it, we can certainly "know" that there is no God. Very interesting.
Science makes no such claims.
 
How would you know you have finally arrived at real ultimate science, as opposed to just another weigh station in its evolution?

The value of science has been in the extraordinary fruitfulness of its method, leading to ever advancing progress and growth, not on any ultimate final results that we can point to in claim is ultimate truth.
Science in Western Civ. is incremental & tentative. TMK, there is no ultimate truth being claimed for science @ all. & in fact - again, in Western Civ. - science had to disavow any interest in eternal truth (beyond the physical materials & facts derived from them) because Christianity claimed all of that truth for itself, & brooked no competition - religious nor secular. That is part of the reason why science disavows any interest in spirits, spooks, ghosts, etc. - if an experiment can't be reproduced by other experimenters, following the procedures, ingredients, etc. of the published experiment, then it's not science that's being performed.
 
Interesting. The "laws" of science really are no such thing, you say, and only serve as useful tools to understand the world around us. We can not, therefore, "know" science but, through science, as we understand it, we can certainly "know" that there is no God. Very interesting.
Not quite. I don’t think you will find many scientists ready to definitively say there is no God. It’s still a hypothesis, much like parallel universes or something.

Most of the atheists who you find rail against God are, when push comes to shove, really just agnostic. Their main beef is with religious dogma and superstition.

Here, for example, is one of the most famous (or notorious, depending on your perspective) atheist scientists of them all, Richard Dawkins, talking about how he can’t be definitively sure there is no God:



It’s just that modern science is starting to show how apparent order can arise spontaneously from complete chaos. This has been shown through approaches as different as evolutionary biology to chaos theory to M theory.

Another example: Stephen Hawking, the late physicist, was very impressed by the seeming order and design of the universe early in his career, pointing to a possible intentional designer (what philosophers in medieval times called the cosmological, or the closely related teleological argument for the existence of God). He was especially intrigued by the apparent “fine-tuning” of the physical constants in physics, from the gravitational constant to Planck’s constant, to allow the emergence of life. But as the physics evolved even during his own lifetime, especially the emergence of M-theory which he helped develop, he began to realize that it was not necessary to posit any deliberate intent to this apparent fine-tuning. It could arise spontaneously.

So in his last book, “The Grand Deaign”, he concludes:

“it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary."

Notice though, how he too does not so far as to definitively rule out the God hypothesis. But it’s just that the more science has grown, the less need there seems to be for this hypothesis.

There are a lot of other problems with the God hypothesis as well besides that the old cosmological argument is becoming less attractive. We can get into those if you like.
 
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When the scientific community gets something wrong, do you think that helps or hurts science's credibility?

My position is, it absolutely HELPS. Admitting they've made a mistake proves there's no bias or prejudice within their own findings. It proves science is doing what science should do. Test, test, and retest to make sure things are truthful. Finding new data/evidence will undoubtedly mean facts and knowledge might change.

Of course to people who are not ideologically opposed to the facts that science can demonstrate, it just proves the process of trial and error is working as it always has.

To those who are anti-science because it doesn’t fit their worldview it means science was wrong, always will be, and we should turn to Baby Jebus or at least the oil lobby for the immutable truth.
 
When the scientific community gets something wrong, do you think that helps or hurts science's credibility?

My position is, it absolutely HELPS. Admitting they've made a mistake proves there's no bias or prejudice within their own findings. It proves science is doing what science should do. Test, test, and retest to make sure things are truthful. Finding new data/evidence will undoubtedly mean facts and knowledge might change.

It helps their credibility..................................ONLY IF they voluntarily admit to being wrong, when they get something wrong.
 
Heh. It's like so many people that believe we are merely playthings of God. Is all that you create merely for your own gratification?
So God is merely Man scaled up? There's no qualitative difference between the powers of God & Man? That seems to miss the point of the discussion.
 
So God is merely Man scaled up? There's no qualitative difference between the powers of God & Man? That seems to miss the point of the discussion.
That's not at all what I asked or suggested. Then again, by ignoring the question asked of you and, instead, asking one of your own, you get to control that narrative going on in your head and THAT is what's important to so many.
 
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