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When public health runs into the politics of reproduction.

minnie616

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When public health runs into the politics of reproduction.
The Zika virus sometimes cause microcephaly -- doctors are unable to determine if the unborn has microcephaly until about 20 weeks gestation making it illegal for women to seek an abortion that birth defect in states that ban abortions at 20 weeks.


From the following article:

This is where public health runs smack into the politics of reproduction. The CDC advises pregnant women with the virus to seek a medical diagnosis for microcephaly and have it confirmed after their baby is born. But some women may wonder whether they want to continue their pregnancies at all under these circumstances.

Here, three facts stand out. First, not all Zika-infected women transmit the virus to their fetuses. Second, if the virus is transmitted, common results are serious birth defects – hearing and vision impairment, seizures, intellectual and physical disability – for which there is no cure. Third, at present doctors are unable to confirm microcephaly until around the 20th week of pregnancy. On these facts, decisions about what course to follow may well be complicated, though at least women in the U.S. have a choice. Unlike most of Central and South America where abortion remains a crime, women in the U.S. have a constitutional right to decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.

Yet in a number of U.S. states, exercising that right has been made increasingly difficult.
In attempts to create abortion-free zones, states have been hacking away at the abortion right any way they can. The general strategy is to make abortion harder to get – harder legally, financially, emotionally and practically. Common tactics include waiting periods, mandatory ultrasounds and burdensome requirements on clinics and providers. Last week the Supreme Court struck down two such provisions in Texas on the ground that neither advanced the health of pregnant women. But among the Texas regulations still in effect is a total ban on abortion after 20 weeks. Recall that microcephaly cannot be definitively diagnosed until after 20 weeks. This means pregnant women may be timed out of legal abortion in Texas, and may not have the resources to go elsewhere.

Timing isn't the only legal problem. Indiana and North Dakota ban abortions sought on the basis of fetal disability, claiming that such abortions are a form of discrimination. Babies born with microcephaly will certainly be disabled: Their heads are small because the brain has not grown as it should have. This is why their health is compromised. If a pregnant woman in North Dakota discloses her Zika-based reason, the abortion will be prohibited and doctors who go ahead out of compassion, conscience or professional judgment are subject to jail time and fines.
...
The age of Zika is not the time – it is never the time – to play politics with women's health or their rights.
As things stand now, Congress refuses to help women avoid pregnancy, while some states are hell-bent on burdening access to abortion for women whose pregnancies are unwanted. In the coming months, more and more Zika-infected women will become pregnant. Some will decide to keep their pregnancies and care for their microcephalic infants into childhood and beyond. Others may make a different choice, law permitting. Right now the law in several states does not permit, but seems content to force unwanted motherhood on what may be a large class of women subject to a new environmental threat.

The Zika Problem: Public Health Runs Smack Into Politics of Reproduction | US News Opinion
 
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sangha

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Here's another opportunity for the so-called "pro-lifers" to demonstrate their belief in the sanctity of life by ignoring human suffering
 

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Here's another opportunity for the so-called "pro-lifers" to demonstrate their belief in the sanctity of life by ignoring human suffering
They don't actually believe in the sanctity of life; calling themselves "pro life" is a Blatant Lie. That's because the world's human overpopulation explosion has caused, as major consequences, Deforestation, Desertification, Overfishing, and Mass Extinctions of Species. By insisting more humans get born, they want to make all that KILLING worse! So the Truth is simply that abortion opponents are Stupidly Prejudiced, they are only "pro human life", and all other life can **DIE** as far as they are concerned.
 

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They don't actually believe in the sanctity of life; calling themselves "pro life" is a Blatant Lie. That's because the world's human overpopulation explosion has caused, as major consequences, Deforestation, Desertification, Overfishing, and Mass Extinctions of Species. By insisting more humans get born, they want to make all that KILLING worse! So the Truth is simply that abortion opponents are Stupidly Prejudiced, they are only "pro human life", and all other life can **DIE** as far as they are concerned.

I know many pro-lifers in real life that are actually pro-life. They try to advocate for those who are born as well.

That being said, most of the noisier of the pro-lifers that I have come across on the boards are more along the lines of "pro-fetus".
 

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I know many pro-lifers in real life that are actually pro-life. They try to advocate for those who are born as well.
That does not appear to be relevant to what I wrote about the lives of non-humans, like trees getting chopped down for firewood, and dolphins starving because we are eating all their food....
 

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When public health runs into the politics of reproduction.
The Zika virus sometimes cause microcephaly -- doctors are unable to determine if the unborn has microcephaly until about 20 weeks gestation making it illegal for women to seek an abortion that birth defect in states that ban abortions at 20 weeks.


From the following article:


The Zika Problem: Public Health Runs Smack Into Politics of Reproduction | US News Opinion

Not sure I'm following you on this Minnie. Are you using zika to justify late term abortions? I personally support abortions at any stage but I don't need zika to justify them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

minnie616

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Not sure I'm following you on this Minnie. Are you using zika to justify late term abortions? I personally support abortions at any stage but I don't need zika to justify them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Elective abortions are legal under Roe v Wade until, Viability.
States have the right to ban ( proscribe abortions at viability ) not before viabilty.
Viabily is usually determined to be about 23 to 24 weeks weeks but each case is individual and states do not / should not have the right to arbriterialy set a date earlier than viability to ban/ proscribe an abortion.
 

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Not sure I'm following you on this Minnie. Are you using zika to justify late term abortions? I personally support abortions at any stage but I don't need zika to justify them.

I agree with you. But I think cases like this are a good way of demonstrating how strict term limits can harm people in very objectively real ways. There are many serious, painful, or fatal defects that we can't see until 18 to 20 weeks, and that's the reason for most abortions occurring at this time. Microcephaly caused by zika is just a particularly timely example, and one of many.

It's a way of pointing out the concrete, real suffering that policies like this can cause.

While I agree with your implication that we should be debating this on its ethical merits alone (most relevantly to me, that people always have a right to protect their bodies), the fact is that, firstly, some people are just incapable of understanding that, and secondly, it is objectively true that most women aborting this late have serious medical reasons for doing so. And that just adds a level of insult to injury that politicians are playing games with their rights in these situations.

These are women who don't even want an abortion. They're getting one because they either have no choice, or as an act of mercy for a horrifically impaired fetus. These are women we should be treating with a special degree of compassion, if anything. And it says something about the anti-choice movement that they in fact treat them with a special degree of malice.
 
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Amla

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To me reproduction is between two people who love each other and for some reason postpone having children. At the time there are only two people. When the woman gets pregnant at the wront time in her life then the matter is between she and her doctor. Insurance companies are supposed to be there to cover medical procedures that are necessary in the eyes of the woman at the time. We, as a people who takes all genders in consideration must device a way to solve this without bringing religious views of the few into the fore. Why? Because those who don't want an abortion due to their religious bedliefs wont have one and it is up to them not have one.
If I want an abortion for any reason at all that is and individual decission and it is between me and God and the professional who performs the procedure. To make a medical procedure like abortion illegal isn't in the best interest of the population.
I remember when it was ilegal. I had a couple of aquaintances who died due to a butcher without medical training performing one of them and the other was a younger girl who didn't want her parents to know and did it herself in the bathroom with a coat hanger and bled to death. She was the daughter of a well to do family who was in grief but surprised at the event because of the daughter's religious upbringing. This couple who was for against abortion change their views, realizing the deaths that the prohibition have broung.
I am a Liberal Democrat who does not believe in aborting a life, I have had opportunities to counsel about the pros and cons about it to young girls taking in consideration my religious education. Some decided not to have it and they are dealing with raising a child and not finding jobs that allows them to take off from work when the child is sick and the child care place does not allow sick children. She is homeless and I am trying to place her in a shelter. It seems that those who preach against abortion like to speak but their words are empty when it comes to actions. Those who have dicided to have an abortion during the first 2 months, some went to college, some got married after a couple of years of work and study. They are taking care of themselves and their families.
We as religious couselors cannot predict the future of every one or make any one do anything they don't want to do. And we must not judge the person.
 

TheGoverness

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To me reproduction is between two people who love each other and for some reason postpone having children. At the time there are only two people. When the woman gets pregnant at the wront time in her life then the matter is between she and her doctor. Insurance companies are supposed to be there to cover medical procedures that are necessary in the eyes of the woman at the time. We, as a people who takes all genders in consideration must device a way to solve this without bringing religious views of the few into the fore. Why? Because those who don't want an abortion due to their religious bedliefs wont have one and it is up to them not have one.
If I want an abortion for any reason at all that is and individual decission and it is between me and God and the professional who performs the procedure. To make a medical procedure like abortion illegal isn't in the best interest of the population.
I remember when it was ilegal. I had a couple of aquaintances who died due to a butcher without medical training performing one of them and the other was a younger girl who didn't want her parents to know and did it herself in the bathroom with a coat hanger and bled to death. She was the daughter of a well to do family who was in grief but surprised at the event because of the daughter's religious upbringing. This couple who was for against abortion change their views, realizing the deaths that the prohibition have broung.
I am a Liberal Democrat who does not believe in aborting a life, I have had opportunities to counsel about the pros and cons about it to young girls taking in consideration my religious education. Some decided not to have it and they are dealing with raising a child and not finding jobs that allows them to take off from work when the child is sick and the child care place does not allow sick children. She is homeless and I am trying to place her in a shelter. It seems that those who preach against abortion like to speak but their words are empty when it comes to actions. Those who have dicided to have an abortion during the first 2 months, some went to college, some got married after a couple of years of work and study. They are taking care of themselves and their families.
We as religious couselors cannot predict the future of every one or make any one do anything they don't want to do. And we must not judge the person.

Hello, Amla! Welcome to DP! :2wave:

I agree with your post wholeheartedly. :thumbs:
 

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I am a counselor and yes I am pro-life which for those who respect life means that I as a human have the right to make decission respecting my own abilty to have a child. Yes I respect all life as they are now living. But, I also understand that even thought I will not have an abortion, I see those who do have one and listen to their reasoning, respect their decission and I follow the forgiveness that I have learned during my religious education. God wants us to follow His commandments bur we must remember that we cannot keep anyone from performing the right to use their free will the best way they see fit for themselves. I let God do the judging at His own time. For that I use the story in the Bible of Cain killing Abel,even though God loved Abel. God counseled Abel but did not stop him, because that would have interfere with Cain free will. God did pass judgement but did not imprisoned or killed Cain. On the contrary, no one could avenge Abel's death. So, if that though was good enough for the Supreme Deity then it must be good enough for humans which follow God's commands.
 

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I remember when it was ilegal. I had a couple of aquaintances who died due to a butcher without medical training performing one of them and the other was a younger girl who didn't want her parents to know and did it herself in the bathroom with a coat hanger and bled to death. She was the daughter of a well to do family who was in grief but surprised at the event because of the daughter's religious upbringing. This couple who was for against abortion change their views, realizing the deaths that the prohibition have broung.

This is exactly what happens when it is illegal - women go to back alley providers and many suffer for it. I watched a friend almost die from an illegal abortion. The "father" was a married minister (and no, I did not condone that, though I did not know at the time who she was seeing, she wouldn't tell anyone) and head of the local "Right to Life" chapter. He pushed her to abort, she didn't want to. At the time, I was anti choice. That turned me pro choice, as I realized that women would abort, no matter what *I* or anyone else thought about it, and it needed to be safe and legal.




I am a Liberal Democrat who does not believe in aborting a life, I have had opportunities to counsel about the pros and cons about it to young girls taking in consideration my religious education. Some decided not to have it and they are dealing with raising a child and not finding jobs that allows them to take off from work when the child is sick and the child care place does not allow sick children. She is homeless and I am trying to place her in a shelter. It seems that those who preach against abortion like to speak but their words are empty when it comes to actions. Those who have dicided to have an abortion during the first 2 months, some went to college, some got married after a couple of years of work and study. They are taking care of themselves and their families.
We as religious couselors cannot predict the future of every one or make any one do anything they don't want to do. And we must not judge the person.


I hope your friend gets back on her feet soon.
 

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I am ... who does not believe in aborting a life
YOU MIGHT BE WORKING WITH INCOMPLETE INFORMATION. Human life is In Measurable Fact not as special as claimed by most abortion opponents. I wrote the article at the link so I didn't have to keep repeating stuff (a large number of relevant Facts) here. So far **NO** abortion opponent has pointed out a single factual or logical error in that article. Instead they resort to "generic denunciation", which technically is entirely equivalent to "worthless blather".
 

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This is exactly what happens when it is illegal - women go to back alley providers and many suffer for it.
THERE IS ANOTHER THING THAT ALSO HAPPENS, as documented here. Perhaps pro-choicers should mention it more often.... Mothers were basically telling the State, "You want them born? Then you pay for them!"
 

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Here's another opportunity for the so-called "pro-lifers" to demonstrate their belief in the sanctity of life by ignoring human suffering

It is ironic and horrific that the killing of the unborn is the solution to human suffering for some. Sad.
 

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It is ironic and horrific that the killing of the unborn is the solution to human suffering for some. Sad.

Apparently you do not understand the human suffering that giving birth will cause some of these babies and their families.
It is a difficut decision that should be left up the mother with the input from her doctor how severe the outlook will be if she continued the pregnacy.

Sad you wish to close your eyes to the human suffering these conditions/malformations cause.
 

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It is ironic and horrific that the killing of the unborn is the solution to human suffering for some. Sad.
TRUTH IS TRUTH, and often seems to be something impossible for abortion opponents to accept. In this case, your error is the word "solution", which should have been "prevention". That's because you have made the very-common mistake of most abortion opponents, thinking that human mental development is an inevitable consequence of purely biological development.

NOPE! Human minds cannot develop "normally" without lots of Nurture, after birth. The Default Natural Human is equal to a "feral child". The mental stimulation associated with normal human Nurturing is so potent that even a gorilla or an orangutan can benefit from it --and the consequences of normal human Nurturing are so common (because feral children are extremely rare) that many humans (like most abortion opponents) make the mistake of thinking the result happens without the Nurturing.

NOPE! All you get is a clever animal, like an ordinary chimpanzee or gorilla or orangutan (only a bit cleverer, since we do have more total brainpower).

THE NET EFFECT IS, the human body is a "vehicle" for a mind, much like a car is a vehicle for a driver. When a car comes off the production line, a driver can very-soon become associated with the car, not before. If the car is defective ("a lemon"), the driver has the right to get the manufacturer to fix it, or even replace it.

BUT THAT LAST BIT OF ANALOGY doesn't work for human bodies and their drivers, their minds. It takes more than a year after birth for the human driver develop enough to become aware of its own existence, much less acquire the full capabilities normally associated with personhood. And when that mind develops, it is stuck with its vehicle, its body, regardless of how defective is that body, for a lifetime. Abortion opponents somehow think that those minds deserve to suffer, just because the bodies were defective. Pro-choicers, since they are more compassionate, know that the body is irrelevant, and if it is very badly defective, it can be replaced more easily than it can be fixed --and the sooner it is aborted before birth, the less resources are wasted in the construction of that mindless defective vehicle. NO human mind deserves to begin existing inside a lemon body and then suffer for a lifetime!
 
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TRUTH IS TRUTH, and often seems to be something impossible for abortion opponents to accept. In this case, your error is the word "solution", which should have been "prevention". That's because you have made the very-common mistake of most abortion opponents, thinking that human mental development is an inevitable consequence of purely biological development.

NOPE! Human minds cannot develop "normally" without lots of Nurture, after birth. The Default Natural Human is equal to a "feral child". The mental stimulation associated with normal human Nurturing is so potent that even a gorilla or an orangutan can benefit from it --and the consequences of normal human Nurturing are so common (because feral children are extremely rare) that many humans (like most abortion opponents) make the mistake of thinking the result happens without the Nurturing.

NOPE! All you get is a clever animal, like an ordinary chimpanzee or gorilla or orangutan (only a bit cleverer, since we do have more total brainpower).

THE NET EFFECT IS, the human body is a "vehicle" for a mind, much like a car is a vehicle for a driver. When a car comes off the production line, a driver can very-soon become associated with the car, not before. If the car is defective ("a lemon"), the driver has the right to get the manufacturer to fix it, or even replace it.

BUT THAT LAST BIT OF ANALOGY doesn't work for human bodies and their drivers, their minds. It takes more than a year after birth for the human driver develop enough to become aware of its own existence, much less acquire the full capabilities normally associated with personhood. And when that mind develops, it is stuck with its vehicle, its body, regardless of how defective is that body, for a lifetime. Abortion opponents somehow think that those minds deserve to suffer, just because the bodies were defective. Pro-choicers, since they are more compassionate, know that the body is irrelevant, and if it is very badly defective, it can be replaced more easily than it can be fixed --and the sooner it is aborted before birth, the less resources are wasted in the construction of that mindless defective vehicle. NO human mind deserves to begin existing inside a lemon body and then suffer for a lifetime!

Truth is truth. The truth in this case, is that we have a unique human child who is subject to the whim of society. The subjective part unfortunately for the child is that there are those who feel his life is theirs to dispose of at will, and it is by law. Unfortunate for the child.
Pro-Choicers have the understanding that the defective body is disposable, so you are right that far. It will be replaced in the end, but not by the hand of men.
In all your truth, all you are really saying is that a poorly functioning body (child) is not something you really want to have to deal with, so better just off him/her for the sake of all involved.
If your argument were carried over and applied to many living, you would think they should be killed as well.
Our society just hasn't reached that level of depravity yet.
Sanctity of life means something. WHen we lose this as a society, and we are well on our way, there is no end to the evil we will do as a society.
 

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Truth is truth. The truth in this case, is that we have a unique human child
FALSE, RIGHT OFF THE BAT. An unborn human is so very different from a typical child (or baby) that it is unwise to ever call it a "child" (or "baby"). (I wrote that linked article so I don't have to keep re-posting all the relevant facts in these forums.) An unborn human does have a unique set of DNA, that is true. What is also true is that it has about a 2/3 chance of Naturally dying before birth, because that unique DNA is often defective. Therefore its uniqueness doesn't mean squat.

FALSE, AGAIN! The word "who" is reserved for referencing persons, and in no way does an unborn human qualify as a person. It is not a person according to the Law, and it is not a person according to all the available scientific data, either. The concepts of "human" and "person" are totally separate and distinct concepts. There are things that are 100% human, like a cuticle cell or a hydatidiform mole, but not even an abortion opponent would call those human entities "persons". And for thousands of years humans have been imagining person-class entities that were non-human, from angels to Klingons. There is NO doubt that just because something is human, it is not automatically a person, and just because something is a person, it is not automatically human. Two Different Concepts!

is subject to the whim of society.
JUST LIKE ANY OTHER MERE-ANIMAL ENTITY. So what?

The subjective part unfortunately for the {unborn human animal entity} is that there are those who feel his life is theirs to dispose of at will, and it is by law.
IT HASN'T GOT THE BRAINPOWER TO NOTICE. Biology equips brains with an Operating System. That doesn't suffice to make the brain a person, any more than a typical computer, with its Operating System, qualifies as a computer. It takes very advanced software for a brain (or a computer) to qualify as a person --and as mentioned in my previous post, brains don't write personhood software for themselves until well after birth. Do you have any qualms about turning off your computer and trashing it, when you don't need it any more? What makes an unborn human animal entity different? Stupid Prejudice ("its human!")???

Unfortunate for the {unborn human animal entity}.
FORTUNE IS IRRELEVANT. Remember about 2/3 of them Naturally die anyway, due to software bugs in their DNA.

Pro-Choicers have the understanding that the defective body is disposable, so you are right that far.
BECAUSE NATURE DISPOSES OF SO MANY OF THEM ALREADY, a few more don't make a significant difference. Despite roughly 30 million abortions worldwide each year, total global human population is still growing by about 80 million per year.

It will be replaced in the end, but not by the hand of men.
YOUR MERE SAY-SO IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

In all your truth, all you are really saying is that a poorly functioning body ({unborn human animal entity}) is not something you really want to have to deal with,
STUPIDLY FALSE, when I specifically stated it was the mind that can develop in that body, that should not have to deal with it.

so better just off him/her for the sake of all involved.
YOU PUT DOWN A HORSE WITH A BROKEN LEG, RIGHT?

If your argument were carried over and applied to many living, you would think they should be killed as well.
SEE ABOVE.

Our society just hasn't reached that level of depravity yet.
HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! Depravity is forcing people to suffer, like abortion opponents want.

Sanctity of life means something.
NOT IF YOU CAN'T PROVE IT.

When we lose this as a society, and we are well on our way, there is no end to the evil we will do as a society.
WE ARE NOT WELL ON OUR WAY TO BANNING ABORTION AND DEPRAVEDLY DEMAND HUMANS SUFFER UNNECESSARILY
 

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The truth in this case, is that we have a unique human child who is subject to the whim of society.
No, we have a human fetus, but to be sure there are human children that are subjects to the whims of society when they are denied healthcare and general well being and opportunity because they are poor and people like you oppose measures that would overcome their financial disadvantage.
 

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FALSE, RIGHT OFF THE BAT. An unborn human is so very different from a typical child (or baby) that it is unwise to ever call it a "child" (or "baby"). (I wrote that linked article so I don't have to keep re-posting all the relevant facts in these forums.) ......

Yes, I read your sophomoric paper. It is a decent work I guess if it's purpose is to convince pro-choice folks that they are doing the right thing.
You don't seem to get that you live in your own private idaho. When you think of other paradigms, what do you see?
 

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No, we have a human fetus, but to be sure there are human children that are subjects to the whims of society when they are denied healthcare and general well being and opportunity because they are poor and people like you oppose measures that would overcome their financial disadvantage.

I was a child that grew up with significant financial disadvantage. I got myself out. I don't need a bunch of socialists to life me. Thanks though, but please stop trying to take care of me. You are hurting my freedom.
 

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I was a child that grew up with significant financial disadvantage.
Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. Facts remain and countless children not fetuses are left at the whims of selfish ignorant peopler who can only see as far as their nose extends.

I got myself out. I don't need a bunch of socialists to life me.
Good for you now stop speaking for others.

but please stop trying to take care of me.
I am not trying to take care of you, I really do not give a crap, but I do wish to make real and meaningful opportunity available to those who otherwise would be deprived of it. Now go back to your ignorant talking points about socialists since that is all you can muster while clearly not even understanding the word.

You are hurting my freedom.
Actually I am not but you are that of others.
 

FutureIncoming

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Yes, I read your sophomoric paper. It is a decent work I guess if it's purpose is to convince pro-choice folks that they are doing the right thing.
IF IT HAS A FLAW, WHY DON'T YOU POINT IT OUT? Abortion opponents tend to blather generic denunciations (like calling it "sophomoric") about it --and about other things I posted at the fightforsense site-- but none so far has specified even one single specific flaw.

You don't seem to get that you live in your own private idaho. When you think of other paradigms, what do you see?
LIKE THIS?
 

Cable

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IF IT HAS A FLAW, WHY DON'T YOU POINT IT OUT? Abortion opponents tend to blather generic denunciations (like calling it "sophomoric") about it --and about other things I posted at the fightforsense site-- but none so far has specified even one single specific flaw.


LIKE THIS?

You do a pretty good job of laying things out in your papers, but the flaws are fundamental. I am a bit busy now, but I might, when I have some time, point some things out.
 
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