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When is it OK to shoot a cop?

Wan

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?
 

Skeptic Bob

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If he is trying to murder you or rape you or something like that. But in those cases he isn’t BEING a cop. For the overwhelming majority of instances involving police abuse of power it is just best to challenge it in court.
 

Hawkeye10

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?

Never, do as you are told. If the cop is wrong then take that up with others later, certainly others in the justice system, but perhaps journalists as well.
 

Common Sense 1

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I think the answer is very dependent on specific fact of the incident.
Very hard to generalize something like this.


Resisting Arrest When Police Use Excessive Force
In most states, arrestees can resist arrest only in limited circumstances.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/resisting-arrest-when-police-use-excessive-force.html

It’s rare that someone being placed under arrest has the right to forcefully resist. But in most states, if the arresting officer uses excessive force that could cause “great bodily harm,” the arrestee has the right to defend him or herself. That’s because most states hold that an officer’s use of excessive force amounts to assault or battery, which a victim has a right to defend against.

An officer’s use of force is “excessive” if it is likely to result in unjustifiable great bodily harm (serious injury). Most states consider whether a “reasonable person” under the circumstances would have believed that the officer’s use of force was likely to cause great physical harm (including death). If the answer is “yes”—if a reasonable person would have felt it necessary to resist in self-defense, and if that person used a reasonable degree of force when resisting, then the resistance is typically justified. But this is a very high standard to meet, such that courts hardly ever find that an arrestee’s forceful resistance was defensible.

On the rare occasion that a court finds that an arrestee was entitled to resist excessive force, the determination shifts to whether the amount of force he or she used was appropriate. Although the precise rules vary by state, in general, the amount of force used to resist arrest must be proportional to the amount of excess force used by the arresting officer.

read the rest at the web site
 

Lursa

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?

According to you, never. Because you have claimed, in writing many times here, that any killing is murder.

You have also claimed that killing in self-defense, war, and abortion are murder.
 

Common Sense 1

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Civilian self-defense vs. police excessive force: It's not that simple

Resisting officers is becoming more prevalent and socially acceptable by certain groups

https://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/372596006-Civilian-self-defense-vs-police-excessive-force-Its-not-that-simple/

Does a person being detained or arrested by a police officer have the right to self-defense if the person feels the officer is using excessive force? The answer to this question as written is obviously "no," but with the current climate of resisting officers becoming more prevalent and socially acceptable by certain groups the question needs deeper exploration.

The follow-up question that is not as simple is: "Does a person have the right to self-defense if the officer uses excessive force?" Notice the subtle difference in the two questions: The first includes the subject’s subjective belief while the second is more generic and definitely needs clarification if asked.

First, it is important to understand that every person has the ancient and esteemed right to self-defense in general. But even this does not fully answer the question.
 

Xelor

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When is it OK to shoot a cop?
Let's get this right: It's, IMO, never "okay" to shoot a person, and anyone who thinks otherwise will likely find no common ground with me. On rare occasion, it can be necessary to shoot a person.

When is it necessary to shoot a LEO? When s/he is off-duty or otherwise not clearly working as a LEO, and poses a clear and present danger to one's life. Put another way, the guidelines for when it's necessary to shoot a cop are no different than they are for shooting anyone else.
 

Jetboogieman

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If he is trying to murder you or rape you or something like that. But in those cases he isn’t BEING a cop. For the overwhelming majority of instances involving police abuse of power it is just best to challenge it in court.

This is just off the top of my head conjecture, from a lot of stuff I've seen and read.

Problem is it would seem most citizens, at least in the US, especially if you live in certain jurisdictions, may not have that recourse, either because you don't have the funds or the local justice system will block you for a multitude of reasons, one of the biggest issues with Law Enforcement in the United States is a massive lack of proper oversight mechanisms in many police forces, especially in smaller towns and rural areas, they don't do a good job of policing themselves and so, let's say you're in a small town and your house is raided by mistake, the two outcomes don't seem good.

So when it comes to obtaining evidence of impropriety on the part of the police, it's difficult because the blue wall of silence is exacerbated by poor or non-existent oversight.

1. You don't shoot the police, but it's really difficult to get compensation for the wrongful raid and damage it may have caused to your property and god forbid anyone was hurt, but for the reasons I mentioned about, it may be difficult for you to get recourse.

2. You believe in that moment your life is in danger, you do shoot at the police, you'll likely be killed and because of your actions, the likelihood of your family getting compensation for wrongful death given that a jury will probably side with the officers involved as they often do, you're ****ed there too.

I mean I'm only picking on a mistaken raid as an example, but I think it does highlight potential issues that come about from the OP's question.
 
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Xelor

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I think the answer is very dependent on specific fact of the incident.
Very hard to generalize something like this.


....

Red:
Largely, I agree. Indeed, when I read the title question and OP, I wondered why on Earth we're even being asked to do so. (Obviously, nobody's going to enumerate every stinking instance whereby shooting a cop is warranted, moral/ethical and lawful.)
 

Xelor

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This is just off the top of my head conjecture, from a lot of stuff I've seen and read.

Problem is it would seem most citizens, at least in the US, especially if you live in certain jurisdictions, may not have that recourse, either because you don't have the funds or the local justice system will block you for a multitude of reasons, one of the biggest issues with Law Enforcement in the United States is a massive lack of proper oversight mechanisms in many police forces, especially in smaller towns and rural areas, they don't do a good job of policing themselves and so, let's say you're in a small town and your house is raided by mistake, the two outcomes don't seem good.

So when it comes to obtaining evidence or impropriety on the part of the police, it's difficult because the blue wall of silence is exacerbated by poor or non-existent oversight.

1. You don't shoot the police, but it's really difficult to get compensation for the wrongful raid and damage it may have caused to your property and god forbid anyone was hurt, but for the reasons I mentioned about, it may be difficult for you to get recourse.

2. You believe in that moment your life is in danger, you do shoot at the police, you'll likely be killed and because of your actions, the likelihood of your family getting compensation for wrongful death given that a jury will probably side with the officers involved as they often do, you're ****ed there too.

I mean I'm only picking on a mistaken raid as an example, but I think it does highlight potential issues that come about from the OP's question.

Red:
Silence plus flat-out lying....

Blue:
Yep...
 

Bullseye

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?
"Never" is a strong, ambiguous word. Could there be a circumstance where shooting a LE officer would be appropriate? Yeah, possibly, but it'd be pretty damn rare.
 

gdgyva

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?

Never

Best advice is to take it on the chin now, and take him to court later

Diffusing situations is ALWAYS the best idea
 

Maccabee

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?

Only in extreme cases.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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On a no knock warrant when they break into your house with no prior warning. In that situation shooting them is justified by self defense against armed intruders.
 

Maccabee

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On a no knock warrant when they break into your house with no prior warning. In that situation shooting them is justified by self defense against armed intruders.

If you have reason to believe they are intruders and not law enforcement that is.
 

Lursa

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I know there was a brief time you were unable to participate but perhaps you'll return now?

When is it OK to shoot a cop?

Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?
According to you, never. Because you have claimed, in writing many times here, that any killing is murder.

You have also claimed that killing in self-defense, war, and abortion are murder.
 

Crossfire

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Let's get this right: It's, IMO, never "okay" to shoot a person, and anyone who thinks otherwise will likely find no common ground with me. On rare occasion, it can be necessary to shoot a person.

This is about the only sane answer someone can come up with. "Justified": depends on the situation. "Okay": If you have a modicum of respect for human life, never.
 

rickc

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when they bust in your front door.

best thing to do is go along with the cops and settle it in court later. but if they come busting in in the middle of the night at my house .....
 

Kobie

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Or a peace officer, or a federal agent like the FBI.

Inspired by a thread in the gun control forum. I am just wondering. Do you feel that civilians should never resist a cop/fed no matter what he does, and their only recourse is to file a lawsuit afterwards. Or do you feel that if the officer is doing something illegal, people can shoot back at him? Under what circumstances can a civilian use force against a cop?

I think if you're an undercover cop in a Boston gang, and there's another cop who is working for the boss of said gang who has been tasked with finding out who the mole is in the gang, even though it's him, but is secretly trying to find out who the undercover cop in the gang is, and he's coming close to exposing you, the undercover cop in the gang, then it's a legitimate shoot to kill the dirty cop who's working for the gang. Sadly, Leonardo DiCaprio got his head blown off in an elevator because he couldn't make that tough decision to off Matt Damon.
 

Lursa

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This is about the only sane answer someone can come up with. "Justified": depends on the situation. "Okay": If you have a modicum of respect for human life, never.

I've tried 'justified' a few times with the OP, with no success.

Other approaches welcome.
 

Maccabee

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when they bust in your front door.

best thing to do is go along with the cops and settle it in court later. but if they come busting in in the middle of the night at my house .....

You'd be dead or charged with murder. If, however, you thoight that they were intruders and not law enforcement and able to prove that, it's an acceptable defense.
 

JoanDavis

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Never, do as you are told. If the cop is wrong then take that up with others later, certainly others in the justice system, but perhaps journalists as well.

If the cop is wrong? Ask all the black people who have been shot dead by white cops for crimes like jaywalking or playing with toy guns in a park.
 

Maccabee

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If the cop is wrong? Ask all the black people who have been shot dead by white cops for crimes like jaywalking or playing with toy guns in a park.

99% of those cases, the person was either an actual lethal threat or acting as if he was a lethal threat and refused to follow orders. Don't act like a lethal threat and you won't be treated like one. I'm black and in contact with police on a regular basis, yet I managed to not get shot, arrested, tazed, beat up, or even pulled over.
 
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