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When does human life begin?

Re: When does opinion begin?

Stinger said:
shuamort says


Why are you against abortion?
Because I personally think it's wrong. I also personally think it's wrong to put my objections on other people.
 
Re: When does opinion begin?

shuamort said:
Because I personally think it's wrong. I also personally think it's wrong to put my objections on other people.
To simply say you are against abortion because you "think it's wrong" does not provide one with a clue to your reasoning. May we have some detail?
 
Arthur Fonzarelli said:
How can a man be convicted of a double homicide for killing his wife & unborn child but she could have killed that same unborn child without punishment or persecution...? Seems a bit inconsistent: don't you think?

Does everyone remember the Peterson story...?...it started out as his pregnant wife...then it was his wife & unborn child...then it became Lacy & Conner...amazing how the media played on the heart-strings of America...BUT, had Lacy gone to an abortion clinic that same media would have called IT a fetus/choice & would have applauded Lacy's courage. It's disgusting.


This is so true and proof that we are being lied to. I remember once a young woman was stabbed in the stomach and I believe the baby died. Now someone was being pressed with Criminal Charges. At that point I began to question: SO IT'S ONLY LIFE IF THE MOTHER CHOOSES IT TO BE? WTF? WHAT IF ONE OF MY SON'S GETS HIS WIFE PREGNANT AND SHE WANTS/SNEAKS TO HAVE AN ABORTION? WON'T MY SON BE JUST AS GUILTY (IRRESPONSIBLE?) OR WILL THIS WOMAN JUST HAVE MURDERED MY SON'S BABY?

Please excuse the cursing :3oops:
 
26 X World Champs said:
What does this mean in truth? Why would anyone write such a bunch of crap?

Abortion is murder. Simple statement. Simple fact. As stated in a post. Why would someone be accused of murder and receive punishment for same if they only killed a fetus, whose life didn't begin until it took it's first breath. Still in a country where 25yrs - life can be suspended with "Good Behavior" what is to be expected? Double standards. Do what you please as long as it makes you feel good. Oh and definately #1 on the list...God is who you want Him be/ You are God.

Can I get any clearer? Peace.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Abortion is the killing of a life, that is biological fact, not opinion. Now it may be your opinion that that is OK to do, but it does not change the basic fundimental biological fact. You can paint it any color you want, but that is a fact. It is alive, it is living, it is a life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuamort
So is ejaculation or having a period. Those are biological facts too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger

ROFL no it's not, you need to take a basic course in biology. An egg without a sperm combining it's part of the DNA molecule starting the life process will never be a life nor will a sperm swimming around ever be a life. Only when they successfilly combine their halfs of the DNA molecule they carry is a life created and from that point on that life progresses through every stage every life has ever gone through. It needs nothing else other than mere sustenance just as you need even in your particular stage of life. Everything else is there and proceeds it's natural course.



shuamort said:
You're telling me that an egg and sperm are dead? I, and the scientific community, beg to differ.

Where did I say that? I said they are not a life. They are nothing more than sperm and egg until they have a complete human compliment of genes and begin the life process. And no the scientific community does not differ. Go to the store today and buy a dozen eggs and take them home and put them under a heating pad. Let me know if you get any chickens. Let me know if there is a life in them. Better yet go to the Waffle House and order a chicken sandwich and see if you get an egg sandwich.

There are several meanings for the word "alive" which I assume is what you are getting out with your reference to "dead". Alive can mean with a life or it can simply mean in existence or operational.
 
Re: When does opinion begin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Why are you against abortion?

shuamort said:
Because I personally think it's wrong.

What do you personally think it is wrong about abortion?

I also personally think it's wrong to put my objections on other people.

So you oppose laws against things you "object" to? That's a curious position. Many laws are based on things we object to. For instance children purchasing alcohol and tobacco, do you object to that, do you oppose laws which are suppose to prevent that? How about adults engaging in sex in public, like in the middle of the town square during lunch, most people would find that objectionable, do you oppose any laws which would put that objection on them?
 
Re: When does opinion begin?

Stinger said:
What do you personally think it is wrong about abortion?

I guess that's pretty personal. :mrgreen:

Stinger said:
So you oppose laws against things you "object" to? That's a curious position. Many laws are based on things we object to. For instance children purchasing alcohol and tobacco, do you object to that, do you oppose laws which are suppose to prevent that? How about adults engaging in sex in public, like in the middle of the town square during lunch, most people would find that objectionable, do you oppose any laws which would put that objection on them?
Let's take guns for example. I'm strongly anti-gun. I detest guns. I don't think a civilized society should have them. Those are my personal feelings and objections. But I feel that my feelings and objections should not ever have a say over the rights of other people to own guns for whatever reason they deem necessary. I don't believe in limiting personal freedoms through legislation.
 
Does the potential life inside of a woman not have rights? Do those not need protecting from the views of others?
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Does the potential life inside of a woman not have rights? Do those not need protecting from the views of others?
What is inside the woman is not potential life. It is, in no uncertain terms, the same actual life that it will be until death occurs.
 
Excellent post, Shuamort! The woman always seems to be the forgotten, overlooked part of this story.

Katha Pollitt writes, in her essay "Virginity or Death!" (in 'The Nation', May 30, 2005):

"As they flex their political muscle, right-wing Christians increasingly reveal their condescending view of women as moral children who need to be kept in line sexually by fear. That's why antichoicers will never answer the call of prochoicers to join them in reducing abortions by making birth control more widely available: They want it to be *less* available. Their real interest goes way beyond protecting fetuses -- it's in keeping sex tied to reproduction to keep women in their place. ..."

Actually, what she wrote echoes what I've been suspecting for a long time now -- it's not about kids, it's never been about kids, or their welfare. It's about keeping women controllable through compulsory pregnancy.

To all those women who want to outlaw all reproductive freedom for other women, I have a couple of questions: why aren't you ladies lined up around the block outside those clinics, offering your willing wombs to accept a pregnancy transplant (the technology exists today to make it work) from a woman who doesn't want to carry to term? Since you can't force your religious beliefs down someone else's throat (however much you may want to), why not do the Christian thing instead and offer unwanted fetuses the loving shelter of your uterus? Instead of forcing the social and legal responsibility of parenthood on an unwilling woman, why not accept yourself to raise, house, clothe, feed and educate an unwanted fetus for the next 18 or more years? Put your money (and your uterus) where your mouth is. Yeah, anatomically grisly, but morally, it would make you such great witnesses for your god and your religion...
 
Ummm, from what right-wing publication did you dredge up these quotes? Nothing you "quote" comes from anything Planned Parenthood ever published.

How do I know? I got an abortion through Planned Parenthood in 1975, two years after it became legal. When I first went into their office, I got handed heaps of literature that they wanted me to review first. None of that crap you "cite" was in any of it. And, by the way, there was no same-day abortion -- they wanted you to take a few days and make sure that's what you really wanted. They also required me to justify my reasons for wanting to have an abortion. In those days, for me (young, destitute, and one boyfriend away from being homeless), my justification was simple -- I was terrified of pregnancy and if they refused me, I would have taken a butcher knife and cut it out of myself right in front of them. I would rather have died than go through childbirth. And I've never been sorry I aborted. Actually, what I experienced was not the depression right-wingers claim that women go through after an abortion -- it was the most heavenly sense of relief and freedom I've ever had in my life. I've never had regrets, and I've never looked back. If that makes me an evil person in your eyes, well, too bad. I guess you can't please everybody.

In retrospect, Planned Parenthood themselves imposed more preconditions and prerequisites before granting an abortion than are allowed today by the Supreme Court. *They* imposed a waiting period (waived in emergencies; my case was not an emergency). *They* made me justify why I needed to have an abortion -- not merely why I *wanted* one. At the time, I hated them for what they were putting me through, but they were the only source I knew of in those days when abortion was newly legal where I was reasonably sure of not getting coat-hanger butchery.

Now, from what televangelist or other right-wing screed did you say you got your information?

Thanks again for sharing.
 
geekgrrl said:
Excellent post, Shuamort! The woman always seems to be the forgotten, overlooked part of this story.

Katha Pollitt writes, in her essay "Virginity or Death!" (in 'The Nation', May 30, 2005):

"As they flex their political muscle, right-wing Christians increasingly reveal their condescending view of women as moral children who need to be kept in line sexually by fear. That's why antichoicers will never answer the call of prochoicers to join them in reducing abortions by making birth control more widely available: They want it to be *less* available. Their real interest goes way beyond protecting fetuses -- it's in keeping sex tied to reproduction to keep women in their place. ..."

Actually, what she wrote echoes what I've been suspecting for a long time now -- it's not about kids, it's never been about kids, or their welfare. It's about keeping women controllable through compulsory pregnancy.

To all those women who want to outlaw all reproductive freedom for other women, I have a couple of questions: why aren't you ladies lined up around the block outside those clinics, offering your willing wombs to accept a pregnancy transplant (the technology exists today to make it work) from a woman who doesn't want to carry to term? Since you can't force your religious beliefs down someone else's throat (however much you may want to), why not do the Christian thing instead and offer unwanted fetuses the loving shelter of your uterus? Instead of forcing the social and legal responsibility of parenthood on an unwilling woman, why not accept yourself to raise, house, clothe, feed and educate an unwanted fetus for the next 18 or more years? Put your money (and your uterus) where your mouth is. Yeah, anatomically grisly, but morally, it would make you such great witnesses for your god and your religion...
:wcm

Two complaints from Ms Pollitt. The first revolves around birth control. This is a smoke screen. Many birth control methods are widely advertised, distributed and available to anyone who wants to use them. No advertising or support is needed from the Pro-Life groups.

Second, irrespective of the fact that it is a human life that will be taken during an abortion procedure, the inconvenience of the pregnancy and the avoidance of its attendant responsibility is of greater importance to Ms Pollitt.

Ms Pollitt ignores the fact that mothers who do not wish to raise a child may, in nearly every state, bring a newborn child to any fire house or hospital, where it will be accepted, with no questions asked, and eventually placed for adoption or foster care. A woman of her intelligence and understanding would certainly know this. Why does she not include it in her writings?

Why does she introduce the crutch of a religious argument into a secular biological process?
 
Fantasea said:
What is inside the woman is not potential life. It is, in no uncertain terms, the same actual life that it will be until death occurs.

What's inside a woman during pregnancy is potential life. Unaltered, and untampered, a human life would come from her womb.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
What is inside the woman is not potential life. It is, in no uncertain terms, the same actual life that it will be until death occurs.
What's inside a woman during pregnancy is potential life. Unaltered, and untampered, a human life would come from her womb.
The source cited below contains one of the best discussions I have come across on the subject. Authored by an admitted atheist, it contains no religious distractions.

Why not give it a read?

http://www.l4l.org/library/wrngnotr.html
 
geekgrrl said:
Ummm, from what right-wing publication did you dredge up these quotes? Nothing you "quote" comes from anything Planned Parenthood ever published.

How do I know? I got an abortion through Planned Parenthood in 1975, two years after it became legal. When I first went into their office, I got handed heaps of literature that they wanted me to review first. None of that crap you "cite" was in any of it. And, by the way, there was no same-day abortion -- they wanted you to take a few days and make sure that's what you really wanted. They also required me to justify my reasons for wanting to have an abortion. In those days, for me (young, destitute, and one boyfriend away from being homeless), my justification was simple -- I was terrified of pregnancy and if they refused me, I would have taken a butcher knife and cut it out of myself right in front of them. I would rather have died than go through childbirth. And I've never been sorry I aborted. Actually, what I experienced was not the depression right-wingers claim that women go through after an abortion -- it was the most heavenly sense of relief and freedom I've ever had in my life. I've never had regrets, and I've never looked back. If that makes me an evil person in your eyes, well, too bad. I guess you can't please everybody.

In retrospect, Planned Parenthood themselves imposed more preconditions and prerequisites before granting an abortion than are allowed today by the Supreme Court. *They* imposed a waiting period (waived in emergencies; my case was not an emergency). *They* made me justify why I needed to have an abortion -- not merely why I *wanted* one. At the time, I hated them for what they were putting me through, but they were the only source I knew of in those days when abortion was newly legal where I was reasonably sure of not getting coat-hanger butchery.

Now, from what televangelist or other right-wing screed did you say you got your information?

Thanks again for sharing.
I'm not sure of the quotes to which you may be referring. However, take a look here.

Before you condemn the site, bear in mind that the author is citing a book. Perhaps you can find it in your local library. If you do, be certain that the edition was published in 1965. After that, some sort of miracle occurred and in later editions, the baby was no longer a baby. It was most likely a Roe v. Wade thing.

http://dianedew.com/conceptn.htm
 
I don't mean to be a pain and am almost sorry to type this. Still...I'm sorry.

it was the most heavenly sense of relief and freedom I've ever had in my life.

Heavenly?

Just on this word alone I debate
Heavenly: suggesting the blessed state of heaven
Heaven: a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God

How could destroying a life that God was forming inside of your womb be associated with a state of communion?

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb...

God doesn't form some people He forms all people and He starts in the womb.


In those days, for me (young, destitute, and one boyfriend away from being homeless), my justification was simple


It's so sad how many women lean on a boyfriend (not husband) even when they are cruel. I'm sure you are aware that you did not lay down alone and you shouldn't have had to walk this alone. Being in your shoes I would probably never have seen this guy again but like I said being in your shoes it would not have mattered for me and my son/daughter I would have done my job out of motherly love and if that wasn't enough Christ's love. I'm not judging and I hope you don't think I am (sorry. Peace). I just know from the same life, because I was homeless washing my son's socks in a bathroom sink and a teenager and today he's driving me crazy...but I'm glad that I had someone to lay my burdens on.


I've never had regrets, and I've never looked back. If that makes me an evil person in your eyes, well, too bad. I guess you can't please everybody.


Maybe you haven't had any regrets (I'm not trying to question you) but I do debate. You have looked back. Every time you repeat this story you're looking back to that day/decision. Every time you touch your stomach. Every time (if you have) look at your children you look back and remember. With regrets or not you do look back...

Evil in my eyes? Who the hec am I?. Please, it's not me. I've laid my burdens down. I can even say I blame a society that lied to me and family members whom I looked up to.


Don't think I see you as Evil...maybe *They* are the D-evil ones ... :smile:

It's not a fetus...he/she is a life.
 
I have nit you in your mother's womb-bible, life begins at coseption, in the womb.
 
I was born in 1973, the year of the famous decision regarding abortion. I'm curious why it was made legal? What was the motivation for making abortion legal? In other words did the argument about when does human life begin start in 1973?
 
realist said:
I was born in 1973, the year of the famous decision regarding abortion. I'm curious why it was made legal? What was the motivation for making abortion legal? In other words did the argument about when does human life begin start in 1973?
Start out here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
It's relatively an unbiased history because all sides of the argument come in and talk about it.
 
Fantasea said:
The source cited below contains one of the best discussions I have come across on the subject. Authored by an admitted atheist, it contains no religious distractions.

Why not give it a read?

http://www.l4l.org/library/wrngnotr.html

Even if abortion were constitutional, it shouldn't be. For abortion is not merely contraception or termination of pregnancy; it is prenatal infanticide. Nothing in science or philosophy supports this killing.

That's from your little link...

Where is our disagreement?
 
Of course you're sure of the quotes I'm referring to. They come from Ms. Dew's website (the link given in your URL). You know -- "Pro-Abortionists Agree: It's a Human Life Abortion Provider Admits that Abortion Kills Babies", ad nauseam. In the article featured at this link, she seems to be citing a book, "Conception, Birth and Contraception", which she claims is being published by McGraw-Hill, yet she never states the name of the author of the book. You'd think the author's name would be important enough to put on the same web page as the material being quoted.

The rest of her screed is buttressed by sections such as "Bible Studies", "The Prayer Place", "Devotional Articles", "Bible Q&A", "Humor", and other such peer-reviewed, unbiased scientific references.

Oh, and by the way, she cites the year "1969" as her starting point, not "1965" as you asserted in an earlier post. Not that any of it matters, except to other True Believers[tm].
 
GetVictd said:
Heavenly? Just on this word alone I debate. Heavenly: suggesting the blessed state of heaven. Heaven: a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God. How could destroying a life that God was forming inside of your womb be associated with a state of communion?

Because a clump of undifferentiated cells is not a "baby". No more than the same clump of undifferentiated cells is a guppy or a puppy. And all the religious crap only makes sense if you believe in it. I don't. And because no life form, human or not, has more of a right to make use of my life support systems than I do. And no life form has the right to symbiotically inhabit my body without my approval.

[snip]

GetVictd said:
It's so sad how many women lean on a boyfriend (not husband) even when they are cruel. I'm sure you are aware that you did not lay down alone and you shouldn't have had to walk this alone. Being in your shoes I would probably never have seen this guy again but like I said being in your shoes it would not have mattered for me and my son/daughter I would have done my job out of motherly love and if that wasn't enough Christ's love. I'm not judging and I hope you don't think I am (sorry. Peace). I just know from the same life, because I was homeless washing my son's socks in a bathroom sink and a teenager and today he's driving me crazy...but I'm glad that I had someone to lay my burdens on.

Yeah, you *are* judging. What do you know about my boyfriend? What makes you think he was cruel or that I went through it alone? What makes you think I have other kids now? You assume quite a bit, young lady, without having adequate information at your disposal. All you know about me is what I stated in my post, and I never implied or insinuated any of the erroneous conclusions you apparently felt compelled to draw. As for "motherly love", some women have it (and so do some men). And some women don't have any such feelings. I'm one of them. I never wanted children and therefore, I never had any. Not that it's any of your business.

GetVictd said:
Maybe you haven't had any regrets (I'm not trying to question you) but I do debate. You have looked back. Every time you repeat this story you're looking back to that day/decision. Every time you touch your stomach. Every time (if you have) look at your children you look back and remember. With regrets or not you do look back... Evil in my eyes? Who the hec am I?. Please, it's not me. I've laid my burdens down. I can even say I blame a society that lied to me and family members whom I looked up to. Don't think I see you as Evil...maybe *They* are the D-evil ones ... :smile:

Just for your future reference, I don't go around touching my stomach. But don't let that stop you from doing it if it gets you off. People who have done something wrong or something they're ashamed of have regrets. I've done nothing wrong, and I'm not ashamed of having asserted my right to control my own body, so I have no regrets.

If you're smart, you'll lose your better-than-thou attitude. If you're lucky, you'll lose your religion (go listen to REO Speedwagon for a clue). If you're not lucky, some cute guy preaching Jesus will hand you a cup of Kool-Aid one of these days and that'll be all she wrote.

GetVictd said:
It's not a fetus...he/she is a life.

Like Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
 
geekgrrl said:
Because a clump of undifferentiated cells is not a "baby". No more than the same clump of undifferentiated cells is a guppy or a puppy. And all the religious crap only makes sense if you believe in it. I don't. And because no life form, human or not, has more of a right to make use of my life support systems than I do. And no life form has the right to symbiotically inhabit my body without my approval.
:applaud - Well said...sadly too many people want to condemn you or deny your rights. They do so using the bible as their source. One thing to keep in mind, the only thing perhaps, abortion is LEGAL, will always be LEGAL, and those who have a legal abortion are not killers, they are not evil, they are not anything different than anyone else.

I'm sure the bible thumpers out there will sh*t in their pants over your and my statements, but really, who cares where they sh*t? They have a right to their opinion, it is a valuable opinion, to them. You and I have a right to our opinion, which is equally valuable. Personally I do not give a rat's ass if Jesus Freaks think that an abortion is murder, that's fine, they simply can choose not to have an abortion. They can speak out against it too, to their heart's content. What they cannot do is legally stop you or anyone from choosing to make whatever decision you elect to make.

Too often the Rabid Right use the tactic of "murder or killing" as their means to rally people to support them. It's sad that these same zealots also disapprove of dispensing birth control! They also value zygots and embryos over living and breathing human beings.
 
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