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when does a human being become a human being?

when does a human being become so?

  • at conception

    Votes: 21 53.8%
  • when its brain is sufficiently developed

    Votes: 9 23.1%
  • at viability

    Votes: 5 12.8%
  • at birth

    Votes: 4 10.3%

  • Total voters
    39
nineplus said:
... but I know too many anti-abortion supporters to believe for one moment they intend to compromise.

Of course not. No one has any intentions of compromise in politics until they are forced to. You know my views on abortion and euthanasia; do you think I'd support for a second the compromise that I just described?

The important thing is, as long as abortion in this country follows the liberal standard set by Roe vs. Wade, there are very few people in this country that would even begin to listen to my views on abortion.

The only reason that the anti-abortion crowd has any sympathy with the American public is that the current laws are too tolerant for the average American's tastes. If abortion were somewhat more restricted, of course the anti-abortionists wouldn't consider that enough-- but they wouldn't have the leverage to accomplish anything.

It's the exact same reason why NARAL and Planned Parenthood have nearly no public sympathy-- they're pushing to loosen or maintain laws that the American public already considers too loose. If the anti-abortionists won and abortions were wholly outlawed "from sea to shining sea", those groups would become incredibly influential practically over night.

nineplus said:
My personal views are that everyone hates abortion...

See, I have almost no objections to it whatsoever unless I am looking forward to raising the abortee. My only regret is that there aren't enough babies to go around; I'd rather see some sort of program that encourages childbirth than prohibiting (and penalizing) abortion.
 
vergiss said:
It becomes a human being at the first breath, when the soul enters the body. However, I chose viability because, logically, it's at the stage of development where it will be able to breathe, and survive, outside the womb.

what is the significance of “breath”, that determines an individual as a person?
 
jimmyjack said:
what is the significance of “breath”, that determines an individual as a person?

I'm talking about the soul, not personhood.

Up to half of conceived embryos end up being miscarried. Why would God waste so many souls? When the baby is born and takes its first, own breath of oxygen into its lungs, it is a part of the world for the first time - a more logical time for God to give the soul than some insignificant deadline, such as 7 months gestation or whatever (especially as that would mean some premature babies are soulless).
 
vergiss said:
I'm talking about the soul, not personhood.

Up to half of conceived embryos end up being miscarried. Why would God waste so many souls? When the baby is born and takes its first, own breath of oxygen into its lungs, it is a part of the world for the first time - a more logical time for God to give the soul than some insignificant deadline, such as 7 months gestation or whatever (especially as that would mean some premature babies are soulless).

Who are you to put God’s logic into question?

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15
 
jimmyjack said:
Who are you to put God’s logic into question?

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Who are you to speak for God?

I'm Jewish. I don't give a f**k about Jesus. :roll:
 
vergiss said:
Who are you to speak for God?

I'm Jewish. I don't give a f**k about Jesus. :roll:

And who are you?

You are the one that brought God into it.
 
jimmyjack said:
And who are you?

You are the one that brought God into it.

I asked a theological question. That's vastly different to stating I knew what God wanted, without evidence. :roll:
 
vergiss said:
I asked a theological question. That's vastly different to stating I knew what God wanted, without evidence. :roll:

No, you said the soul enter the body upon breathing…blah…blah…
 
jimmyjack said:
No, you said the soul enter the body upon breathing…blah…blah…

So does the "Old" Testament.

However, I accept it's just a matter of my personal belief. Unlike you refusing to see any side but your own, and then being blasphemous enough to say it's God's belief.
 
vergiss said:
So does the "Old" Testament.

However, I accept it's just a matter of my personal belief. Unlike you refusing to see any side but your own, and then being blasphemous enough to say it's God's belief.

It also states that God refers to us even in the womb, and it condemns the death of the unborn too.
 
jimmyjack said:
It also states that God refers to us even in the womb, and it condemns the death of the unborn too.

:confused: What imaginary Bible are you reading?
 
vergiss said:
:confused: What imaginary Bible are you reading?

From:

http://206.135.15.32/answers/aabort.Html

what does the bible say about abortion?

Of all the issues in our culture today, surely abortion is one of the most volatile. Perhaps no other issue has raised so much debate and anguish, plus time and monies spent by various interested parties to educate to public to their views on it. In the midst of such a controversial issue, many simply throw up their hands and vow to stay out of it altogether. In the name of freedom and under the guise of "it isn't my business" many choose to look the other way from this troubling issue, leaving the decision in the hand of lawmakers, doctors, and pregnant woman. Although there are many different issues concerning abortion, the following is designed to focus on what the bible says about abortion, and the consequences thereof.

Does god care?

What does god say about abortion? Do the millions of abortions that have taken place in this land bother him? Is a fetus a "real person" in the eyes of god? If so, where does that leave us? If an unborn life is truly just a mere mass of fetal tissue to god, we should want to know. If he considers the life of the woman more important than her unborn child, we should want to know. And if he does consider that unborn life a "real person", and just as important as the life of the mother that bears it, we most certainly should want to know. After all, we are all accountable to god not only for our individual lives, but also as a generation and a nation.

Thou shalt not kill

throughout the bible god has plenty to say about the taking of an innocent life. Most people in our nation, though they may not be familiar with all of the ten commandments, know that "thou shalt not kill" is listed there somewhere. The word "kill" in this instance, specifically refers to "murder"--a premeditated and deliberate act of taking someone's life. It is different than other forms of taking a life, which could be accidental, or in self-defense. God has different laws regarding different sorts of death. But he continually opposes and speaks against murder, especially murder of the innocent.

Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land and atonement cannot be made for the land on which the blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live. Numbers 35:33-34

god's judgement against the killing of an innocent life grows out of his love for humankind. The crime of murder is not only an offense against the sanctity of life, it is a pollutant upon the very land we live. God wants to spare us of the variety of ways this pollution is manifested. When the land becomes defiled with sin, people cry out "where is god?" yet they refuse to take responsibility for breaking his laws which were only given to us for our protection and good. Each sin that we commit is not merely an isolated incident, but will set off a chain reaction of other sins if not dealt with. Since the legalization of abortion for instance, child abuse has increased over 1000%. This is the exact opposite of what those who legalized abortion thought it would do since it was assumed that only children who were initially unwanted were abused.

In psalm 106 god speaks specifically against killing innocent children and babies. He says of his people: they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood.

Today we may scoff, or wonder in disbelief how anyone, especially someone who claimed to follow god, could sacrifice their child to an idol or a demon. Yet, an idol is anything that we worship before god. Today, children are sacrificed to the idols of selfishness, convenience, "freedom," and ambition--sacrificed to the very demonic powers that are behind such idols. Times really haven't changed that much. Human nature hasn't changed, nor has satan's schemes against that which god considered so precious that he died to redeem it--human life.

When does life begin?

One may argue here that they agree that it is wrong to murder, but they still don't see how a fetus necessarily qualifies as a human being. Perhaps god doesn't feel the same way about a very young fetus, as he does an older fetus, a newborn, or a 50-year-old. It may be a different issue altogether with him. Does the bible say anything specifically about unborn children?

In exodus 21:22 god gives a specific law regarding social order for the israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If god would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to him!

It has been stated if the womb had windows, there would be no abortion. As humans, we are not omnipresent and cannot know the full scope of what each human life is worth. We cannot dwell in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see it as it matures. But god can.

A scientific view

just 18 days after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain. Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.

Former surgeon general, Dr. C. Everett koop stated "we now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing." though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings. Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small?

"in the tiny, almost invisible thirty two cell blastocyst--in that one gram or so of tissue--there is a physical potential and moral destiny unparalleled in our universe. Next to it, a gram of plutonium is a triviality: plutonium cannot compose a symphony, cannot cure cancer, cannot plan our course to the stars". -bernard nathanson, m.D. And former abortionist-

a spiritual view

god said to the prophet jeremiah, before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 god knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother's womb god gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the "fetal tissue" she aborted would have been a real person named jeremiah; a mighty prophet of god and the gift of god's voice to the nations, though she would never have known.

The lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 kjv

did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15

for you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14

the above verses are only a sampling of the many biblical references we find to life inside the mother's womb. From them, it is clear that life begins when god creates it, not at some later point in time when it has grown to look like a newborn. God does not judge things according to their stage of development the way humans tend to. According to the above passages, even the tiniest embryo is the subject of his love and care. God sees each of our lives in the realm of our total existence, whether we are yet unborn, a young woman in the prime of her life, or an old man on his deathbed. He is patient with all of us, longing to bring each one of us into his maturity.
 
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What's wrong jimmyjack, too lazy or unsure to argue for yourself?

How convenient that he doesn't give the full passage for Exodus 21:22, just mentions it in passing. A nasty, fact-twisting manipulation - it's plainly obvious that the passage question actually shows that God does not see the foetus as a person. According to Exodus 21:22, "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

If God views the foetus as a person, why the paltry fine? Why shouldn't he be put to death, as he would if she were killed?

Meanwhile, God can't have too much problem with killing innocent children, given the death of the firstborns in Egypt - amongst others.

In addition, regarding Jeremiah 1:5 and others, of course God knows us before we're born! He knows everything, so I daresay he knews everyone who has ever existed and will ever exist, from the very beginning of time. When God makes us in the womb, it means he is making us - not that we're already made. Just as builders build a house, it doesn't mean the house is already there.

You have lied in claiming that the Bible condemns the death of the unborn. It doesn't even mention it.

To assume that the soul is created at the moment of conception is to deem us God - to assume that we making life, not God. Again, you are being blasphemous.
 
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vergiss said:
What's wrong jimmyjack, too lazy or unsure to argue for yourself?

How convenient that he doesn't give ...denial...denial...denial... not God. Again, you are being blasphemous.


It is called referencing.
 
jimmyjack said:
It is called referencing.

It's called not being able to debate for yourself, and being beaten by someone who can.
 
vergiss said:
It's called not being able to debate for yourself, and being beaten by someone who can.

Denial is not a trait that follows a successful argument.
 
jimmyjack said:
Denial is not a trait that follows a successful argument.

What? I successfully rebutted the ridiculous points brought up in that so-called article. Rather than ignore them and cry "denial!" while you ironically stick your head in the sand, why not at least attempt to prove me wrong? Or is that too hard for you, poor baby?
 
The terms embryo and fetus don't refer to nonhumans but to humans at particular stages of development.

Fetus is a Latin word...translated "offspring" "young one" "little child"

It is scientifically inaccurate to say that a human embryo or a fetus is not a human being simply because he's at an earlier stage of development than an infant.

That would be like saying a toddler isn't a human being because hes not an adolescent.

A fertilized egg is a newly conceived HUMAN being.

If you took a single cell of the just conceived zygote, and you put it next to a chimpanzee cell, a geneticist could easily tell and identify that it was HUMAN.

"NO INDIVIDUAL LIVING BODY CAN BECOME A PERSON UNLESS IT ALREADY IS A PERSON. NO LIVING BEING CAN BECOME ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT IT ALREADY ESSENTIALLY IS."

(Thomas Hilgers, Dennis Horan and DAvid Mall, eds., New Perspectives on Human ABortion (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America Inc./Aletheia Books, 1981), 351.


These are definitions I found in various dictionaries.....

The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.....
In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.
......a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth....an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind .....

embryo.....In humans, the prefetal product of conception from implantation through the eighth week of development.
 
Interesting....before Roe v Wade


An important scientific gathering was convened in October 1967 in Washington D.C. to decide this question. Medical professionals, biological scientists and authorities in the fields of law, ethics and the social sciences gathered together to settle the matter. This was the First International Conference on Abortion. The first major question considered was this: "When does human life begin?" When does an unborn child become a human being? At conception when the two cells unite, at birth forty weeks later, or at some point between the two?

Here was the decision of this group (composed of biochemists, professors of obstetrics and gynecology, geneticists, etc.):

"The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg, or at least the blastocyst stage [shortly after fertilization, when twinning might occur] and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not a human life. The changes occurring between implantation, a six-weeks embryo, a six months fetus, a one week-old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation."—First International Conference on Abortion, Washington B.C., October 1967.


Here is some of the information that these scientists used in arriving at their decision:
"Because of modern science, we know a great deal about fertilization and the early development of the child within the womb.
When the sperm and egg unite, a new human life begins. It did not exist before.
The sperm carried the genetic code of the father, and has no life or continuing function beyond that of one goal: to fertilize the egg.
The ovum contains the genetic code of the mother and part of her body. It is not a new life, and has no other function than to be fertilized.
If the fertilization (uniting of the two cells) does not take place, both cells will die.
The cells are from human beings, but are not human beings.
But when the 23 chromosomes from the sperm unite with the 23 chromosomes from the ovum, a new being comes into existence. It is a unique human being, for none like it ever existed before, and none quite like it will ever exist again. It is a real person, just as real as you and I. Genetically, it is totally different from the body of the father or the mother. Organically, it is independent, programmed from within, growing in an orderly manner, moving toward further maturity."


Here is a statement from the Journal of the California State Medical Association:

"The reverence of each and every human has been a keystone of western medicine, and is the ethic which has caused physicians to try to preserve, protect, repair, prolong, and enhance every human life.

"Since the old ethic has not yet been fully displaced, it has been necessary to separate the idea of abortion from the idea of killing which continues to be socially abhorrent. The result has been a curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception, and is continuous, whether intra— or extra—uterine [inside or outside the uterus], until death. The very considerable semantic gymnastics which are required to rationalize abortion as anything but taking a human life would be ludicrous if they were not often put forth under socially impeccable auspices. It is suggested that this schizophrenic sort of subterfuge is necessary because, while a new ethic is being accepted, the old one has not yet been rejected. "—Journal of the California State Medical Association, September, 1970.
 
vergiss said:
What? I successfully rebutted the ridiculous points brought up in that so-called article. Rather than ignore them and cry "denial!" while you ironically stick your head in the sand, why not at least attempt to prove me wrong? Or is that too hard for you, poor baby?

Lack of knowledge of your own religious text and further denial is the mark of defeat.
 
jimmyjack said:
Who are you to put God’s logic into question?

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs." And he laid his hands on them and went on his way. Matthew 19:13-15

Um, and, how exactly is this to be interpreted as referring to fetuses in utero? It could just as easily be interpreted as referring to already born children.
 
afr0byte said:
Um, and, how exactly is this to be interpreted as referring to fetuses in utero? It could just as easily be interpreted as referring to already born children.


It is not, when talking about referring to foetuses I was talking about another text.

Please follow the debate.
 
doughgirl said:
An important scientific gathering was convened in October 1967 in Washington D.C. to decide this question. Medical professionals, biological scientists and authorities in the fields of law, ethics and the social sciences gathered together to settle the matter. This was the First International Conference on Abortion. The first major question considered was this: "When does human life begin?" When does an unborn child become a human being? At conception when the two cells unite, at birth forty weeks later, or at some point between the two?

Here was the decision of this group (composed of biochemists, professors of obstetrics and gynecology, geneticists, etc.):

good post doughgirl.....the only think I would suggest is to include links. :mrgreen:
 
Jimmyjack, none of those verses specifically mention abortion, so your whole long post is one long opinion post. However, it wouldn't really matter if the Bible said anything bad about it, since it's just a Bible.
 
afr0byte said:
Jimmyjack, none of those verses specifically mention abortion, so your whole long post is one long opinion post. However, it wouldn't really matter if the Bible said anything bad about it, since it's just a Bible.

Yes it does.
 
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