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When does a fetus become a baby?

Stace

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I see this discussed on many of the threads, but I wanted to make a thread specifically about the subject...there's a poll right now that's similar, but not quite what I had in mind.

I'm wondering when you consider a human fetus becomes a human baby. I have a few different viewpoints on this.

*If I were the one pregnant, and wanted the child, I'd probably refer to it as a baby right away.

*But looking from the perspective of a woman that is about to have an abortion, it would never be anything more than a fetus.

*Scientifically/medically, I believe it "officially" becomes a baby at 22/23 weeks, when it would be possible to deliver the baby with a chance of the baby sustaining life on its own. If I remember correctly, any time before that, and the fetus will most certainly die, even with the aid of respirators.

I'd just like to get a few more opinions on this.
 

steen

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Stace said:
*Scientifically/medically, I believe it "officially" becomes a baby at 22/23 weeks, when it would be possible to deliver the baby with a chance of the baby sustaining life on its own. If I remember correctly, any time before that, and the fetus will most certainly die, even with the aid of respirators.
That would actually be 32 weeks when the lungs work by themselves.

Scientifically/Medically, it becomes a baby at birth. "Baby" is a developmental stage defined as starting at birth.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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My dictionary says that a "baby" is a "very young child". Doesn't say a word about with or without amniotic fluid.
 

steen

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"Child," like "baby" refers to the developmental stages after birth. "Baby" generally is an early subset of "child."
 

Stace

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Well....I wasn't asking about all of the technical terms, I was asking for personal opinions, but....ok :lol:
 

steen

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Well, we can think or believe all sorts of things. We can believe that the Earth is flat. We can believe that smoking is good for our lungs. REALITY may intrude on these fantasies and misperceptions. When someone seeks to misuse terminology outside its definition for emotional appeal and hyperbole, they should expect to be challenged on that outright deception.
 

Some_Guy

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I wouldn't say BABY, but... It becomes a human being as soon as the sperm joins with the egg and the fetus begins to grow the vital organs needed to sustain life.
 

Caine

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Hmm...
When does a Fetus become a baby.........

I got it!
When its Born and is no longer a developing "Fetus"

Hows that?
 

Caine

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mickiesamso said:
i think a fetus is a baby at conception.
Yet... at conception its not a fetus, its a Zygote.
 

Caine

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Some_Guy said:
I wouldn't say BABY, but... It becomes a human being as soon as the sperm joins with the egg and the fetus begins to grow the vital organs needed to sustain life.

Yes, because a ball of rapidly dividing cells is a human.

Main Entry: human
Function: noun
: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) : MAN; broadly : any living or extinct member of the family (Hominidae) to which the primate belongs

Balls of cells don't have legs.
 

steen

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Some_Guy said:
I wouldn't say BABY,
Good. I am glad some people abstain from the deceptive, revisionist linguistics.
but... It becomes a human being as soon as the sperm joins with the egg
Well, "being" implies individuality and autonomy. The zygote does not fit this.
and the fetus begins to grow the vital organs needed to sustain life.
there is no fetus until the 9th week.
 

Ethereal

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I think a better question would be: when does the "zygote" or "fetus" become a person? As I see it a zygote or a fetus is just as much a person as a "baby" or a "toddler". Zygote, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, ect. are all terms refering to the development of a creature rather than its designation.

So, when pro-choicers say a "fetus" becomes a "baby" atfer it's born, they are technically correct since the word baby does not designate personhood, rather a stage in one's development as a person. But are they correct in saying that a "zygote" or a "fetus" is not a person? Well, that's debatable.
 

steen

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Ethereal said:
I think a better question would be: when does the "zygote" or "fetus" become a person?
Well, "Person" is a legal term, so for that we need to look in the legal codes.
As I see it a zygote or a fetus is just as much a person as a "baby" or a "toddler".
The law says that you are wrong.
Zygote, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, ect. are all terms refering to the development of a creature rather than its designation.
These are all biological, developmental stages. This is not determinants of legal status per se.
So, when pro-choicers say a "fetus" becomes a "baby" atfer it's born, they are technically correct since the word baby does not designate personhood, rather a stage in one's development as a person.
Glad we agree.
But are they correct in saying that a "zygote" or a "fetus" is not a person? Well, that's debatable.
Not according to the law, which has clarified that the legal term "fetus" does not apply to the unborn.

So unless you want to extend the definition of person into something extralegal, you don't have a case. And if you do so, then prolife loses its argument regarding personhood and rights, and it becomes a meaningless term to prolife.
 
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Stace said:
I see this discussed on many of the threads, but I wanted to make a thread specifically about the subject...there's a poll right now that's similar, but not quite what I had in mind.

I'm wondering when you consider a human fetus becomes a human baby. I have a few different viewpoints on this.

*If I were the one pregnant, and wanted the child, I'd probably refer to it as a baby right away.

*But looking from the perspective of a woman that is about to have an abortion, it would never be anything more than a fetus.

Stace Fetus is the latin word for Baby.

*Scientifically/medically, I believe it "officially" becomes a baby at 22/23 weeks, when it would be possible to deliver the baby with a chance of the baby sustaining life on its own. If I remember correctly, any time before that, and the fetus will most certainly die, even with the aid of respirators.

Babies as young as 16 weeks have survived per Good Morning America Sometime in Nov 05


I'd just like to get a few more opinions on this.
My Wife and I had 5 premature babies (born between 19-22 weeks )All 5 lived for only a short time after birth without a respirator. They were born and they did live betwee a half hour and a hour. So if you are not going to recognized them as Babies or fetus (I prefer the english) What are they? OK Fetus, zygote, embryo are all stages of development for a person. Every person was or will become a Zygoat, Embryo, Fetus or Baby, infant, Todler, Child, Teenager, Young adult, Middle aged, Senior citizen.
 
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Stace

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
My Wife and I had 5 premature babies (born between 19-22 weeks )All 5 lived for only a short time after birth without a respirator. They were born and they did live betwee a half hour and a hour. So if you are not going to recognized them as Babies or fetus (I prefer the english) What are they?
That's up to you. Your opinion on it is just that....your opinion. You decide how you view it.
 

Ethereal

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Before I commense whipping your butt in this debate I would like to finish our last one, steen. I'm still awaiting your rebuttal or concession. Unless you require a more in depth explaination of how to conduct a proper debate?
 

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Steen does not debate. He merely tosses meaningless insults out there.

Now. Are you pro-abortionists claiming that someone is not human until their organs are fully developed? If yes, you should abort all kids less than 20 since their brains are not fully developed. If not, then where exactly is the borderline between acceptable to murder and not acceptable to murder? A few feet, between the inside and outsides of the mother?
Now. It does not matter what stage of development it is in. All that matters is that it is a growing human. Done and done. You are murdering a fellow human being no matter when you do it, and you might as well shoot a 15-year-old in the face, since it is not murder because he is still developing his brain.
 

Stace

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Some_Guy said:
Steen does not debate. He merely tosses meaningless insults out there.

Now. Are you pro-abortionists claiming that someone is not human until their organs are fully developed? If yes, you should abort all kids less than 20 since their brains are not fully developed. If not, then where exactly is the borderline between acceptable to murder and not acceptable to murder? A few feet, between the inside and outsides of the mother?
Now. It does not matter what stage of development it is in. All that matters is that it is a growing human. Done and done. You are murdering a fellow human being no matter when you do it, and you might as well shoot a 15-year-old in the face, since it is not murder because he is still developing his brain.
This thread is not about pro-CHOICE vs. pro-life. It is simply intending to get a perspective on when others view that little combination of sperm and egg as a fetus/baby/whatever. It's not about what the textbooks and lawbooks say - I'm interested in personal opinion and feelings here.
 

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Some_Guy said:
Steen does not debate. He merely tosses meaningless insults out there.

Now. Are you pro-abortionists claiming that someone is not human until their organs are fully developed? If yes, you should abort all kids less than 20 since their brains are not fully developed. If not, then where exactly is the borderline between acceptable to murder and not acceptable to murder? A few feet, between the inside and outsides of the mother?
Now. It does not matter what stage of development it is in. All that matters is that it is a growing human. Done and done. You are murdering a fellow human being no matter when you do it, and you might as well shoot a 15-year-old in the face, since it is not murder because he is still developing his brain.
Being a Hypocrite already...... there is no such thing as pro-abortion..... its called pro-choice... pro-abortion is a way to turn a stance into an insult.... which is what you were claiming steen does.

And, you are failing to understand steen's post in the first place...
Steen is referring to the legal aspect of the argument... not this "interpretation" of when something can be considered a member of the human race and when its not... because finding a definate ground on that is like finding a definite interpretation of the Torah (bible for you christ people). It ain't gonna happen.

So the legal aspect is the one that the debate on abortion is really about.

As far as when a fetus becomes a baby... a fetus becomes a baby when it is born, Baby is usually synonomous with Infant.... your not an infant if your still in the womb.
 

steen

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Stace Fetus is the latin word for Baby.
That claim is false as has been shown before.
Babies as young as 16 weeks have survived per Good Morning America Sometime in Nov 05
And they are wrong. The absolute earliest ever recorded preemie to survive at one year was born at 19 weeks, 6 days gestation (21 weeks, 6 days pregnancy). That is the absolutely earliest survival ever recorded in medical history.
My Wife and I had 5 premature babies (born between 19-22 weeks )All 5 lived for only a short time after birth without a respirator. They were born and they did live betwee a half hour and a hour.
And hence, they were not viable.
So if you are not going to recognized them as Babies or fetus (I prefer the english) What are they?
After birth, they are babies. before birth, they are fetuses. Technically, they are miscarriages (though that refers to the process itself).
OK Fetus, zygote, embryo are all stages of development for a person.
]Incorrect. they are stages of development of what may become a person after birth.
Every person was or will become a Zygoat, Embryo, Fetus or Baby, infant, Todler, Child, Teenager, Young adult, Middle aged, Senior citizen.
Utter and silly nonsense.
 

steen

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Ethereal said:
Before I commense whipping your butt in this debate I would like to finish our last one, steen. I'm still awaiting your rebuttal or concession. Unless you require a more in depth explaination of how to conduct a proper debate?
Huh? What is this lame avoidance?
 

steen

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Some_Guy said:
Steen does not debate. He merely tosses meaningless insults out there.
Your meaningless insult is duly noted.
Now. Are you pro-abortionists
Where are these fictitious beings? None have been seen here, so either you are not really with it, or you are deliberately lying. Which is it?
claiming that someone is not human until their organs are fully developed?
Hmm, who have claimed that there is no species designation like that?
... If not, then where exactly is the borderline between acceptable to murder and not acceptable to murder?
Irrelevant, as nobody here are talking about murder. that must be some fiction cooked up in your emotionally overheated mind.
Now. It does not matter what stage of development it is in. All that matters is that it is a growing human. Done and done.
really? Are you claiming that merely being "human" gives one a right to life, including that of using others' bodily resources?

Wow, you sure are in disagreement with other prolifers. they have said that there is no such right. Perhaps you want to set them straight?
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=6031

You are murdering a fellow human being no matter when you do it,
Your claim is false. You are spewing misrepresentations here.
and you might as well shoot a 15-year-old in the face,
Nope.
since it is not murder because he is still developing his brain.
Your emotionally laden histrionics really has nothing to do with reality!
 

Ethereal

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Ethereal Gets Last Word In Parental Notification

Huh? What is this lame avoidance?
You heard here first folks! Steen concedes parental notification debate to Ethereal due to lame avoidance and inability to mount a logical rebuttal! How long before he concedes entirely? Stay tuned to find out!

Need proof? Decide for yourself at this link...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=6122&page=8
 
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