• Please keep all posts on the Rittenhouse verdict here: Rittenhouse Verdict. Note the moderator warnings in the thread. The thread will be heavily moderated with a zero tolerance policy for any baiting, flaming, trolling or other rule breaks. Stick to the topic and not the other posters. Thank you.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

When cops who kill leave their body cameras turned off

dirtpoorchris

King of Videos
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
11,655
Reaction score
3,610
Location
WA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
When Cops Who Kill Leave Their Body Cameras Turned Off

Body camera footage of O’Neal’s shooting would make the legality of the killing easier to determine. The Supreme Court ruled in Tennessee v. Garner (1985) that a police officer cannot use lethal force on a fleeing suspect unless “the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.”

O’Neal’s mother has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit, alleging that her son was killed
“without legal justification.”

'The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has proposed one such policy. Under its body camera policy, if an officer fails to activate his camera or interferes with the footage the following policies kick in:
1. Direct disciplinary action against the individual officer.
2. The adoption of rebuttable evidentiary presumptions in favor of criminal defendants who claim exculpatory evidence was not captured or was destroyed.
3. The adoption of rebuttable evidentiary presumptions on behalf of civil plaintiffs suing the government, police department and/or officers for damages based on police misconduct. The presumptions should be rebuttable by other, contrary evidence or by proof of exigent circumstances that made compliance impossible.'

Cops that end up with missing body cam footage (accident or not) should have HUGE penalties to their testimony and credence. I agree with this harshness.
 

Moot

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,421
Reaction score
15,331
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has proposed one such policy. Under its body camera policy, if an officer fails to activate his camera or interferes with the footage the following policies kick in:
1. Direct disciplinary action against the individual officer.
2. The adoption of rebuttable evidentiary presumptions in favor of criminal defendants who claim exculpatory evidence was not captured or was destroyed.
3. The adoption of rebuttable evidentiary presumptions on behalf of civil plaintiffs suing the government, police department and/or officers for damages based on police misconduct. The presumptions should be rebuttable by other, contrary evidence or by proof of exigent circumstances that made compliance impossible.'


I agree with that.
 

Lutherf

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
41,578
Reaction score
47,978
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Maybe what we should do is send camera crews out with cops. Maybe cops shouldn't be allowed to engage anyone without at least three angles covered by video. Hell, maybe cops should just assume that anyone who call in a complaint against someone else is full of **** and they just shouldn't respond at all.:roll:
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,779
Reaction score
17,941
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Maybe what we should do is send camera crews out with cops. Maybe cops shouldn't be allowed to engage anyone without at least three angles covered by video. Hell, maybe cops should just assume that anyone who call in a complaint against someone else is full of **** and they just shouldn't respond at all.:roll:

And we can televise the results...

We can call the show COPS.
 

EMNofSeattle

No Shame!
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
29,233
Reaction score
8,874
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative

Lutherf

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
41,578
Reaction score
47,978
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
What is the body-cam malfunctions? Screw the cop anyway?

Exactly. The camera gets ripped off the cops chest in a fight, the perp goes free and the cop gets hooked up. Hooray for America!
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Maybe what we should do is send camera crews out with cops. Maybe cops shouldn't be allowed to engage anyone without at least three angles covered by video. Hell, maybe cops should just assume that anyone who call in a complaint against someone else is full of **** and they just shouldn't respond at all.:roll:

OR.... the cops could make sure their body and dash cameras are on. How about we just use common sense?
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
I do not, cameras are not the end all be all, and it is perfectly reasonable to accept testimony of a police officer over the speculation of the suspects mother in court.

The argument is not about accepting cops always... just when they turn their body and dash cams off and then kill a suspect.
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
What is the body-cam malfunctions? Screw the cop anyway?

...and how often does that happen? Probably not much at all or we would be hearing about it.
 

Moot

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,421
Reaction score
15,331
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What is the body-cam malfunctions? Screw the cop anyway?

Exactly. The camera gets ripped off the cops chest in a fight, the perp goes free and the cop gets hooked up. Hooray for America!

If the body-cam shows a scuffle before hand...then it might be a reasonable defense that it wasn't the cops fault that the body camera fell off...or malfunctioned. If it was the later that could easily be proven by examining the body-camera itself. If was the former then the body-cam would still show what led up to the altercation.
 

Lutherf

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
41,578
Reaction score
47,978
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
OR.... the cops could make sure their body and dash cameras are on. How about we just use common sense?

Common sense would dictate that we use the evidence available.

Punishing cops because their camera wasn't working is absurd. We already expect cops to be mind readers, mental heath counselors, social welfare professionals, family counselors, etc. It's unrealistic and, frankly, damaging to society. In many parts of this country teachers are expected to baby sit kids when they're in school and cops are expected to baby sit them when they're not in school. In fact, the only people NOT expected to take care of the kids are their parents. To hell with that.

What we've seen so far from all these cop cameras is that sometimes they provide some additional perspective and sometimes they don't. They're not a bad tool but they also are no panacea and mandating their use or worse, punishing cops for not using them, is unreasonable.
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Exactly. The camera gets ripped off the cops chest in a fight, the perp goes free and the cop gets hooked up. Hooray for America!

Slow the Drama Train down for a second there cookie...
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Common sense would dictate that we use the evidence available.

Punishing cops because their camera wasn't working is absurd. We already expect cops to be mind readers, mental heath counselors, social welfare professionals, family counselors, etc. It's unrealistic and, frankly, damaging to society. In many parts of this country teachers are expected to baby sit kids when they're in school and cops are expected to baby sit them when they're not in school. In fact, the only people NOT expected to take care of the kids are their parents. To hell with that.

What we've seen so far from all these cop cameras is that sometimes they provide some additional perspective and sometimes they don't. They're not a bad tool but they also are no panacea and mandating their use or worse, punishing cops for not using them, is unreasonable.

It is completely reasonable to mandate that people with the authority to imprison or kill members of society wear a little teeny camera that can better explain what happened and why...

It is also prudent to punish cops whose camera was not turned on during the course of their shift or or especially when magically a violent encounter happens and, "ooops" it was off for some reason.
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
58,680
Reaction score
45,532
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Maybe what we should do is send camera crews out with cops. Maybe cops shouldn't be allowed to engage anyone without at least three angles covered by video. Hell, maybe cops should just assume that anyone who call in a complaint against someone else is full of **** and they just shouldn't respond at all.:roll:
Or maybe instead of all this hyperbolic nonsense, they should have their video cams turned on?

And streaming, preferably?
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Or maybe instead of all this hyperbolic nonsense, they should have their video cams turned on?

And streaming, preferably?

Yeah, what is the problem with that? IT benefits everybody. They have shown that body cams reduce violent encounters between police and suspect as well...
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
76,110
Reaction score
60,309
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
so why do they need to be able to turn the cameras off?
 

TheGoverness

Little Miss Sunshine
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
35,063
Reaction score
37,701
Location
Houston Area, TX
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Yeah, what is the problem with that? IT benefits everybody. They have shown that body cams reduce violent encounters between police and suspect as well...

And body cams protect LEO's from false claims of assault or police brutality.
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
58,680
Reaction score
45,532
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Yeah, what is the problem with that? IT benefits everybody. They have shown that body cams reduce violent encounters between police and suspect as well...
Here's how I see it:

Whenever complicated arguments get made against simple solutions, I suspect ulterior motive. And I'm usually right.
 

Lutherf

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
41,578
Reaction score
47,978
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
If the body-cam shows a scuffle before hand...then it might be a reasonable defense that it wasn't the cops fault that the body camera fell off...or malfunctioned. If it was the later that could easily be proven by examining the body-camera itself. If was the former then the body-cam would still show what led up to the altercation.

Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. Every scenario is different and especially when the action is happening up close the camera only shows a VERY limited perspective. Like I said, it's not a bad tool but mandating their use and especially punishing cops for not using them is unreasonable.
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
And body cams protect LEO's from false claims of assault.

Exactly... and prove that they were not using improper force... the list is long actually. Body cams BENEFIT EVERYBODY.
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,457
Reaction score
21,265
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Here's how I see it:

Whenever complicated arguments get made against simple solutions, I suspect ulterior motive. And I'm usually right.

Yep. There is no valid reason against body and dash cams... or for filming cops yourself. Only dirty cops benefit from no cameras.
 

JANFU

Not quite there yet, but getting close
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
37,635
Reaction score
13,402
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Maybe what we should do is send camera crews out with cops. Maybe cops shouldn't be allowed to engage anyone without at least three angles covered by video. Hell, maybe cops should just assume that anyone who call in a complaint against someone else is full of **** and they just shouldn't respond at all.:roll:
Interfering with Police mandated policy and that is your answer. Shameful
 

Lutherf

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
41,578
Reaction score
47,978
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Or maybe instead of all this hyperbolic nonsense, they should have their video cams turned on?

And streaming, preferably?


Why? So that we can have a "watch officer Smith eat lunch and take a leak" website?

Why not mandate that every convicted criminal, misdemeanor on up, wear and camera and stream their daily actions?
 
Top Bottom