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What's the house worth?

phattonez

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Imagine two men who ended up on an island after shipwrecks. The first man got there first and owns all the land on the island, including two houses. Both he and the other man can live independently. However, the first man chooses not to work and charges a rent equivalent to his cost of living (the amount of food he needs).

Is this well and good, or is the man who does all the work being exploited?
 
Imagine two men who ended up on an island after shipwrecks. The first man got there first and owns all the land on the island, including two houses. Both he and the other man can live independently. However, the first man chooses not to work and charges a rent equivalent to his cost of living (the amount of food he needs).

Is this well and good, or is the man who does all the work being exploited?
On an Island? I assume a 'deserted' island? One with two houses? Thats a helluva deserted island...I'm curious about its back story.

Ridiculousness of your hypothesis aside, in that case I suspect in a survival mode, your two castaways will begin to learn the valued lesson of either teamwork or conquest.
 
I actually really like this metaphor. It would be preposterous to divy up the island's resources based on who shipwrecked there first. After all, you're both trapped on the island and you both need to survive. If the first man lets the second man live in squalor and become thirsty and hungry, eventually the second man will get the idea to bash the first man's head in with a coconut and take it all for himself. It worked like this for millions of years. Society was built to ensure the second man's situation never becomes bad enough for him to have to resort to that.

Back to reality, I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that we're all shipwrecked onto this island we call life, and all of the land and resources are already divied up among everyone else by the time we get there. There's a computer somewhere with 1's and 0's in it that say some people never have to work a day in their life, while everyone else has to work their hands to the bone serving them for peanuts. It's an arbitrarily created construct that can be changed.
 
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On an Island? I assume a 'deserted' island? One with two houses? Thats a helluva deserted island...I'm curious about its back story.

Ridiculousness of your hypothesis aside, in that case I suspect in a survival mode, your two castaways will begin to learn the valued lesson of either teamwork or conquest.
First guy can live without the other if he chooses to work. He just chooses to live off of the other guy's work. Is that wrong?
 
I actually really like this metaphor. It would be preposterous to divy up the island's resources based on who shipwrecked there first. After all, you're both trapped on the island and you both need to survive. If the first man lets the second man live in squalor and become thirsty and hungry, eventually the second man will get the idea to bash the first man's head in with a coconut and take it all for himself. It worked like this for millions of years. Society was built to ensure the second man's situation never becomes bad enough for him to have to resort to that.

Back to reality, I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that we're all shipwrecked onto this island we call life, and all of the land and resources are already divied up among everyone else by the time we get there. There's a computer somewhere with 1's and 0's in it that say some people never have to work a day in their life, while everyone else has to work their hands to the bone serving them for peanuts. It's an arbitrarily created construct that can be changed.
This^^^^. One of the first lessons I was taught in anthropology ( the study of man ) is that if there are 2 camps, and one camp has all of the food, resources, water, shelter, etc., ( Camp A), and that camp refuses to share those resources, sooner or later Camp B WILL come after those resources. No camp is going sit idly by, and watch their children starve to death without going down with a fight to get at some of those resources.
 
First guy can live without the other if he chooses to work. He just chooses to live off of the other guy's work. Is that wrong?
Again...you assume that in a 1 on 1 case there wuld be some form of 'ownership'. Your scenario is pretty absurd, but yeah...Im thinking sonce you put to houses on a deserted island, the 2nd person is probably going to take or attempt to take one of the homes by force.
 
Imagine two men who ended up on an island after shipwrecks. The first man got there first and owns all the land on the island, including two houses. Both he and the other man can live independently. However, the first man chooses not to work and charges a rent equivalent to his cost of living (the amount of food he needs).

Is this well and good, or is the man who does all the work being exploited?
There would be no legally enforceable laws therefore it would likely result in the stronger person exploiting the weaker person or one of the two being eliminated by the other if they couldn't work out a way to coexist peacefully.
 
Again...you assume that in a 1 on 1 case there wuld be some form of 'ownership'. Your scenario is pretty absurd, but yeah...Im thinking sonce you put to houses on a deserted island, the 2nd person is probably going to take or attempt to take one of the homes by force.
And would you condemn him for it?
 
There would be no legally enforceable laws therefore it would likely result in the stronger person exploiting the weaker person or one of the two being eliminated by the other if they couldn't work out a way to coexist peacefully.
Deal with the scenario. Is the first person doing anything wrong?
 
Imagine two men who ended up on an island after shipwrecks. The first man got there first and owns all the land on the island, including two houses. Both he and the other man can live independently. However, the first man chooses not to work and charges a rent equivalent to his cost of living (the amount of food he needs).

Is this well and good, or is the man who does all the work being exploited?
Ah, you point out the major flaw with property rights and acquired, unearned wealth. One reason I like steep inheritance taxes is to avoid land passing down from generation to generation, thereby freezing out newcomers and blacks who were denied access to said land for hundreds of years.

IMO, there is nothing more disgusting then rich white guy who inherited 500 acres of prime development real estate from daddy pointing at the failure of minorities for not "making it" like he thinks he did.
 
Imagine two men who ended up on an island after shipwrecks. The first man got there first and owns all the land on the island, including two houses. Both he and the other man can live independently. However, the first man chooses not to work and charges a rent equivalent to his cost of living (the amount of food he needs).

Is this well and good, or is the man who does all the work being exploited?

Good post. Explains America about perfect.
 
A nice thought experiment about ownership in general, and land ownership specifically. Which boils down to private property, versus communal ownership. How DO we determine who owns the land? If I'm on a boat, out at sea, and I find an island...who owns it? It's not a part of any country. Do I now own, because I was the first to set foot on it? Is that a proper measure of ownership? He who plants the first flag? Does that mean the US owns the moon? And what if that island IS a part of some country? What gives/gave that country the right to "claim" the island in the first place?

When plots on the moon start to be given away, who gives it away? Or will the moon be owned by anyone who is capable of reaching it?

On the flip side, if we decide we don't like the idea of a nation just being able to claim land by virtue of being capable of reaching it, or by virtue of force...then what? Is land to be evenly distributed among those who are born on it? Who arrive to it? That's a great way to ensure land is not productive.
 
there is nothing more disgusting then rich white guy who inherited 500 acres from daddy pointing at the failure of minorities for not "making" it like he thinks he did.

This is how it is where I live. All these "hard working folks" who literally inherited their opportunity and most their wealth decrying the folks they have no understanding of.
 
Deal with the scenario. Is the first person doing anything wrong?
I will take a position.

In this particular scenario, yes, the first guy is wrong, and is likely imminent of having his head bashed in by the second guy. Humans, even as children, have an intrinsic understanding of a desire for fairness.
 
I will take a position.

In this particular scenario, yes, the first guy is wrong, and is likely imminent of having his head bashed in by the second guy. Humans, even as children, have an intrinsic understanding of a desire for fairness.

So, what you are saying is that the greater good is best for all individuals.

:eek:
 
....Is land to be evenly distributed among those who are born on it? Who arrive to it? That's a great way to ensure land is not productive.
You are correct on that. We see what happened in Africa (I think it was Zimbabwe) when productive land was "given back" to the people who had no idea how to run modern farms. It was a disaster. However, we see something else in the US.

For the most part, land owners here no longer farm their own land. Instead, they lease it to professional farmers, mostly people with millions of dollars worth of equipment who produce and harvest the crops. Those folks, in return, sell that crop to companies like Cargill, the real winner in the system. But, at least that method of filling the supply chain is efficient because everyone involved knows what the hell they are doing.

Johnny who inherited his fortune (the land) is clueless about farming, but he can live nicely off the rent received from the experienced farmer working his land. The farmer is clueless on how to bring 5000 acres of soybean and corn to market, so he sells to the food processing giants in bulk. The system works. But, it does freeze a lot of people out from owning land...serfdom in a way.
 
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Imagine two men who ended up on an island after shipwrecks. The first man got there first and owns all the land on the island, including two houses. Both he and the other man can live independently. However, the first man chooses not to work and charges a rent equivalent to his cost of living (the amount of food he needs).

Is this well and good, or is the man who does all the work being exploited?
The entire point of having a society is to mitigate these kinds of conflicts without violence so that everyone can hopefully have mutual benefits. In this case, if one person owns the land, there is no longer an implicit social contract that makes things like property rights exist as there is no longer mutual benefit. This means that the law of the jungle applies and might makes right and its very possible that the situation will proceed accordingly.

In terms of whether it is right or wrong depends on whether the social contract matters or not, in this care it does not and therefore there is no right or wrong outside of naked force. It is not a situation where one can ask the question of "what is right" and get a meaningful answer.
 
So, what you are saying is that the greater good is best for all individuals.

:eek:
You are correct on that. We see what happened in Africa (I think it was Zimbabwe) when productive land was "given back" to the people who had no idea how to run modern farms. It was a disaster. However, we see something else in the US.

For the most part, land owners here no longer farm their own land. Instead, they lease it to professional farmers, mostly people with millions of dollars worth of equipment who produce and harvest the crops. Those folks, in return, sell that crop to companies like Cargill, the real winner in the system. But, at least that method of filling the supply chain is efficient because everyone involved knows what they hell they are doing. Johnny who inherited his fortune (the land) is clueless about farming, but he can live nicely off the rent received from the experienced farmer working his land. The system works. But, it does freeze a lot of people out from owning land...serfdom in a way.
Yep. And I have NO idea what the solution is. Higher tax rates on the wealthy, which in turn will cause them to avoid those taxes by hiring more accountants and lawyers? Hiding income? Moving wealth? Not entirely sure that would work. Do nothing? That DEFINATELY isn't working.

You can't FORCE people to be decent. To understand even distribution of load.
 
I will take a position.

In this particular scenario, yes, the first guy is wrong, and is likely imminent of having his head bashed in by the second guy. Humans, even as children, have an intrinsic understanding of a desire for fairness.
And I agree. My point is about the just price. It could be reached by either making both men owners, or simply by the first man charging a price for rent in line with his costs. Unfortunately out society thinks it's okay to charge however much you can get away with.
 
The entire point of having a society is to mitigate these kinds of conflicts without violence so that everyone can hopefully have mutual benefits. In this case, if one person owns the land, there is no longer an implicit social contract that makes things like property rights exist as there is no longer mutual benefit. This means that the law of the jungle applies and might makes right and its very possible that the situation will proceed accordingly.

In terms of whether it is right or wrong depends on whether the social contract matters or not, in this care it does not and therefore there is no right or wrong outside of naked force. It is not a situation where one can ask the question of "what is right" and get a meaningful answer.
It's simple. There's no justice in the first man not working while able while the second man does all the work just to survive. Just price is real.
 
Yep. And I have NO idea what the solution is. Higher tax rates on the wealthy, which in turn will cause them to avoid those taxes by hiring more accountants and lawyers? Hiding income? Moving wealth? Not entirely sure that would work. Do nothing? That DEFINATELY isn't working.

You can't FORCE people to be decent. To understand even distribution of load.
We sure can force people to be decent. It's why we put criminals in prison. And men who exploit fellow men? They too should be treated like the criminals they are.
 
There's no justice in the first man not working while able while the second man does all the work

My dear friend, you clearly are not familiar with teh valor of capitalism. ;)
 
It's simple. There's no justice in the first man not working while able while the second man does all the work just to survive. Just price is real.
And now, just to play devils advocate, I'll apply the conservative voice...

Is the second guy going to share in the risk? As a rent payer? What happens when one of the houses burns down? Does the first guy "owe" guy number 2 anything? Is the first guy repsonsible for paying for/making repairs, etc?

Is not risk management a burden? As a renter, the second guy takes on zero risk, and zero responsibility.
 
It's simple. There's no justice in the first man not working while able while the second man does all the work just to survive. Just price is real.
One of the problems I find when people are asking what is right is that they assume unconstrained system. The thinking often goes "if X is right, then it always right no matter what and if Y is wrong, it is always wrong" This is because people tend to assume morality is based on reason or logic.

Instead, I would propose we take a page from psychology and see maslow's heirarchy of needs.

319px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs2.svg.png


Then we combine it with two insights.

1. Moral foundations theory by Jonathan Heidt (the insights I am using here are just basic evolutionary psychology though)
2. John Hume's insight that morality is based on sentiment.

Combine them and you get something like this. Morality is a set of psychological drives aimed at social behavior as it applies to survival against either the wild or rival human groups (haidt). Morality is often based on perspective and sentiment (hume) and a human cannot consistently take their personal needs outside of their consideration for moral perspectives (again, hume). If you look at Maslow's chart, one's moral perspective is going to greatly depend on where one is in that chart. So if the late island arriver has their physiological needs threatened then their moral reasoning is going to start from that situation and what they do in order to survive against a rival group (in this case the groups are 1 vs 1, but there are still opposing purposes, thus creating the rivalry and triggering group psychology and associated instincts) is going to seem just. The same is true for the early arriver since they are protecting their place on the pyramid (probably rung 2 in this case since the other ones depend on being a part of a tribe or bigger group) and their need to preserve their land is going to seem right from their perspective.

So you get two people in a rivalry who both think what they are doing is just. There can be no social contract in that situation unless they find a reason to negotiate, but that would be hard to do since I suspect this is a very divisive topic as both see the situation as closely linked to their survival (which then triggers the whole psychological drive thing per haidt). However, if they are able to do that, then a new social contract is forged and hopefully they stick to it and things are good.

So, you cannot stuff a logical "x is right, y is wrong" in a situation like that, at least in any way I can think of, unless there is some sort of objective and morally perfect outside observer because personal and societal judgements cannot apply due to a complete lack of shared context (society is broken in this situation and its two people who think they are right and justified). This leads to the law of the jungle unless some outside force intervenes and applies their view of justice.

The other thing to think about is this is why love (agape type) and empathy are so important in life. It potentially bypasses all of this.
 
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We sure can force people to be decent. It's why we put criminals in prison. And men who exploit fellow men? They too should be treated like the criminals they are.
But then, the question...define exploitation.

Is having someone work for you exploitation? If the value of the labor they execute exceeds the value of their payment from you, then, that is text book exploitation. But that's how a for profit system works, and I somehow don't think you are trying to end for profit businesses. So then we go down the slippery slope of, how MUCH exploitation is OK. Which boils down to being an opinion.
 
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