what's the fix?? (1 Viewer)

[nineplus]

for the purposes of this thread, let's agree public education has its generalized failures...........I realize some may disagree, but this thread isn't the place to argue about it...........nor is this a place to battle over why public education has failed so many students

instead, let's all brainstorm tangible ways to fix the many problems............because regardless of our pro/con stand on public education, surely we can all see at least a problem or two. focus on those things and come up with a legitimate plan to improve those areas.........including ways to pay for them, because this too is a constant issue in terms of public education

so rather than continuing to bash the system, let's set about fixing things

 

[WW3Politician]

Ok: One of the biggest problems, when I went to public school, was the lumping of students into "lowest common denominator" classes. Regardless of how gifted a student was in a certain study area, public schools put that student in with others who are not so talented, even in so called honors classses.
This slows the whole class down, and doesn't allow for independent learning or study.
A possible solution to this problem would be a guided study class similar to those found in liberal arts colleges. A student would choose his/her curriculum, follow it independently (with correspondance or internet/book courses and teacher oversight) and then test every X days.

 

[vexati0n]

I'm pro-public education. But of course you're right, the public education system in the US has a lot of problems, some of them fundamental problems.

Firstly, our public schools have become such a cesspool of crime and other bad behavior that's contrary to the education children are supposed to be getting. A lot of this is due to the fact that parents today are afraid to discipline their children, and the school system is forbidden from imposing any real rules. Kids have the run of the place. We either need parents who realize what the value of discipline is, or school systems that can enforce their rules by corporal punishment, preferrably both.

Another failing of public school systems, being that they're ultimately run by politicians, is politics. We allow too many sound educational programs to be scrapped because somebody might not get the votes they want. We compromise the standards of education by reducing real Science to 'competing theory' and exalting religion to 'scientifically viable' by pandering to uneducated voters who insist that their superstitions be taught alongside tested facts as equals. We shortchange ourselves by teaching abstinence and ignoring sex education because parents are uncomfortable with the genetically mandated tendencies of their children.

We fund our schools with property taxes, which invariably leads to a class-based educational system, with "rich" neighborhoods' schools outperforming the schools in "poor" neighborhoods and communities. Since public education is automatically socialist, we ought to at least impose mandatorily socialist funding, and even if it's funded by property taxes, every school in a state ought to get the same level of funding per student.

And those are the minor problems. We also have to worry about the fact that our schools in large part exist to produce complacent working-class citizens without much ambition in the area of civil service. And of course, the ever-present idol of consumerism is slowly swallowing our schools with brand-name snack machines and Pizza Huts.

 

[FallingPianos]

for the purposes of this thread, let's agree public education has its generalized failures...........I realize some may disagree, but this thread isn't the place to argue about it...........nor is this a place to battle over why public education has failed so many students

instead, let's all brainstorm tangible ways to fix the many problems............because regardless of our pro/con stand on public education, surely we can all see at least a problem or two. focus on those things and come up with a legitimate plan to improve those areas.........including ways to pay for them, because this too is a constant issue in terms of public education

so rather than continuing to bash the system, let's set about fixing things

If I were to design a school/curriculum, here's how I'd do it.

it would be devided into 3 types of schooling as is now, but the division lines would be placed differently: k-3, 4-8, and 9-12.

K-3 would be half days, and very exclusivly focused on the 3 Rs. If the kids dont get those things down, their going to have trouble later. reading and spelling would be taught phonetically. 3rd graders would be expected to be able to read childrens novels, spell everyday words correctly, have good handwritting, be able to write in complete sentances, know the 8 parts of speech, have their addition and multiplication tables memorised, and be able to add and subtract multiple digit numbers.

4-8 would be full days and would include history and science. 8th graders would be expected to be able to: have an advanced understanding of grammer and be able to diagram sentances, use puntuation marks correctly, write an organized 300 word paper - not necessarily an essay with a thesis, read at a moderate adult level, have basic algebra and geometry, advanced understanding of anatomy and health applications, newtons laws, the periodic table, types of chemical bonds, balancing chemical reactions, introduction to biology, solid american history.

9-12. covers the same types of things as 4-8, but at a much more advanced level. biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, and writing should all be at the introductory college level by graduation. for math that means having taken calculus. solid understanding of history of the western world, and basic understanding of world history.

basically, the curriculum states with a lot of memorization and drill for the first few years to get the basics very solid, and as it goes on it becomes more and more analytical. there's no point in trying to teach a kid how to multiply numbers when their still adding on their fingers. the math corriculum is traditional... old fashioned even. absolutly nothing wrong with using visuals and whatnot to help demonstrate a concept, but after the kid understands it conceptually, there is simply no substitute for practicing it over and over again.

the english curriculum is basically that a kid needs to be able to us the language correctly before trying to express anything complicated with it, and their brain needs to be sufficiently developed to be able to process abstract thought before attempting to write essays. its very much based on organization, starting on the sentance level, and ending on the essay level.

this curriculum and others could be added to public schools through charter and magnet schools.

 

[nineplus]

If I were to design a school/curriculum, here's how I'd do it.

it would be devided into 3 types of schooling as is now, but the division lines would be placed differently: k-3, 4-8, and 9-12.

I've had very similar ideas...........I'd get rid of K altogether and extend the half day concept through 5th or 6th grades............maybe having a half day, then full day, then half day type concept going for that last year before kids would flip to full days

I'd also focus solely on language arts and math for the first 4 grades.........and I do mean solely. a half day would be plenty to cover those two subjects in depth, at each child's grade level, every day.

if you think about how many specialists we have in public schools and how many extraneous subjects are currently taught, it's easy to see where we could regroup and form small classrooms in those younger grades w/o hiring anyone new..........all extra stuff would be up to the parents. if you really think about it history, science, PE, art, music etc are best learned as self interest subjects in those early years anyway............the child is interested in art, sign him up for an art class. into the idea of being a chef, take a cooking class with him. has too much energy at the end of the day, add said kiddo to a swim or soccer team...........you get the idea

now the downfall of this would be a vast discrepancy of exposures at the early middle school level (whenever they flip to that whole day, multiple subjects being taught thing) but from everything I've read over the years kids easily play *catch up* if they have a strong foundation of basic skills.............meaning the kiddo who plays 5 instruments, has run marathons, done civil war reenactments and served on 2 political campaigns would only be ahead until the less exposed child plays catch up.............either via his/her own interests or via information being taught in the expanding class selection

the goals of public education have become very muddy. giving everyone the basic skills has dissolved into giving everyone everything.........and it's not working because loads of budding adults have to be remediated at the college level (this is if they even feel themselves capable of college) so simplifying the goal seems to be a huge first step in actually accomplishing a goal.

in virginia state, as a homeschooler, I'm only compelled to teach my kids language arts and math...........and compelled to show proof of progress in these two subjects yearly. because of this, many of us hsers have talked about the concept of public schools benefitting from being held to the same standards...........instead of being held to a vast array of complicated standards which dont apply to this child or that child or on the second tuesday of every other month etc lol it isn't that hsers in VA state aren't teaching extraneous subjets to their children...........quite the contrary..........it's that we *focus* heavily on those FIRST and the rest comes after. our kids are enrolled in lots of classes, clubs, sporting events, bands and such............I teach high school government and middle school geography for our hsing co-op and my children take music, dog agility, biology, chemistry, history, art classes and much more from other parents in the co-op. we dont ignore other subjects, but we are legally responsible to show our children excelling at language arts and math.............so that's our priority.

it doesnt seem as though public schools are allowed to have those two core subjects as their priority any longer and I'm wondering if this isnt part of the hs edge we see showing up in test scores, college admissions, competitions etc. the small group advantage of hsing is obvious too, but with all the employees running around the average elementary school each day I honestly believe classroom size could be much, much smaller w/o hiring a soul...........the focus just needs to be shifted to language arts and math and shifted away from everything else until those things are rock solid imho

 

[Stace]

I've had very similar ideas...........I'd get rid of K altogether and extend the half day concept through 5th or 6th grades............maybe having a half day, then full day, then half day type concept going for that last year before kids would flip to full days

I like the whole half day/full day concept...in theory. However, one thing you do have to consider is where would the kids go after school on a half day schedule? Not all families have a stay at home parent, nor a parent that can only work a half day schedule, and for the kids that go to daycare after school, costs for that would rise significantly due to the extra hours (the centers would have to offset the cost of having additional teachers for those longer hours....I used to work at a daycare, and the teachers in charge of the after school group didn't show up until about an hour before the kids arrived)...and many families are struggling to pay for daycare as it is, so I think you'd get a lot of parental resistance on that front.

I also would NOT get rid of kindergarten. I'd seriously revamp it in most systems, though. I attended kindergarten for a full day, and sure, we played games and did lots of fun stuff, but I was also learning to read, write, and do simple math problems. Kindergarten, under that sort of structure, is wonderful, because not only is your child learning the basics that they'll need to take to first grade, they're also learning fundamental social skills, which is especially beneficial for children that had not previously attended any sort of daycare or preschool, and are therefore lacking at least somewhat in the social skills necessary for interacting with a large group of other children. They'd also be learning the disciplinary skills necessary for the first grade environment - paying attention to their teacher, learning to raise their hand to speak, etc.

 

[TheNextEra]

A big problem I have seen with the school system is a couple of things (not necessarily in the order of importance):

#1. Inadequate teacher being allowed to maintain their jobs through tenurship.

#2. A wall of beaurocracy within the school boards and administration

#3. Parents not invovled enough in the children(s) lives and expecting the school system to raise them.

#4. Teachers not being allowed to properly punish students that misbehave.

#5. Parents not allowed to be parent.

#6. Children not wanting to learn. You can make a child go to school, but you can't make them think.

#7. Other (Obviously there are other problems as well)

It is not just ONE thing that is the problem with the public school system, but a MUTLITUDE of problems that have been allowed to grow because they have been ignored.

The first start to this IMO, is making parents be parents. I understand that we live in a society that the parents (in many cases) have to work. However, that doesn't mean that you just drop your kid off at school and expect the school system to teach them how to behave or to be parents to the children.

The school is there to be a place where children can learn and also interact with other kids, however, it is not there to be a parent. That is the job of the ............drumroll please..................PARENTS.

 

[Captain America]

1. Hold parents accountable.
2. Hold educators accountable.
3 Hold kids accountable.
4. Bring back Corporal Punishment
3. School uniforms..........



Listen to me.....:roll: Endorsing just about everything I hated when I was in school.

I must be getting old.

 

[Stace]

1. Hold parents accountable.
2. Hold educators accountable.
3 Hold kids accountable.
4. Bring back Corporal Punishment
3. School uniforms..........



Listen to me.....:roll: Endorsing just about everything I hated when I was in school.

I must be getting old.

I say no way to corporal punishment. There's no way I'm going to let a teacher strike my child if I'm not going to be giving them spankings at home. Spankings will be reserved only for the most severe cases of disobedience, there are much more effective ways of teaching a child what to do/not to do, and I'm not having my kids growing up scared to do anything at all for fear of getting spanked/beat like I did.

 

[talloulou]

I'd do the exact opposite of what many of you suggested. I completely disagree with half days and less schooling. Compared to other nations our children are downright uneducated and if anything they need more time in school vs less.

I would make preschool mandatory. Kindergarten would be a full day everywhere. Instead of being off all summer long there would be 3-4 1-2 week vacations spread out evenly over the year. Do you realize how much time is wasted reteaching crap that was forgotten over the long summer break?

Also a big factor is parental responsibility. If it's obvious that a kid can't read because there aren't any books at home and noone is reading to the child on a daily basis that should be viewed as neglect! The public library makes it so that NOONE has an excuse to not read to their child. All children should be surrounded by books at a very young age.

I'd bring back competition in the schools. Competition is great and kids can handle it and they're better off for it in my opinion.

I'd also have the kids start memorizing stuff again. There is nothing wrong with having to memorize stuff.

I'd track the classes so that if a school has 3 first grade classes the kids would be divided up according to ability. That way the kids who take longer to learn something aren't slowing down the progress of kids that pick up on stuff quickly.

All kids would wear uniforms. I like the idea of uniforms as it starts everyone out on equal footing right off the bat.

I'd increase the salary paid to teachers so that we had a bigger more intelligent pool of teachers to choose from. I'd also make it easier to fire teachers that suck.

 

[taxedout]

Also a big factor is parental responsibility

Probably the largest factor.
Unfortunately, parental involvement cannot be cultivated.
Our Jerry Springer culture is here to stay.