Whats so wrong with being a POOF!

[The legend]

I can't understand all this prejudice against people of a homosexual persuasion.
after all they are just normal people like us and they never asked to be born gay. its just something that they were born with and have to live with and we should accept that we are all different.
Also if it wasnt for the queers then demographic problems of world overpopulation would occur a lot more quickly than would otherwise be the case. I'm absolutely sick of this POOF-ophobia!

 

[Montalban]

I can't understand all this prejudice against people of a homosexual persuasion.
after all they are just normal people like us and they never asked to be born gay. its just something that they were born with and have to live with and we should accept that we are all different.
Also if it wasnt for the queers then demographic problems of world overpopulation would occur a lot more quickly than would otherwise be the case. I'm absolutely sick of this POOF-ophobia!

So you're saying 'they' can't help being gay; they're compelled to be gay?

 

[shuamort]

So you're saying 'they' can't help being gay; they're compelled to be gay?

As much as you can't help being straight and you're compelled to being striaght.

 

[ianrufford]

So you're saying 'they' can't help being gay; they're compelled to be gay?

Yes.Sorry but I may bore you out.As you see,everyone has hormones and as our hormones are balanced,naturally girls like guys and guys like girls. However,gays are born with their hormones imbalanced.This caused them to like people of the same sex.Is this their fault?No.Do you blame people who are born handicap?I hope not.They did not want to like that,but they have no choice.Try to be in their shoes.Do you know how people who are homosexual feels?Not being able to like people and not being able to tell that they like people of the same sex.Feel their pain.They are living in fear. Scared to let anyone know,afraid that their friends and even family will reject them.People in the society rejects them because they are afraid to know someone different and they might be the same.Have sympathy on them,if not have nothing against them.Life is so short.Love everyone.Bear no hatred.

 

[GarzaUK]

I think homosexuals do not choose to be homosexual, I believe your either gay or your not.

For example - animals. There is cases where there are homosexual animals, my city zoo actually has a lesbian chimp. Surely animals do not have the intelligence to make a choice in sexual orientation, their animal instinct would to be straight the way "nature" intented.

I heard a biology lecturer say once "Biology loves variety, society does not."

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

The chimp doesn't like bananas?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

My problem with this issue is that there are so many different studies that prove so many different things. About half the studies done on homosexuals show that homosexuality is genetic. On the other hand, about half the studies done on homoesexuals say that it is environment. So whose right? Or are both sides right? But here's an interesting question. What if I told you that there is a gene that leads one to be an alcoholic. Or what if I told you there is a gene that causes one to have pedophilic desires. Is it alright for one, based on the fact that it is a genetic issue, to be an alcoholic or a pedophile?

 

[Pacridge]

As much as you can't help being straight and you're compelled to being striaght.

Yes but there’s a whole bunch of studies and facts put forth by conservative groups that can “prove” it’s a lifestyle. A dangerous lifestyle as well. One that will be the undoing of all our societies if we don’t crush its acceptance. There are also “creation scientists” who can prove the earth is only 6000 or so years old and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time as man. I believe the earth was once flat as well.

 

[ShamMol]

My problem with this issue is that there are so many different studies that prove so many different things. About half the studies done on homosexuals show that homosexuality is genetic. On the other hand, about half the studies done on homoesexuals say that it is environment. So whose right? Or are both sides right? But here's an interesting question. What if I told you that there is a gene that leads one to be an alcoholic. Or what if I told you there is a gene that causes one to have pedophilic desires. Is it alright for one, based on the fact that it is a genetic issue, to be an alcoholic or a pedophile?

To answer your last question-no. That is what therapy is for and that is what conservatives will argue especially with being gay (even though therapy "cures" homosexuality permenantly what...2% of the time, and those people likely did chose to be gay for the lifestyle-those who are gay go back). That is the problem-it is always the person's fault with conservatives. They don't ever stop to consider that it may be genetics. We should accept homosexuals and preech to them a way to practice their lives safely to prevent sexually transmitted diseases because homosexuals are the most likely to have them.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

even though therapy "cures" homosexuality permenantly what...2% of the time, and those people likely did chose to be gay for the lifestyle-those who are gay go back

Show me a study that would show this to be the case.

That is the problem-it is always the person's fault with conservatives. They don't ever stop to consider that it may be genetics.

First of all, I'm not conservative. Secondly, you are completely wrong to assume that I personally have not stopped to consider the genetics. I have looked at genetics research regarding homosexual behaviour as well as alcoholism and pedophilia as well as depression and ADHD. I understand that some people have genetic leanings towards actions. But that doesn't make the fact that they commit these actions correct. You agree with the first half of my statement because it is logical, but then immediately dismiss it because it doesn't support what you are arguing. The fact is that genetics more than likely do play a role in most cases of homosexuality. BUT, that does not mean that these people do not have a choice in the way they act, or the situations they put themselves in. If you have genetic leanings towards alcoholism, and you do not want to be an alcoholic, then you stay away from the bar. If you have sexual attraction towards your same sex, and you feel that you do not have control over your actions led by those desires, then stay out of romantic situations with those of the same sex. Now, if you want to discuss whether having homosexual sex is wrong or sinful, then that is and can be further discussed elsewhere. The question here was is it genetic or is it not, and you have added nothing.

We should accept homosexuals and preech to them a way to practice their lives safely to prevent sexually transmitted diseases because homosexuals are the most likely to have them.

Here's my question to you: how am I, personally, being unaccepting to homosexuals? How am I personally acting towards homosexuals that you would suggest should change. In fact, how are Christians treating homosexuals, as a group, that you are not happy with? What actions are Christianity commiting against homosexuals that you think should end?
Furhtermore, who is it you're proposing we "preach to" and under what authority? Why is this your concern? Are you under the impression that homosexuals are unaware of contraceptives? Why teach homosexuals how to have safe sex when abstinance is 100 percent effective?

 

[GarzaUK]

Show me a study that would show this to be the case.

If you have sexual attraction towards your same sex, and you feel that you do not have control over your actions led by those desires, then stay out of romantic situations with those of the same sex.

What if someone said to do you can never have romantic situations with a woman. You'd say screw you.
Romantic relationships as well as sexual relationships is very much in our human instinct, and it's very much the way we function in society. So homosexuals have to live a life of lonliness just because you don't like it. Get a life! Seriously get a life!

Here's my question to you: how am I, personally, being unaccepting to homosexuals? How am I personally acting towards homosexuals that you would suggest should change. In fact, how are Christians treating homosexuals, as a group, that you are not happy with? What actions are Christianity commiting against homosexuals that you think should end?
Furhtermore, who is it you're proposing we "preach to" and under what authority? Why is this your concern? Are you under the impression that homosexuals are unaware of contraceptives? Why teach homosexuals how to have safe sex when abstinance is 100 percent effective?

Abstinance doesn't work with straight relationships (highest teenage pregnancy rate in the western world), it won't work with gay relationships. While The Netherlands (probably the most liberal country in the world) has the lowest pregnancy rate, with the combined efforts of government and parents.
The government gives them a detailed sex education in school, so they will be less curious about it.
The parents talk about sex to their children in a modern matter-of-fact manner. And that if they want condoms, birth control pills etc, they should feel no shame in coming to them for those items.
The Netherlands is a place where prostitution and cannabis are legal!

 

[Montalban]

As much as you can't help being straight and you're compelled to being striaght.

You're assuming that my leanings are straight.

It still also assumes that no one has any control over their own sexuality.

To make one of your own 'arguments'...obviously when you're 'horny', you just have to have sex... regardless of your leanings.

 

[Montalban]

Yes.Sorry but I may bore you out.As you see,everyone has hormones and as our hormones are balanced,naturally girls like guys and guys like girls. However,gays are born with their hormones imbalanced.This caused them to like people of the same sex.Is this their fault?No.Do you blame people who are born handicap?I hope not.They did not want to like that,but they have no choice.Try to be in their shoes.Do you know how people who are homosexual feels?Not being able to like people and not being able to tell that they like people of the same sex.Feel their pain.They are living in fear. Scared to let anyone know,afraid that their friends and even family will reject them.People in the society rejects them because they are afraid to know someone different and they might be the same.Have sympathy on them,if not have nothing against them.Life is so short.Love everyone.Bear no hatred.

So you're now comparing homosexuality to a handicap! Who's side are you on? :mrgreen:

 

[Montalban]

I think homosexuals do not choose to be homosexual, I believe your either gay or your not.

For example - animals. There is cases where there are homosexual animals, my city zoo actually has a lesbian chimp. Surely animals do not have the intelligence to make a choice in sexual orientation, their animal instinct would to be straight the way "nature" intented.

I heard a biology lecturer say once "Biology loves variety, society does not."

It is quite possible that you are born gay, does this make it 'right'? It seems to be that you and others here believe that people are compelled not only to be homosexual, but to comit homosexual acts.

Next thing I see is murderers being able to introduce this into a defence, that they were born muderers, they carry this handicap, and that they're compelled to be this.

Funny that I actually thought that we could transcend being 'animals'. I'll bring the pellets next time. Sit! Sit! Okay, good boy!

 

[teacher]

My only problem with the non-breeding gender is when they hit on me and I've told them no twice and they say how do you know if you've never tried it. Of course the ultimate comeback is to ask, "did you choose to be gay or were you born that way?" they say born of course. I say so see I can no longer get aroused for you than you can for a girl. As this discourse makes too much sense most of them pout and beg most unbecomingly and then you can't help but feel sorry for these poor helpless to their desires men. Though I can't help but find it amusing to use their own"we're born this way" (which I believe, how else could you get it up for someone with a beard) excuse against them. My question is how through the years does the percentage of gays in the population stay the same when they don't procreate. Seems evolution would thin them out. The moral of the story is if your thin, clean cut, athletic, straight and white stay away from Ft. Lauderdale.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

What if someone said to do you can never have romantic situations with a woman. You'd say screw you.
Romantic relationships as well as sexual relationships is very much in our human instinct, and it's very much the way we function in society. So homosexuals have to live a life of lonliness just because you don't like it. Get a life! Seriously get a life!

Get a life? Like, I'll totally start working on that one, okay? So, like, but I was thinking, maybe like, well what if, I like had leanancies towards being like a pedaphile, I was wondering like, since it's in my genes, is it wrong for me to want to be in love with little children? I mean, if like, someone came along and said you couldn't be in love with someone of your age, you'd be like, screw you man, totally, but like so why can't I just be in love with a 12 year old woman? Huh? Like for sure...

Abstinance doesn't work with straight relationships (highest teenage pregnancy rate in the western world), it won't work with gay relationships. While The Netherlands (probably the most liberal country in the world) has the lowest pregnancy rate, with the combined efforts of government and parents.
The government gives them a detailed sex education in school, so they will be less curious about it.
The parents talk about sex to their children in a modern matter-of-fact manner. And that if they want condoms, birth control pills etc, they should feel no shame in coming to them for those items.
The Netherlands is a place where prostitution and cannabis are legal!

'Kay, I'll make you the same wager I made with 26x World Champs, you go have sex with someone a thousand times, in the next year using a condom everytime. I will not have sex at all. Which of us is more likely to have a pregnancy or an STD? Why is our pregnancy rate so high? Not because we send a message of abstinance, but because we send mixed messages. Half of the US is saying that sex is okay under very very limited circumstances, in fact, as long as you want it, and have a condom, it's okay to have sex, however, another half of America believes that there are reasons that make sex worth waiting for (i.e. you seem to suggest that pregnancy and/or STD's are the only negative effect of sex, you forget emotional anxiety and relationshipal stress, not to mention, if you happen to be a Christian, acting against the will of God). So it's absolutely no wonder the mixed messages are resulting in the raise of teen pregnancy. But I ask you this, Go back to America in 1985, a time when arguably abstinance was the only method taught. Compare that teen pregnancy and STD rate among US citizens to what it is now. Is it higher then than it is now?

 

[ianrufford]

So you're now comparing homosexuality to a handicap! Who's side are you on? :mrgreen:

In a way yes I am comparing homosexuality to a handicap,as there are some similarity between both.First its the fact that both are formed genetically and those who are "victims" have no control over this.Who's side am I on?Do you mean if I am standing on the side of the homosexuality or handicap,or if I agree that we should except those who are homosexual.Anyway,I agree that we should except those who are homosexual.That does not mean that homosexuality is correct,because of homosexuality there are diseases like AIDS.What I am just trying to say is that we should accept those who are homosexual and try our best to counsel them and through medication,hope that they will recover.

 

[shuamort]

You're assuming that my leanings are straight.

Considering your vitriol and your statements regarding it. It's either you're straight or self-hating.

It still also assumes that no one has any control over their own sexuality.

You mean you could flip one way or another at any time? Unless you're bisexually comfortable then most likely not.

To make one of your own 'arguments'...obviously when you're 'horny', you just have to have sex... regardless of your leanings.

Please don't ever put your ridiculous statements under my moniker.

 

[shuamort]

.What I am just trying to say is that we should accept those who are homosexual and try our best to counsel them and through medication,hope that they will recover.

Recover? :roll: Some of us are happy just as we are. It's the religious nuts, the ignorant freaks, and the bigoted few that aren't happy.

 

[shuamort]

It is quite possible that you are born gay, does this make it 'right'? It seems to be that you and others here believe that people are compelled not only to be homosexual, but to comit homosexual acts.

Next thing I see is murderers being able to introduce this into a defence, that they were born muderers, they carry this handicap, and that they're compelled to be this.

Funny that I actually thought that we could transcend being 'animals'. I'll bring the pellets next time. Sit! Sit! Okay, good boy!

Can't discuss one issue at a time, eh? Your slippery slope argument is ridiculous, unfounded, and quite a bit sad.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Recover? :roll: Some of us are happy just as we are. It's the religious nuts, the ignorant freaks, and the bigoted few that aren't happy.

Shuamort, what you are not recognizing is that this is all coming from a great deal of people who are indeed Christian. As easy as it sounds, it is not, in fact, as easy at it would seem to grasp the fact that even though we believe some things to be truly right or truly wrong, that some people choose to do them and find nothing wrong with them. As for myself, I am not telling you what you can and cannot do with your body. BUT, if you ask me what is right or wrong, then I have no problem telling you. The difference is deciding who ought to be the judge in the matter, and I personally will allow God to be my judge, and I will allow Him to be your judge. If you honestly feel that being homosexual is not a sin, then why do you concern yourself with what I believe as so long as I continue to allow you to practice in a manner you like, within equal reason (in other words, your rights ought to be the same as everyone else's). I will not punish you, or abuse you, or attack you (verbally or otherwise), but I will not have a problem telling you point blank that according to what I understand to be the Word, I think it is rather clear what the will of God is regarding sex and marriage, and same-sex relationships do not fall under that. But, again I return to my argument of genetic tendancy of alcoholism and pedophilia, and neither of those are appropriate. And I feel that homosexuality lies among them as something that can be genetically effected, but no matter how prone to something you may be, that does not mean that you do not have the ability to choose not to adhere to it. You make homosexuality sound unaviodable, and I simply do not see any proof that would lead me to believe that is the case. I believe that we have enough evidence to argue that environment does have a great deal of influence on every person, so to presume that it has nothing to do with sexual preference is not logical. The problem with this particular forum is that it is debating two seperate issues as though they were one.
Issue 1: Is homosexuality completely genetic, completely environmental, a mixture of the two, or something else entirely?
Issue 2: Is it "right" to act upon homosexual desires, and under what pretenses are we judging rightness?
Two issues as seperate as these only becoming cloudy when joined together.

 

[GarzaUK]

Get a life? Like, I'll totally start working on that one, okay? So, like, but I was thinking, maybe like, well what if, I like had leanancies towards being like a pedaphile, I was wondering like, since it's in my genes, is it wrong for me to want to be in love with little children? I mean, if like, someone came along and said you couldn't be in love with someone of your age, you'd be like, screw you man, totally, but like so why can't I just be in love with a 12 year old woman? Huh? Like for sure...

I said get a life because if I understand you correctly... you don't want homosexuals to practice human urges (the urges that we all have), die along without a partner, to not experience what we straight people can enjoy - love, because YOU think it is wrong.
Why is homosexuality wrong in your eyes? Religion? If it is fair enough, it is your religious belief. But religious rules should not be imposed on ALL the citizens as they have the right to choose whether not or which religion to follow. I don't know it's called equality for all people.

How can you compare homosexuality to pedaphilia? What? How? Where? Who?
Two consenting ADULTS ingages in a homosexual activity is the same as an adult conducting sexual activity on a non-consenting JUVILNILE?
Where in hell did you make that connection?

'Kay, I'll make you the same wager I made with 26x World Champs, you go have sex with someone a thousand times, in the next year using a condom everytime. I will not have sex at all. Which of us is more likely to have a pregnancy or an STD? Why is our pregnancy rate so high? Not because we send a message of abstinance, but because we send mixed messages. Half of the US is saying that sex is okay under very very limited circumstances, in fact, as long as you want it, and have a condom, it's okay to have sex, however, another half of America believes that there are reasons that make sex worth waiting for (i.e. you seem to suggest that pregnancy and/or STD's are the only negative effect of sex, you forget emotional anxiety and relationshipal stress, not to mention, if you happen to be a Christian, acting against the will of God). So it's absolutely no wonder the mixed messages are resulting in the raise of teen pregnancy. But I ask you this, Go back to America in 1985, a time when arguably abstinance was the only method taught. Compare that teen pregnancy and STD rate among US citizens to what it is now. Is it higher then than it is now?

Look at the Netherlands, the most liberal AND one of the most religious countries in Europe. They are doing the exact opposite of us, and it is working. It is not a mixture of messages, it is lack of knowledge both from the parents and school's part. They need to be more open to the sexual hormones of the teenager.
Absitance is a choice, it being rammed down a teenagers throat, then like most teenagers they rebel, they have sex without knowledge of the reprucussions.
The rise of teenage precnancies from the absitance 80's is actually linked to the media, market and capitalism to make children grow up to fast. They have bra's for 8 year olds now, mini skirts etc that the 80's just didn't have.

 

[Binary_Digit]

On the other hand, about half the studies done on homoesexuals say that it is environment.

Do you have a link to support that? I'd like to consider the credibility of those "studies".

What if I told you that there is a gene that leads one to be an alcoholic.

And that too, please? I've researched that one myself, and my findings don't quite agree with yours.

Why teach homosexuals how to have safe sex when abstinance is 100 percent effective?

Because abstinance is 100 percent unrealistic.

Next thing I see is murderers being able to introduce this into a defence, that they were born muderers, they carry this handicap, and that they're compelled to be this.

I think you have a very active imagination. Besides the fact it would have to be proven, or at least well supported, that murderers are born with their tendancies, it's not reasonable to compare homosexuality with murder because only one involves an unwilling victim.

So, like, but I was thinking, maybe like, well what if, I like had leanancies towards being like a pedaphile, I was wondering like, since it's in my genes, is it wrong for me to want to be in love with little children?

Same answer I gave Montalban. Pedaphilia involves an unwilling victim, homosexuality does not.

In fact, how are Christians treating homosexuals, as a group, that you are not happy with? What actions are Christianity commiting against homosexuals that you think should end?

Probably the very discrimination you just admitted they are suffering under: "what you are not recognizing is that this is all coming from a great deal of people who are indeed Christian."

To review:

- Homosexuality is not comparable to pedophilia or murder, even if both are linked to a genetic mutation, because homosexuality does not involve an unwilling victim.
- Most of the religious right has openly and consistently held homosexuality against homosexuals.
- If God is to be their judge, then why are they still treated as 2nd class citizens by much of society, including our own President?

 

[ShamMol]

Show me a study that would show this to be the case.

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/aversion_therapy.html
I can't find that study anymore, I looked in my history and it was too far back. And let me clarify, the treatment that they speak of doesn't even cure, it is just teaching them to avoid it.

First of all, I'm not conservative. Secondly, you are completely wrong to assume that I personally have not stopped to consider the genetics. I have looked at genetics research regarding homosexual behaviour as well as alcoholism and pedophilia as well as depression and ADHD. I understand that some people have genetic leanings towards actions. But that doesn't make the fact that they commit these actions correct. You agree with the first half of my statement because it is logical, but then immediately dismiss it because it doesn't support what you are arguing. The fact is that genetics more than likely do play a role in most cases of homosexuality. BUT, that does not mean that these people do not have a choice in the way they act, or the situations they put themselves in. If you have genetic leanings towards alcoholism, and you do not want to be an alcoholic, then you stay away from the bar. If you have sexual attraction towards your same sex, and you feel that you do not have control over your actions led by those desires, then stay out of romantic situations with those of the same sex. Now, if you want to discuss whether having homosexual sex is wrong or sinful, then that is and can be further discussed elsewhere. The question here was is it genetic or is it not, and you have added nothing.

It does play a role in homosexuality. You can chose to be homosexual if you want that lifestyle, but most who practice that lifestyle do it because that was the way they were programed. The treatment offered doesn't "cure" at all, it is merely aversion therapy. And if you want a med student's analysis here it is. Med Student He says basically: We don't know to be honest, but it is partially genetic.

Oh, and I like logic, you are correct, but not when it is faulty according to me. "But that doesn't make the fact that they commit these actions correct." You said you didn't want to talk about that in this thread...hm...

Let me also say, that you are not the typical conservative, and this speaks more to those who are...like Squak.

Here's my question to you: how am I, personally, being unaccepting to homosexuals? How am I personally acting towards homosexuals that you would suggest should change. In fact, how are Christians treating homosexuals, as a group, that you are not happy with? What actions are Christianity commiting against homosexuals that you think should end?
Furhtermore, who is it you're proposing we "preach to" and under what authority? Why is this your concern? Are you under the impression that homosexuals are unaware of contraceptives? Why teach homosexuals how to have safe sex when abstinance is 100 percent effective?

Im not saying you, but the majority of concervatives here, and in the world think them "sinful" people who are frankly evil. Christians see them as evil and practicing evil because of what they view as a lifestyle choice.

As to contraceptives...are we back to abstinence? that is great to teach, but the fact remains that we have to teach both because there will be sex and when they do have sex, heterosexual or homosexual, it has to be safe. I am not under that impression, but it has to be preached more.

Some other links you should check out.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm (great definitions and explanations)
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3359.htm

 

[shuamort]

Shuamort, what you are not recognizing is that this is all coming from a great deal of people who are indeed Christian. As easy as it sounds, it is not, in fact, as easy at it would seem to grasp the fact that even though we believe some things to be truly right or truly wrong, that some people choose to do them and find nothing wrong with them. As for myself, I am not telling you what you can and cannot do with your body. BUT, if you ask me what is right or wrong, then I have no problem telling you. The difference is deciding who ought to be the judge in the matter, and I personally will allow God to be my judge, and I will allow Him to be your judge. If you honestly feel that being homosexual is not a sin, then why do you concern yourself with what I believe as so long as I continue to allow you to practice in a manner you like, within equal reason (in other words, your rights ought to be the same as everyone else's). I will not punish you, or abuse you, or attack you (verbally or otherwise), but I will not have a problem telling you point blank that according to what I understand to be the Word, I think it is rather clear what the will of God is regarding sex and marriage, and same-sex relationships do not fall under that. But, again I return to my argument of genetic tendancy of alcoholism and pedophilia, and neither of those are appropriate. And I feel that homosexuality lies among them as something that can be genetically effected, but no matter how prone to something you may be, that does not mean that you do not have the ability to choose not to adhere to it. You make homosexuality sound unaviodable, and I simply do not see any proof that would lead me to believe that is the case. I believe that we have enough evidence to argue that environment does have a great deal of influence on every person, so to presume that it has nothing to do with sexual preference is not logical. The problem with this particular forum is that it is debating two seperate issues as though they were one.
Issue 1: Is homosexuality completely genetic, completely environmental, a mixture of the two, or something else entirely?
Issue 2: Is it "right" to act upon homosexual desires, and under what pretenses are we judging rightness?
Two issues as seperate as these only becoming cloudy when joined together.

Because the f***ing ignorance of Christians that believe the New Testament addresses homosexuality. It's that, that gets my goat. The fact that I, as a non-christian, know more about the Bible than most Christians do. That Christians hide behind the Bible to support their ignorant, bigoted, self-centered views. That Christians are too dumb to learn from their past when the Bible was used in politics to support:

1. Slavery
2. Evolution
3. Astronomy
4. Stopping Women's Suffrage
5. Stopping Women from working
6. Personal choice
7. Marriage between races
8. etc

Hasn't the religion done enough ignorance shilling that you should just see it for what it is? Ignorant.

(This isn't a rant against you or your religion, just the people that continue to push their ignorance while saying "'cause it's in the bible")