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What's Happening in this country?

DrM

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Action speak louder than words. It is one thing to claim in words that we are Christians or that our politics are driven by our religious training. It is quite another to put forth programs or plans that are obviously contradictory to those teachings.

Paul Ryan's budget, with Mitt Romney says he will adopt if he is elected president, is the prime example of such hypocrisy. Ryan claims his budget is based on his Roman Catholic teachings. Not true according to nuns and Catholic bishops!

How is it that so many Christians today seem to have abandoned the teachings of Jesus when it comes to caring for the poor, the needy, the uneducated, the misinformed, the powerless, etc.? I don't see this as a responsibility of individual Christians, but that of our churches and her institutions and other charities and our government.

The first and foremost responsibility of our government is the protection of its people. This covers a lot of ground, and this is generally spelled out in our Constitution; in our Bill of Rights. There we have listed five basic freedoms. Secondly, the responsibility of our government is to do for the people those things which they are unable to do for themselves.

People, and our Supreme Court, have different ideas about what freedom means. Some in business believe that free enterprise means the right to do as you please business-wise. The Supreme Court and Mitt Romney think corporations are people and can give their corporate profits to political campaigns. Because of this, this year over a billion dollars will be spent on politics while education is cut, food stamps and other federal and state programs for the needy also. Don't tell me this is Christian and in keeping with the teachings of Jesus the Christ or Yahweh.

When we turn away from helping others who need our help, we turn away from God and ignore Amos, the prophet who said for God, "but let justice roll down like the waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream." Which shall it be for us?

As chaplain of our United States Congress, the late Peter Marshall prayed in their presence, "Freedom does not mean the right to do as you please, but the opportunity to do what is right.

I must wonder if it was illegal for lobbists to enrich our politicians with special interests, would they serve the citizens instead of a few? Would ethics take precedence over greed?
 

Tigger

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How is it that so many Christians today seem to have abandoned the teachings of Jesus when it comes to caring for the poor, the needy, the uneducated, the misinformed, the powerless, etc.? I don't see this as a responsibility of individual Christians, but that of our churches and her institutions and other charities and our government.

You were fine right up until those last three words. See, not everyone in this country IS a Christian. Not everyone in this country believes that it is their responsibility to take care of many of those people. Definitely not through the Government.
 

Daktoria

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Paul Ryan's budget, with Mitt Romney says he will adopt if he is elected president, is the prime example of such hypocrisy. Ryan claims his budget is based on his Roman Catholic teachings. Not true according to nuns and Catholic bishops!

Can you explain this?

The first and foremost responsibility of our government is the protection of its people. This covers a lot of ground, and this is generally spelled out in our Constitution; in our Bill of Rights. There we have listed five basic freedoms. Secondly, the responsibility of our government is to do for the people those things which they are unable to do for themselves.

Actually, the "necessary and proper" and "general welfare" clauses were motioned by Alexander Hamilton to build the National Bank.

The first and foremost responsibility of our government is the protection of its people. This covers a lot of ground, and this is generally spelled out in our Constitution; in our Bill of Rights. There we have listed five basic freedoms. Secondly, the responsibility of our government is to do for the people those things which they are unable to do for themselves.

People, and our Supreme Court, have different ideas about what freedom means. Some in business believe that free enterprise means the right to do as you please business-wise. The Supreme Court and Mitt Romney think corporations are people and can give their corporate profits to political campaigns. Because of this, this year over a billion dollars will be spent on politics while education is cut, food stamps and other federal and state programs for the needy also. Don't tell me this is Christian and in keeping with the teachings of Jesus the Christ or Yahweh.

When we turn away from helping others who need our help, we turn away from God and ignore Amos, the prophet who said for God, "but let justice roll down like the waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream." Which shall it be for us?

As chaplain of our United States Congress, the late Peter Marshall prayed in their presence, "Freedom does not mean the right to do as you please, but the opportunity to do what is right.

I must wonder if it was illegal for lobbists to enrich our politicians with special interests, would they serve the citizens instead of a few? Would ethics take precedence over greed?

How ironic of you to prey on Catholic guilt while advocating the Protestant Work Ethic.
 

Meathead

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Ryan is one of the few people trying to take the deficit by the balls. We can do it now in an orderly fashion or be forced to do it like Greece down the road. It is our choice. Pay now, or pay much more down the road. It really is that simple.

It has nothing to do with anyone's religion or freedom. It has everything to do with economic realities and adapting to a changing world.
 

ttwtt78640

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Income redistribution is NOT a "Christian" or "Catholic" teaching of the function of GOV'T. Cite ANY example of this from the nuns and bishops. You have become very confused about the role of gov't. Just because YOU feel good about giving away the earnings of others, via taxation and income redistribution, does not make it a constitutional power of federal gov't to play "Robinhood". I wait your backing of these "gov't = charity" assertions from your "Catholic" officials.
 

RGacky3

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Income redistribution is NOT a "Christian" or "Catholic" teaching of the function of GOV'T.

Read Acts, and James, and the Gospels ... They were all pretty socially thinking.

Infact in the New Testiment the ONLY time someone was killed was for withholding from the Christian collective.
 

Daktoria

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Read Acts, and James, and the Gospels ... They were all pretty socially thinking.

Infact in the New Testiment the ONLY time someone was killed was for withholding from the Christian collective.

Charity =/= taxes.
 

RGacky3

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The early jerusalem Christian community wasn't charity ... it was collective property.
 

DrM

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You're correct. However, it really has to be one or the other. I'm not sure how it could be both. (I am not a Christian. However, I am familiar with the teachings and the preaching.) I am indicating that the claims made on the right, i.e. Christianity as a lynchpin to win elections is not ethical. The premise is not ethical.) We all understand that the right has adopted Christianity has been adopted as a vote getter.
You were fine right up until those last three words. See, not everyone in this country IS a Christian. Not everyone in this country believes that it is their responsibility to take care of many of those people. Definitely not through the Government.
 

ttwtt78640

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Income redistribution is NOT a "Christian" or "Catholic" teaching of the function of GOV'T. Cite ANY example of this from the nuns and bishops. You have become very confused about the role of gov't. Just because YOU feel good about giving away the earnings of others, via taxation and income redistribution, does not make it a constitutional power of federal gov't to play "Robinhood". I wait your backing of these "gov't = charity" assertions from your "Catholic" officials.

I find much of this POLITICAL nonsense used as official "church" doctrine and as such these "religious" (i.e. not poitical) organizations should LOSE all tax exempt status IMMEDIATELY: US bishops: Ryan budget fails to meet

Any "religious" group that backs the giving of U.S. tax money to illegal aliens should be TAXED. It NOT the mission of a religion to attempt to influence gov't TAX policy while NOT paying taxes themselves. That is hypocricy, and political activism, at its very limit. This nation is taking representaion without taxation to new limits. It is VERY easy to be generous with other people's money.
 
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RGacky3

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Just to be clear, as a christian, I don't think the government of ANY country should be governed by any religious doctrine ...

But it is totally hypocritical for right wingers to claim this is a "christian country."
 

DrM

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Not all citizens are Christian but the right uses that leverage to gain votes. If not for the welfare of the nations, then who? Is your money so precious to you that you resent giving to others? If that's true, then you worship your possessions more than people. No problem with me but if you claim Christianity, it can't happen!
You were fine right up until those last three words. See, not everyone in this country IS a Christian. Not everyone in this country believes that it is their responsibility to take care of many of those people. Definitely not through the Government.
 

DrM

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Agree on both points! Theocracy is what we escaped from. We want smaller government so long as the religious right can put it in place. EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES! What a country.
Just to be clear, as a christian, I don't think the government of ANY country should be governed by any religious doctrine ...

But it is totally hypocritical for right wingers to claim this is a "christian country."
 

lizzie

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The first and foremost responsibility of our government is the protection of its people. This covers a lot of ground, and this is generally spelled out in our Constitution; in our Bill of Rights. There we have listed five basic freedoms. Secondly, the responsibility of our government is to do for the people those things which they are unable to do for themselves.

To the bolded: What is your assertion based on, other than your feelings and belief?

Protection of the borders, which is a constitutional role of government, is not the same thing as a mother protecting her children. The former is constitutional. The latter is a parental obligation.

When we turn away from helping others who need our help, we turn away from God and ignore Amos, the prophet who said for God, "but let justice roll down like the waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream." Which shall it be for us?

Charity is a concept in which people give from their hearts, and of their own free will, and not at the threat of government coercion.
 

Daktoria

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Just to be clear, as a christian, I don't think the government of ANY country should be governed by any religious doctrine ...

But it is totally hypocritical for right wingers to claim this is a "christian country."

How can communities celebrate the arts without religion?

Event avant-garde movements mock religious principles.
 

DrM

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I find much of this POLITICAL nonsense used as official "church" doctrine and as such these "religious" (i.e. not poitical) organizations should LOSE all tax exempt status IMMEDIATELY: US bishops: Ryan budget fails to meet

Any "religious" group that backs the giving of U.S. tax money to illegal aliens should be TAXED. It NOT the mission of a religion to attempt to influence gov't TAX policy while NOT paying taxes themselves. That is hypocricy, and political activism, at its very limit. This nation is taking representaion without taxation to new limits. It is VERY easy to be generous with other people's money.
AMEN!!! Both sides of the coin. . .I want both sides.
 

TheRedOx

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It kinda seems as if you're implying that Jesus the Savior and/or God the Almighty instantly strike down people for not putting in a certain amount of money into the Christian collective, without a second thought, or giving a chance to correct mistakes. I assure you, you are wrong.
 
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DrM

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My assertion is simply based on humanity. Not religion, simple ethics.
To the bolded: What is your assertion based on, other than your feelings and belief?

Protection of the borders, which is a constitutional role of government, is not the same thing as a mother protecting her children. The former is constitutional. The latter is a parental obligation.
Here the focus goes back to "constitutional", not religion. If Washington, Jefferson, Madison believed the same about the constitution authored, noone of us would be here. Do I think others should come into the country free willy? No. But it may not be just yes or no. There may be other options more humane.


Charity is a concept in which people give from their hearts, and of their own free will, and not at the threat of government coercion.
Good. If this was visible by actions as well as words, we wouldn't have this forum. "Give" all but not money?
 

ttwtt78640

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Not all citizens are Christian but the right uses that leverage to gain votes. If not for the welfare of the nations, then who? Is your money so precious to you that you resent giving to others? If that's true, then you worship your possessions more than people. No problem with me but if you claim Christianity, it can't happen!

Nonsense. Charity is FREELY giving to help your neaighbor in need, it is NOT having soldiers and tax collectors take from you to help those that THEY choose to favor. One of the PRIMARY objections of the USCCB was to stop funding illegal aliens, hardly a non-political position. No one objects to the USCCB funding whoever they want to, yet to DEMAND that others do so is FAR from any biblical teachings. Just which parable of Mathew 25 does the USCCB cite as requiring the gov't to help anyone?
 

TheRedOx

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You mentioned Christian. Can you state the specific number of people Saint Peter converted during his legendary sermon? While you ponder on that, I'd like to point out that you just stated a hypocritical statement and then proceeded to imply you have distaste for hypocrites. As an authentic christian myself, I understand the fact that we as a people(christians) should naturally be governed by a government with a christian doctrine. Unless, of course, you would want to have laws enforced on yourself by people who don't have god in their hearts?
 

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My assertion is simply based on humanity. Not religion, simple ethics.Good. If this was visible by actions as well as words, we wouldn't have this forum. "Give" all but not money?

Give of your own accord, not at the threat of force by those in power. The former is charity. The latter is theft, for which the penalty for fairulre to pay, is violence against the individual.
 

DrM

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Income redistribution is NOT a "Christian" or "Catholic" teaching of the function of GOV'T. Cite ANY example of this from the nuns and bishops. You have become very confused about the role of gov't. Just because YOU feel good about giving away the earnings of others, via taxation and income redistribution, does not make it a constitutional power of federal gov't to play "Robinhood". I wait your backing of these "gov't = charity" assertions from your "Catholic" officials.
I couldn't agree more with your first statement. I claim it shouldn't be as well. However, isn't it a personal responsibility of Christians to help their brother? I am in completely in touch with the role of government. . .Not to be infused with religion to make political points. "Just because I feel good about giving away the earnings of others" . . . . . .Invalid assumption. I don't know of anyone who feels good about giving away their earnings, including some very, very, very rich people, worth hundreds of millions. . . . . . . . .
 

ttwtt78640

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AMEN!!! Both sides of the coin. . .I want both sides.

What are you talking about? I am saying that if the church group wants to remain tax exempt that they must also refrain from taking POLITICAL positions. There is not ONE SHREAD of biblical teachings that says GOV'T should enforce charity, or income redistribution. It is this church group that wants it "both ways" to be separate (and tax exempt) as a religion AND to make gov't policy, implying that God favors a particular political policy. There is a VAST difference from freely giving to others and demanding taxation to do so.
 

RGacky3

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How can communities celebrate the arts without religion?

Event avant-garde movements mock religious principles.

The state doesn't belong in religion OR the arts ...

It kinda seems as if you're implying that Jesus the Savior and/or God the Almighty instantly strike down people for not putting in a certain amount of money into the Christian collective, without a second thought, or giving a chance to correct mistakes. I assure you, you are wrong.

I'm just talking about what happened in the book of acts ...

What I'm saying is that christian principles, is necessarily opposed to the capitalist philosophy.

Nonsense. Charity is FREELY giving to help your neaighbor in need, it is NOT having soldiers and tax collectors take from you to help those that THEY choose to favor. One of the PRIMARY objections of the USCCB was to stop funding illegal aliens, hardly a non-political position. No one objects to the USCCB funding whoever they want to, yet to DEMAND that others do so is FAR from any biblical teachings. Just which parable of Mathew 25 does the USCCB cite as requiring the gov't to help anyone?

It has nothing to do with the government ... christianity was not about state, infact Jesus SPECIFICALLY stayed out of politics (they tried to make him a king he refused, his kingdom was not of this world), however the principles of christianity were always communal, socialistic.

As an authentic christian myself, I understand the fact that we as a people(christians) should naturally be governed by a government with a christian doctrine. Unless, of course, you would want to have laws enforced on yourself by people who don't have god in their hearts?

Not at all, faith is faith, once you start enforcing faith its not faith anymore.

I don't want ANYONE in government to dictate faith to me, my faith is my faith.

I want the legal systems and the political/economic framework to be only based on the common good with NO faith involved.
 
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