What would have been the history ...

[alphamale]

... of the world if the U.S. disappeared on Dec. 7, 1941?

(Mods note: Can you cool your move-the-post trigger finger just this once? In answering the above post, the responder is required to analyze historical forces in the twentieth century - hence the history forum.)

 

[Sir_Alec]

Predicted headlines! (by increments of a year to a half year)

D-day in Britain: The first waves of Germans were wiped out, but as the later divisions came in the defenders were overcome and destroyed.

The German Fallschirmjager parachute into the areas around London and fight their way into the city.

The British defense line breaks after a major German offensive. It's reported that 10,000 have died.

The German advance in Britain is slowed as the Soviet Union approaches the East German border.

The Soviets take Berlin and the Germans can no longer advance in Britain. Britain pushed the Germans back all the way to London.

The Soviets occupy all of Germany and are pushing into France. Hitler is found dead in an underground Bunker :lol:

Britain and the Soviet Union link up in Palaies, France. A treaty with Germany is signed and the war ends.

Germany would have never won the war. It would have been impossible.

 

[alphamale]

How abot this?

- Hitler invades UK in 1941. The brits fight bravely, but surrounded by u-boats and cut off from re-supply, they are doomed. Germany maintains peace pact with soviets for the time being - invasion of soviet union in 1940 never takes place.

- The brits in north africa surrender to the germans as part of the armistice with the UK.

- Japan is free to consolidate and expand it's holdings in the pacific. Australia is invaded, fights bravely but is overwhelmed. All of southeast asia is overrun by the japs.

- The japs push east and conquer india, eventually they meet up with the germans, and control the middle east.

- Russia is now surrounded. The axis forces, now in command of massive amounts of war materiel and conscripted men, invade russia in April, 1944. It takes two years, but russia is detroyed, including with the use of german ICBMs, jets, and nukes, and has to fight a three-front war.

- Japan and germany split up the rest of the world - japan gets south america, while germany gets the rest of africa. Those regions capitulate with hardly a fight.

 

[Sir_Alec]

How abot this?

- Hitler invades UK in 1941. The brits fight bravely, but surrounded by u-boats and cut off from re-supply, they are doomed. Germany maintains peace pact with soviets for the time being - invasion of soviet union in 1940 never takes place.

- The brits in north africa surrender to the germans as part of the armistice with the UK.

- Japan is free to consolidate and expand it's holdings in the pacific. Australia is invaded, fights bravely but is overwhelmed. All of southeast asia is overrun by the japs.

- The japs push east and conquer india, eventually they meet up with the germans, and control the middle east.

- Russia is now surrounded. The axis forces, now in command of massive amounts of war materiel and conscripted men, invade russia in April, 1944. It takes two years, but russia is detroyed, including with the use of german ICBMs, jets, and nukes, and has to fight a three-front war.

- Japan and germany split up the rest of the world - japan gets south america, while germany gets the rest of africa. Those regions capitulate with hardly a fight.

No offense but I don't think you realize that Russia had the capacity to destroy Germany three times over. America was a great asset to the allies, but to say America won the war is absurd. We did about as much as the British.

Also, too say that Germany would split up the world with Japan may be the most slowest statment on the planet. You think Hitler would give part of the world to people he considers inferior and worthy of exterminating?

 

[alphamale]

No offense but I don't think you realize that Russia had the capacity to destroy Germany three times over.

Whether russia had the capacity is not precisely the issue. The issue is whether under a different unfolding of events, the russians would have been defeated. The germans turned and attacked russia because UK proved too tough to defeat. UK was too tough to defeat because of massive U.S. aid.

America was a great asset to the allies, but to say America won the war is absurd. We did about as much as the British.

You are getting off track here.

Also, too say that Germany would split up the world with Japan may be the most slowest statment on the planet. You think Hitler would give part of the world to people he considers inferior and worthy of exterminating?

Try arguing points instead of casting aspersions. Like saying (if it hadn't happened) "You think Hitler would ever form an alliance with japanese?? He considered asians inferior" but history is LOADED with alliances of convenience, e.g., the U.S. with the Soviets, and the Nationalist and Communist chinese in WWII. The great enemy the germans had to eliminate (assuming as this post does the disappearance of the U.S.) would be the soviet union. I didn't speculate on the aftermath of a german/japanese world takeover. With uranium readily available from africa, and a then advanced german nuke research program finishing up in say 1946-7, the germans could have nuked the japanese into submission.

 

[LogicalReason]

Its up in the air and I see where both sides of this debate. Theres a lot of ifs either way and no one will ever know how it would have played out.

Germany probably would have been defeated still. The US was important but the rest of the world would probably have won anyway. Germany didn't really have a large chance of sucess to begin with.

But you never know if there had been victory for Germany it would have been because of the following probably. The Germans might have been able to advance far enough into Russia to take them out of the war. The western allies without the US may not have had the man power to hold their front. Japan might have invaded Russia from the pacific.. and dealt it another crushing defeat.

 

[PeaceBrother]

I would think that if Germany backed off britain for a year or two, knowing that they did not have the capacity to invade into france and focused on russia they would have been able to take them out.
Had germany left a uboat blockade of britain, turned and together with japan attacked russia they probably would have been able to take them out within a couple years. The axis clearly had free reign over the oceans and would have easily blockaded off any supplies going into russia or britain. Coupled with the fact that russia still wasnt that industrialised and didnt have the resources at that point to effectively fight on two fronts they would have crumpled under the onslaught of a german and japanese full on attack. With russia out of the way they could have easily just marched across the world. Britain is just an island and I'll give them two years before the blockade cripples them into surrender.
As for post war. I agree. I cant see hitler just splitting the world with the japanese. The germans would have either overthrown him and his arian race ideas, or he would have gotten into a war with japan. I have a feeling japan would have won out in the end out of sheer will and determination. Especially since germany would have been divided over who thier leader should be with the whole arian race thing.

As for something mentioned about germany nuking russia. No way! The germans had no equivelant to the manhattan project. They knew it would take years to develop, and they thought that they would either win lightning fast, or they would lose should it take any longer. They knew that the key to thier victory was not letting the enemy build up its forces, and to take them out quick. They didnt want to divert thier resources into the atom bomb that would take years to construct. So you can pretty much take the nuke out of any equation if the US disappeared.

 

[RealmOfThePureForms]

No offense but I don't think you realize that Russia had the capacity to destroy Germany three times over. America was a great asset to the allies, but to say America won the war is absurd. We did about as much as the British.

Also, too say that Germany would split up the world with Japan may be the most slowest statment on the planet. You think Hitler would give part of the world to people he considers inferior and worthy of exterminating?

Could you be a little more arrogant toward alphamale? No offense, but I don't think you realize that you have no idea what you are talking about. Russia did not have the capacity to destroy Germany 3 times over. That is a ridiculous statement.

Russia was on the brink of collapse by 1942 because of Germany and the battle of Stalingrad was Russia's last stand. Even people with the most basic historical knowledge of WW2 knew this. Stalin had to order his men to be shot dead if they retreated because Germany had swept Russian troops out of so many Russian cities that Russia itself was in danger of being conquered.

For anyone who wants more information on this go to http://www.onwar.com/articles/9907.htm

Hitler could have easily wiped Russia off the map if the war was 1 on 1. Germany was superior to Russia in almost every aspect of the war from technological progress throughout the war to manufacturing weapons for the war to execution of military tactics throughout the war.

Russia had 3 things going for them.

1) Massive amounts of soldiers
2) Russian winter
3) Germany was fighting a 2 front war

I personally think the slowest statement on the planet was you telling everyone that Russia had the capacity to destroy Germany 3 times over. Maybe next time, you could read a history book before make claims that aren't true?

 

[Asi]

Possibly the Germans would had to fight a Guerrilla war in the Soviet Union? Germany would have likely won the war without U.S. intervention, but I doubt they could have kept up the German Reich for more than 30 years, especially after Hitler either died or was deposed

 

[scipian]

I'd say that England would have lost in no time. Presumably the British in th Middle East would surrender too. With all their power and resources they would have focused on Russia. As stated, Russia was about to collapse. Japan had nothing other than America and England stopping it. If America was still around (if we had never done ANYTHING in the war) I guess they would have conquered the Eastern Hemisphere first. Some day then they would have invaded the U.S. Granted the U.S. would be like Britain only a LOT larger, we would have fallen. Then, the giant squirrels would have overthrown the Nazis and enslaved the humans to work in their acorn mines.

(The last bit was thrown in to make this a true conspiracy theory)

 

[LeftyHenry]

The nation of Giant Bunny rabbits would form as an enclave in Germany and using theere bunny army they'd succesfully invade Berlin. Than Stalin, Churchill, and Mr. Giant Bunny would meet up in Berlin and dance happily.

This has got to be the most retarded thread in DP history.

 

[Iriemon]

How abot this?

- Hitler invades UK in 1941. The brits fight bravely, but surrounded by u-boats and cut off from re-supply, they are doomed. Germany maintains peace pact with soviets for the time being - invasion of soviet union in 1940 never takes place.

The Germans tried this and failed in the Fall of '40. For a successful invasion of the UK, Germany needed to control the skies. Otherwise the Royal AF and Navy would have made mincemeat out of the German invasion force.

That is what the battle of Britain was about. The UK won with Spitfires and Hurricanes and the valiant RAF, and this was before significant US aid started arriving. Without control of the skies, Hitler had to scotch the idea of invading Britain.

The SU was not invaded in '40.

- The brits in north africa surrender to the germans as part of the armistice with the UK.

Would not have changed. The Germans decided to invade Russia in '41 and sent the bulk of its resources there. The fact it was diverted in Yugoslavia and Greece as it was set the invasion of the SU back a couple months, which may very well have costs the Germans the campaign.

- Japan is free to consolidate and expand it's holdings in the pacific. Australia is invaded, fights bravely but is overwhelmed. All of southeast asia is overrun by the japs.

Is your hypo that the US did not exist or withdrew after being attacked?

- The japs push east and conquer india, eventually they meet up with the germans, and control the middle east.

Possible they might have focused on India, their main goal was securing oil and they had their hands full in China.

- Russia is now surrounded. The axis forces, now in command of massive amounts of war materiel and conscripted men, invade russia in April, 1944. It takes two years, but russia is detroyed, including with the use of german ICBMs, jets, and nukes, and has to fight a three-front war.

You are changing your hypothetical, which was what would have happened if the US did not enter the war in Dec 41. The Germans invaded Russia in May '41, before the US entered the war. It would have have been different.

- Japan and germany split up the rest of the world - japan gets south america, while germany gets the rest of africa. Those regions capitulate with hardly a fight.

Unlikely. The UK and Russia defeat the Germans (though it is even longer and bloodier). Once Germany is defeated, they focus on Japan and reconquering their territories.

 

[Iriemon]

Could you be a little more arrogant toward alphamale? No offense, but I don't think you realize that you have no idea what you are talking about. Russia did not have the capacity to destroy Germany 3 times over. That is a ridiculous statement.

Not three times over, but Russian had greater resources and industrial capacity than Germany, and outproduced Germany in all categories of major battlefield equipment.

Russia was on the brink of collapse by 1942 because of Germany and the battle of Stalingrad was Russia's last stand. Even people with the most basic historical knowledge of WW2 knew this. Stalin had to order his men to be shot dead if they retreated because Germany had swept Russian troops out of so many Russian cities that Russia itself was in danger of being conquered.

For anyone who wants more information on this go to http://www.onwar.com/articles/9907.htm

The SU had stopped Germany in Leningrad and Moscow in '41. Stalingrad was the decisive battle following the German's southern offensive in '41. It was a very tough battle, but in the end, the Soviets surrounded the Germany forces and destroyed the German 6th Army.

Hitler could have easily wiped Russia off the map if the war was 1 on 1. Germany was superior to Russia in almost every aspect of the war from technological progress throughout the war to manufacturing weapons for the war to execution of military tactics throughout the war.

It pretty much was 1 on 1. North Africa was a tiny sideshow and the allies were not able to mount a serious threat of invasion in France until, '44, maybe '43 at the earliest. By then it was already decided.

Russia had 3 things going for them.

1) Massive amounts of soldiers
2) Russian winter
3) Germany was fighting a 2 front war

Germany was not fighting a 2 front war in '41-42, arguably not a significant one until the Allied invasion of Normandy in '44.

Other advantages of the SU:

4) More resources -- including manpower and oil
5) Greater industrial capacity.
6) Fighting on its home front -- and lots of territory it could give up for time.

I personally think the slowest statement on the planet was you telling everyone that Russia had the capacity to destroy Germany 3 times over. Maybe next time, you could read a history book before make claims that aren't true?

If you read history books, you understand that it was the Red Army that defeated the Wermacht.

 

[LogicalReason]

Without the US.. would there have been D-Day?

 

[Iriemon]

Without the US.. would there have been D-Day?

Who knows? It is questionable whether England and the Commonwealth forces could have mounted an invasion without US assistance. By June '44, however, the Germans were in full retreat on the Eastern front and had withdrawn from Russia. There really was not much a German force in France at the time, and as the Russians pushed toward Berlin more an more resources would probably have been withdrawn from France to the Eastern front. It is possible with the decline of the German forces, there would have been uprisings in France against German forces as there were in Poland, Yugoslavia and other places, and that this combined with a British task force could have mounted an invasion (3 of the 5 D-Day landing zones were by British and Canadian forces). But this is all pretty speculative stuff.

 

[mad_rapsody]

There is no "what if" in history!