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What the Derek Chauvin trial is focused on

as opposed to someone like me who has a background in both law enforcement and defensive tactics?

Lol! Do you not realise that bragging like that actually makes you seem like someone lacking in self esteem?

Did you also know that you are one of several here that claim expert knowledge, whilst demonstrating that you actually know very little?
 
mob justice in the US has happened in the past.

Yes, the USA is a violent and scary place....but what you don't seem to have the intelligence to realise is that it is this threat of "mob justice" that produced the result in the OJ trial, and now this one.
 
Some wise words that will be lost on the bigoted racists (and the Democrat leaders who need their votes) but I'll post them anyway :


" The media has sent subtle— and not so subtle— messages, warning audiences that anything short of a full conviction will lead to fatalities and massive destruction of property. So, basically, it is the jury’s duty to prevent riots from happening, and to do that, they must convict Chauvin. In so doing, Chauvin will become the sacrificial lamb whose imprisonment will save the nation."

 
The world has witnessed a trial that was not about justice but about racism.

Chauvin has been deemed by the bigoted to have committed a race based killing, even though there is not a shred of evidence to support this claim.

I doubt that this result will have any beneficial effect on the horrendous murder rate in the USA....which is FIVE times that of my own country.

Blacks, who are FOUR times more likely than whites to commit murder, will continue to play the victim instead of spending their time dealing with the real problem....which is that it is other blacks who are murdering over 90% black people, not the police.

But I guess it's easier for them to avoid responsibility and blame others for the problems that their own communities have created.
 
Lol! Do you not realise that bragging like that actually makes you seem like someone lacking in self esteem?

Did you also know that you are one of several here that claim expert knowledge, whilst demonstrating that you actually know very little?
It wasnt bragging...he was just informing you.

Like I did, and you resented that too.
 
The world has witnessed a trial that was not about justice but about racism.

Chauvin has been deemed by the bigoted to have committed a race based killing, even though there is not a shred of evidence to support this claim.

I doubt that this result will have any beneficial effect on the horrendous murder rate in the USA....which is FIVE times that of my own country.

Blacks, who are FOUR times more likely than whites to commit murder, will continue to play the victim instead of spending their time dealing with the real problem....which is that it is other blacks who are murdering over 90% black people, not the police.

But I guess it's easier for them to avoid responsibility and blame others for the problems that their own communities have created.
🤷 over and over I've said I saw no evidence of racism from Chauvin but the video and his actions clearly showed murder. How am I bigoted or making it about racism?
 
Sorry, the defense had ONE guy to make that up. He never examined the body. And he said the cause of death was 'undetermined.' You saw that, right?

The prosecution had several medical experts and all agreed...COD was homicide. You know the meaning of that word, right? And some of those experts DID examine the body.

I didnt ignore the fact, I'm just rational and able to critically think it thru and see that one witness that 'didnt know' doesnt overcome the many others that backed their opinions with solid medical opinion.

Seems like you are grasping at straws to hang onto your preconceived beliefs like grim death.

Sorry, what you don't understand is that truth is not determined by a poll of experts,, or the depth of one side's budget and their packing of 12 lawyers. It is supposed to be determined with the assistance of a judge who enforces a few basic principles of court procedure that this judge did not:

1) One or two experts on a subject is fine. However witnesses that asserts the same conclusion without new evidence over and over is called cumulative; it should have been (and normally is) disallowed because this tactic is prejudicial and sways a jury by repetition of an opinion rather than by new evidence.

One example is the third party "expert" brought in to "interpret" the ME autopsy report, while the report author (Baker?) testified anyway. THAT is normally impermissible.

2) Then there was that clown, Dr. Rich, whose over acting would have made William Shatner look reserved. I believe he was the "expert" that attempted to sell the jury that an enlarged heart is a "feature" rather than a cardio-pulmonary flaw and threat.

3) And let us not forget Dr. Tobin, the amazing video quantitative expert who claimed he could measure changes in lung volume down to an exact percent just by looking at a cell phone video. Mind you, none of his methodology was vetted by a peer reviewed and approved forensic methods of lung volume measurement- but hey, rather than disallow such testimony unless proven as accurate and robust the judge allowed it.

So no, I am not impressed by a collection of dramatists, home brewed visuals claiming to be as accurate as an actual pulmonary volume measurement machine, or by a pathologist who is shocked that of the thousands of cases of prone knee restraint in a study, NONE resulted in deaths. Gee might it be because she only gets to examine dead people?

To underscore, it doesn't matter how many shills are brought in to say "Chauvin killed Floyd"; to an intelligent juror all that matters is to examine the basis and methods behind that claim to see if it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" as determinative.
 
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Yes, the USA is a violent and scary place....but what you don't seem to have the intelligence to realise is that it is this threat of "mob justice" that produced the result in the OJ trial, and now this one.
What? People were gonna riot if OJ was convicted?!? Hardly. No riots when he went to jail on other charges.

Simple questions: was Chauvin guilty In the killing of Floyd or not? Should the jury have returned a not guilty verdict and why?
 
Lol!

I am merely a curious observer of the US justice system. After the OJ trial, most of the world is well aware that intimidation and threats of violence by some racist blacks in the USA can influence the verdicts of your Courts.
People threatened violence if OJ had been convicted? News to us here in the US who watched the trial closely. He eventually went to jail and nothing happened as I recall.
 
And I am sure you can also leap tall buildings in a single bound. :rolleyes:

You can tell whatever story you want to invent, but all your posts indicate only one things and that is you are part of those who wanted Chauvin found guilty, no matter what evidence was produced at the trial.
Gee, if witnesses came forward and said that Chauvin was in LA when all this happened, or that the video showed that it was Trump or Biden that was kneeling on Floyd's neck, with Chauvin objecting or even taping the event, those you refer to would have surely wanted Chauvin to be found not guilty. But the evidence being what it is, they felt otherwise. I felt the same about those who beat up Rodney King, about Charlie Manson, about OJ, etc., but I don't always get what I want. What did you want the verdict to be?
 
People threatened violence if OJ had been convicted?

You must really live in some remote part of the US if you don't know that.

Or perhaps you just prefer to ignore an inconvenient truth.
 
Like I did, and you resented that too.

I don't resent it.

I just find it hard to believe considering your low level of understanding of what happened during this trial.

The internet is full of people making false boasts.
 
to an intelligent juror all that matters is to examine the basis and methods behind that claim to see if it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" as determinative.

And you are silly enough to believe the high probability of American cities going up in flames and people losing their lives if BLM and other racists didn't get the verdict they were demanding did not have any effect on the jurors? Lol!

And of course, in your world, jurors would not be affected by the possible danger to themselves and their families if they delivered a not guilty verdict.

America, to you, is obviously a perfect place. To many others in the Western World, it is far from that.

I repeat my link posted above :

"it is the jury’s duty to prevent riots from happening, and to do that, they must convict Chauvin. In so doing, Chauvin will become the sacrificial lamb whose imprisonment will save the nation."
 
But the evidence being what it is, they felt otherwise.

Er, your version of "evidence" being obviously the mobs outside who would, without doubt, have gone on a rampage probably resulting in loss of life, maybe even the life of jurors?

It was plainly not possible to conduct a fair trial in such circumstances.
 
The world has witnessed a trial that was not about justice but about racism.

Chauvin has been deemed by the bigoted to have committed a race based killing, even though there is not a shred of evidence to support this claim.

I doubt that this result will have any beneficial effect on the horrendous murder rate in the USA....which is FIVE times that of my own country.

Blacks, who are FOUR times more likely than whites to commit murder, will continue to play the victim instead of spending their time dealing with the real problem....which is that it is other blacks who are murdering over 90% black people, not the police.

But I guess it's easier for them to avoid responsibility and blame others for the problems that their own communities have created.
Chauvin was not convicted of a race-based murder. Hate crime charges were not imposed. Had he done the same to a white guy, had it been taped, had the victim said he couldn't breathe, had Chauvin kept his knee on a white guy's neck for nine plus minutes, he would have been similarly charged and probably convicted. Obviously, race played a role in the public's perception of the incident. Go figure. Wake up and smell US history. And bigoted guy might - just might - have been the one with his knee on the other one's neck, but the jury was not charged with deciding if Chauvin was a bigot.
How would you have voted if on the jury?
 
Er, your version of "evidence" being obviously the mobs outside who would, without doubt, have gone on a rampage probably resulting in loss of life, maybe even the life of jurors?

It was plainly not possible to conduct a fair trial in such circumstances.
Obviously, given what you describe, the jury should have "manned up" and ignored the video, Floyd's phony "I can't breathe" BS, the lying testimony of Minneapolis cops, and found Chauvin not guilty. Why bother considering evidence; why bother believing your own eyes?

Of course there would have been trouble if Chauvin had been found not guilty. Duh. You do realize that he could really be guilty in spite of that, don't you? Did you interview the jurors about this to come to your remarkable conclusion about their cowardice? Are you longing for the days of Emmett Till and Rodney King, when people didn't get convicted of killing black people, no matter what the evidence?
 
And you are silly enough to believe the high probability of American cities going up in flames and people losing their lives if BLM and other racists didn't get the verdict they were demanding did not have any effect on the jurors? Lol!

And of course, in your world, jurors would not be affected by the possible danger to themselves and their families if they delivered a not guilty verdict.

America, to you, is obviously a perfect place. To many others in the Western World, it is far from that.

I repeat my link posted above :

"it is the jury’s duty to prevent riots from happening, and to do that, they must convict Chauvin. In so doing, Chauvin will become the sacrificial lamb whose imprisonment will save the nation."

It's the jurors duty to do nothing more than or less that determine if the accused is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt. If the jurors didn't have the courage to do that they should'nt have been on the jury.

And if they couldn't find a jury to do that then Chauvin should have gone free.
 
It's the jurors duty to do nothing more than or less that determine if the accused is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt. If the jurors didn't have the courage to do that they should'nt have been on the jury.

And if they couldn't find a jury to do that then Chauvin should have gone free.
Plus, I suppose someone like Ginza will eventually get around to questioning the jurors:

Q: "Which came up more and had more effect on your decision in the jury room, your thoughts about the result of a not-guilty verdict causing civil disturbances, or the video of one guy kneeling on another's neck, 'I can't breathe,' the other cops testimony, etc."

A: "Are you ****ing kidding?"
 
Plus, I suppose someone like Ginza will eventually get around to questioning the jurors:

Q: "Which came up more and had more effect on your decision in the jury room, your thoughts about the result of a not-guilty verdict causing civil disturbances, or the video of one guy kneeling on another's neck, 'I can't breathe,' the other cops testimony, etc."

A: "Are you ****ing kidding?"

I seriously doubt that all the jurors arrived at their decision either consciously or unconsciously without being seriously influenced by the violence and narrative in Minn for the last year. I am sure that at least a few (if not more) on the jury found it far easier to buy into the narrative and rationalize their vote in the face of public pressure and extreme moral indignation, that stand up to the reaction a non-guilty vote would bring.

That trial should have been moved to the farthest point on the map in Minnesota from Minn., or at least Duluth or Rochester. But then, that is only one of several judicial blunders in this case.
 
I seriously doubt that all the jurors arrived at their decision either consciously or unconsciously without being seriously influenced by the violence and narrative in Minn for the last year. I am sure that at least a few (if not more) on the jury found it far easier to buy into the narrative and rationalize their vote in the face of public pressure and extreme moral indignation, that stand up to the reaction a non-guilty vote would bring.

That trial should have been moved to the farthest point on the map in Minnesota from Minn., or at least Duluth or Rochester. But then, that is only one of several judicial blunders in this case.
So you think that their supposed knowledge affected their view of the evidence. Jury Foreman: "Before we start, let me suggest that we better vote to convict the guy despite our real belief that he was obviously innocent, because there will be riots if we don't?" And what narrative did they buy into? The false evidence of their eyes, the lying testimony of medical experts and other cops? Or were those witnesses victimized by the same false narrative? Face facts: Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck and caused his death in violation of procedure, common sense and, the jury decided, the law. What's your narrative? Floyd would have died that day, at that precise time, anyway? The knee in the neck was just a coincidence?
 
I don't resent it.

I just find it hard to believe considering your low level of understanding of what happened during this trial.

The internet is full of people making false boasts.
You have never, ever proven I didnt understand anything. You avoided most discussion of the facts...latching desperately onto singular testimony that was outweighed by everyone else testifying...and instead chose to get on your emotional soapbox and vent about the surrounding, *subjective* circumstances...which I was clear I wasnt interested in discussing. I'm not interested in your feelings about GF, black people, riots, peaceful protests, or your insulting view of the jury. I'm pretty sure I know exactly where you stand :rolleyes:
 
Sorry, what you don't understand is that truth is not determined by a poll of experts,, or the depth of one side's budget and their packing of 12 lawyers. It is supposed to be determined with the assistance of a judge who enforces a few basic principles of court procedure that this judge did not:

1) One or two experts on a subject is fine. However witnesses that asserts the same conclusion without new evidence over and over is called cumulative; it should have been (and normally is) disallowed because this tactic is prejudicial and sways a jury by repetition of an opinion rather than by new evidence.

One example is the third party "expert" brought in to "interpret" the ME autopsy report, while the report author (Baker?) testified anyway. THAT is normally impermissible.

2) Then there was that clown, Dr. Rich, whose over acting would have made William Shatner look reserved. I believe he was the "expert" that attempted to sell the jury that an enlarged heart is a "feature" rather than a cardio-pulmonary flaw and threat.

3) And let us not forget Dr. Tobin, the amazing video quantitative expert who claimed he could measure changes in lung volume down to an exact percent just by looking at a cell phone video. Mind you, none of his methodology was vetted by a peer reviewed and approved forensic methods of lung volume measurement- but hey, rather than disallow such testimony unless proven as accurate and robust the judge allowed it.

So no, I am not impressed by a collection of dramatists, home brewed visuals claiming to be as accurate as an actual pulmonary volume measurement machine, or by a pathologist who is shocked that of the thousands of cases of prone knee restraint in a study, NONE resulted in deaths. Gee might it be because she only gets to examine dead people?

To underscore, it doesn't matter how many shills are brought in to say "Chauvin killed Floyd"; to an intelligent juror all that matters is to examine the basis and methods behind that claim to see if it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" as determinative.
TL;dr

I've posted the facts and links for you before.
 
And you are silly enough to believe the high probability of American cities going up in flames and people losing their lives if BLM and other racists didn't get the verdict they were demanding did not have any effect on the jurors? Lol!

And of course, in your world, jurors would not be affected by the possible danger to themselves and their families if they delivered a not guilty verdict.

America, to you, is obviously a perfect place. To many others in the Western World, it is far from that.

I repeat my link posted above :

"it is the jury’s duty to prevent riots from happening, and to do that, they must convict Chauvin. In so doing, Chauvin will become the sacrificial lamb whose imprisonment will save the nation."
Do you honestly think an innocent man was convicted solely because the jury was afraid of the consequences? Do you honestly think there was no good reason for Chauvin to be convicted of anything? I think you're just tap dancing on stupid bullshit while ignoring the 400 pound gorilla in the room. An unauthorized technique applied for an unauthorized amount of time, followed by a complete and wanton disregard of the fact that the guy just died 3 minutes ago.

There probably would have been riots if there were an acquittal, because much like the jury, this country is full of people who have two eyes and a functioning brain.

The jury was instructed daily to not watch the news or talk to anyone about the case. The law assumes that they followed those court orders unless it can be shown that they didn't. You can't even prove that they knew about potential riots after acquittal, much less that their decision was affected by that in any way.
 
So you think that their supposed knowledge affected their view of the evidence. Jury Foreman: "Before we start, let me suggest that we better vote to convict the guy despite our real belief that he was obviously innocent, because there will be riots if we don't?" And what narrative did they buy into? The false evidence of their eyes, the lying testimony of medical experts and other cops? Or were those witnesses victimized by the same false narrative? Face facts: Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck and caused his death in violation of procedure, common sense and, the jury decided, the law. What's your narrative? Floyd would have died that day, at that precise time, anyway? The knee in the neck was just a coincidence?

It would seem that a bad faith reading of the other person's opinion is nearly a requirement for a dialog...or one would suppose from your response.

First, there is no "supposed" about it. All of us are aware of the prolonged rioting, arson, and violence initiated upon George Floyd's death, and the last year of threats and periodic violence there and elsewhere. Sequestering a jury over a few weeks (even if successful) does not wipe out the jury knowledge of the year of BLM rage and violence from their memory.

Second, your theatrical strawman quoting the presumed words of a jury foreman is a obvious strawman. None of us have speculated on what the foreman said or did not say, nor if anyone on the jury conversed about their fears. However, given the quick judgement and feckless examination of the evidence and the nuances of causality in the law, wrapped up in a mere 10 hrs., it is clear that consciously or unconsciously at least some of them didn't want to arrive at any conclusion that would expose them or the city to more arson and rioting.

Third, the narrative that they bought into after a year of incessantly emotional and violent messaging was that Chauvin was an appalling monster and implicit racist, and that is enough to punish him.

Four, I have no trouble facing facts, but I do have a problem believing narratives and social tropes that refuse to use the facts. For example you stated,

"Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck and caused his death in violation of procedure, common sense and, the jury decided, the law. What's your narrative? Floyd would have died that day, at that precise time, anyway? The knee in the neck was just a coincidence?".

Except that Chauvin mostly knelt on Floyd's back and shoulder area, and as the trial proceeded that became so clear the prosecution changed from saying "the neck" and referring to the placement as "neck area" rather than neck per se'. And while there was testimony that Chauvin should have put Floyd on his side after being in a facedown prone position, it is ambiguous as to exactly when that is supposed to occur when it is a matter of subjective judgement over mitigating reasons.

So no, my narrative is not that Floyd would have died that day. My narrative is that it is NOT beyond a reasonable doubt that he could have died from all the other major health threats Floyd had, in combination with his large (and potentially lethal) fentanyl level combined with the 20 minutes of his fighting and resisting to stay out of the police car. It is my narrative that he could have expired in the police car itself, as (I recall) he started complaining about his breathing at the conclusion of that struggle.

After reviewing the evidence, as well as some studies, it is clear that Floyd was a ticking time bomb for a stroke, heart attack, or arrhythmia. It is also clear that it is rare for anyone to die from being restrained face down, as the Canadian study demonstrated. And when there are conflicting peer studies on positional asphyxia even being a likely threat, then there is room for reasonable doubt about the whole thesis of the prosecution.

Finally, the greatest evidence of the indifference of the jury to fair application of the law is in their conviction for 2nd and 3rd degree murder. That simply does not fit the "proven" facts as had to be based on either fear or emotional animosity.
 
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Lol! Do you not realise that bragging like that actually makes you seem like someone lacking in self esteem?

Did you also know that you are one of several here that claim expert knowledge, whilst demonstrating that you actually know very little?
So tell me, what expert knowledge do you possess to be able to thumb your nose at anyone disagreeing with you?
 
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