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What the Derek Chauvin trial is focused on

It would seem that a bad faith reading of the other person's opinion is nearly a requirement for a dialog...or one would suppose from your response.

First, there is no "supposed" about it. All of us are aware of the prolonged rioting, arson, and violence initiated upon George Floyd's death, and the last year of threats and periodic violence there and elsewhere. Sequestering a jury over a few weeks (even if successful) does not wipe out the jury knowledge of the year of BLM rage and violence from their memory.

Second, your theatrical strawman quoting the presumed words of a jury foreman is a obvious strawman. None of us have speculated on what the foreman said or did not say, nor if anyone on the jury conversed about their fears. However, given the quick judgement and feckless examination of the evidence and the nuances of causality in the law, wrapped up in a mere 10 hrs., it is clear that consciously or unconsciously at least some of them didn't want to arrive at any conclusion that would expose them or the city to more arson and rioting.

Third, the narrative that they bought into after a year of incessantly emotional and violent messaging was that Chauvin was an appalling monster and implicit racist, and that is enough to punish him.

Four, I have no trouble facing facts, but I do have a problem believing narratives and social tropes that refuse to use the facts. For example you stated,

"Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck and caused his death in violation of procedure, common sense and, the jury decided, the law. What's your narrative? Floyd would have died that day, at that precise time, anyway? The knee in the neck was just a coincidence?".

Except that Chauvin mostly knelt on Floyd's back and shoulder area, and as the trial proceeded that became so clear the prosecution changed from saying "the neck" and referring to the placement as "neck area" rather than neck per se'. And while there was testimony that Chauvin should have put Floyd on his side after being in a facedown prone position, it is ambiguous as to exactly when that is supposed to occur when it is a matter of subjective judgement over mitigating reasons.

So no, my narrative is not that Floyd would have died that day. My narrative is that it is NOT beyond a reasonable doubt that he could have died from all the other major health threats Floyd had, in combination with his large (and potentially lethal) fentanyl level combined with the 20 minutes of his fighting and resisting to stay out of the police car. It is my narrative that he could have expired in the police car itself, as (I recall) he started complaining about his breathing at the conclusion of that struggle.

After reviewing the evidence, as well as some studies, it is clear that Floyd was a ticking time bomb for a stroke, heart attack, or arrhythmia. It is also clear that it is rare for anyone to die from being restrained face down, as the Canadian study demonstrated. And when there are conflicting peer studies on positional asphyxia even being a likely threat, then there is room for reasonable doubt about the whole thesis of the prosecution.

Finally, the greatest evidence of the indifference of the jury to fair application of the law is in their conviction for 2nd and 3rd degree murder. That simply does not fit the "proven" facts as had to be based on either fear or emotional animosity.
So the medical and police testimony is irrelevant? What Chavin did was dumb, brutal and violative of procedure. He and no one else was responsible for Floyd's death at that day and time. He held him down for over nine minutes. Would 18 min have been enough to convince you that Chauvin did something wrong? An hour? What would Chauvin have lost if he had let up a handcuffed man who said he couldn't breathe, there in the presence of several police officers with clubs, guns, perhaps mace, etc.

As to Floyd's bad health and him being at death's door, if a prison guard shoots a guy on death row it is still against the law. As to the jury's decision, perhaps one or more counts will be overturned on appeal. Good luck with that. Til then Chauvin is where he belongs. Floyd should have been so lucky.
 
TL;dr

I've posted the facts and links for you before.
Maxparrish obviously should have been a consultant for the defense. Chauvin was ill-served. Grounds for appeal.
 
Do you honestly think there was no good reason for Chauvin to be convicted of anything?

Lol! Someone hasn't a clue what I have posted.

I have never said that Chauvin is innocent of all charges.

Why post utter nonsense?
 
So tell me, what expert knowledge do you possess to be able to thumb your nose at anyone disagreeing with you?

One doesn't need to be an expert on anything to know that justice is often not done in the USA.

Ever heard of OJ Simpson?
 
American Justice :

Justine Damond : White Australian woman had her head blown off by black cop after calling police for help.

Verdict : Black cop found guilty of THIRD degree murder (eligible for parole after 6 years)

George Floyd : Drugged up convicted criminal, died whilst violently resisting arrest. Expert witnesses disagree over the cause of his death.

Verdict : White cop guilty of SECOND degree murder.
 
Chauvin was not convicted of a race-based murder.

Lol!

I think you need to ask all those in the media celebrating his conviction. Race was very obviously at the heart of this trial even if Chauvin was not charged directly with a race based crime.

Only a true bigot would claim that race and threats of violence have not been prominent in the environment in which this trial took place :

"There is cause for concern about whether Chauvin received a fair trial, an issue that is separate from the strength of the evidence, and one that the trial judge, Peter Cahill, acknowledged just after the jury retired to begin deliberating late Monday afternoon. By then, the notoriously irresponsible congresswoman, Maxine Waters, had threatened unrest unless the jury returned a verdict of “guilty, guilty, guilty.” President Biden, who scorched his predecessor for unhinged commentary about pending cases, piled on Tuesday, observing that he was “praying” for a conviction."

 
American Justice :

Justine Damond : White Australian woman had her head blown off by black cop after calling police for help.

Verdict : Black cop found guilty of THIRD degree murder (eligible for parole after 6 years)

George Floyd : Drugged up convicted criminal, died whilst violently resisting arrest. Expert witnesses disagree over the cause of his death.

Verdict : White cop guilty of SECOND degree murder.
Different cases, different circumstances, different results. Third was better than nothing, which was the alternative for Noor. Second was never on the table.
 
Different cases, different circumstances, different results.

Exactly.

In the Damond case there were no threats of cities burning. No mobs outside the Court.

No President "praying" for a conviction.

And of course, Damond was white and Floyd was black.
 
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One doesn't need to be an expert on anything to know that justice is often not done in the USA.

Ever heard of OJ Simpson?
Sure, but explain how Chauven's case was an act of injustice. Also if you're gonna disagree with law enforcement and defensive tactics experts on this case, at least give me something to believe some guy on the internet vs the dozen experts who testified and the opinion of many law enforcement and defensive tactics professionals who say that Chauven was out of bounds.
 
Lol! Someone hasn't a clue what I have posted.

I have never said that Chauvin is innocent of all charges.

Why post utter nonsense?
Please, I've read what you posted and you've been all over this thread insisting that Chauvin didn't get a fair trial because of "mob rule". If that doesn't mean you think Chauvin was unjustly convicted then what the hell is your point?

It was obvious that there was substantial "reasonable doubt". But there was never going to be any other verdict.

In this case, the jurors and many other Americans feared for their lives and property if they delivered any other verdict than second degree murder.

you don't seem to have the intelligence to realise is that it is this threat of "mob justice" that produced the result in the OJ trial, and now this one.

So, basically, it is the jury’s duty to prevent riots from happening, and to do that, they must convict Chauvin.
 
Sure, but explain how Chauven's case was an act of injustice. Also if you're gonna disagree with law enforcement and defensive tactics experts on this case, at least give me something to believe some guy on the internet vs the dozen experts who testified and the opinion of many law enforcement and defensive tactics professionals who say that Chauven was out of bounds.
Doesn't matter. Some folks would look at a cop jumping up and down on Floyd's head screaming "die, nigger, die," and still think it good police work.
 
Different cases, different circumstances, different results. Third was better than nothing, which was the alternative for Noor. Second was never on the table
American Justice :

Justine Damond : White Australian woman had her head blown off by black cop after calling police for help.

Verdict : Black cop found guilty of THIRD degree murder (eligible for parole after 6 years)

George Floyd : Drugged up convicted criminal, died whilst violently resisting arrest. Expert witnesses disagree over the cause of his death.

Verdict : White cop guilty of SECOND degree murder.
You nailed it for the defense again, Ginza: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you saw incontrovertible evidence of George Floyd violently resisting arrest by claiming he couldn't breathe. My client Mr. Chauvin did what any reasonable person would have done: he stayed on the violent criminal Floyd's neck, increasing the pressure by raising his foot off the ground. Thus he was able to end Floyd's violent resistance and discourage his foolish claims about breathing."
 
You nailed it for the defense again, Ginza: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you saw incontrovertible evidence of George Floyd violently resisting arrest by claiming he couldn't breathe. My client Mr. Chauvin did what any reasonable person would have done: he stayed on the violent criminal Floyd's neck, increasing the pressure by raising his foot off the ground. Thus he was able to end Floyd's violent resistance and discourage his foolish claims about breathing."
LOL! "Not only that, but Floyd was fighting the officers so violently that he smashed his own face into the road. He was still kicking at officers even after the prosecution claims he passed out. And what the heck is an anoxic seizure anyway? Sounds like a buncha cupcake liberal intellectual bullshit to me. If you smell the bullshit, you must acquit!"
 
Chauvin could not possibly receive a fair trial in the environment in which the trial took place.

"The charges were brought in an atmosphere of mob justice"

"Chauvin was repeatedly declared guilty of murder by Minnesota governor Tim Walz, Minnesota attorney general and former Nation of Islam race hustler Keith Ellison and other local authorities in press conferences"

"Any reasonable observer might question whether Derek Chauvin could receive, or did receive, a fair trial"



How fair was the Derek Chauvin trial? | The Spectator Australia


spectator.com.au
spectator.com.au

"Was the jury unduly biased by reckless politicians like Maxine Waters and Joe Biden?"

"Was this truly a fair trial?"

"the trial of Derek Chauvin is an indictment of the entire political left which has attempted to persuade and influence the jury into arriving at an outcome it desperately wants."



Did Derek Chauvin Get a Fair Trial? - The Charlie Kirk Show - Omny.fm


"HOW CAN ANYONE SAY DEREK CHAUVIN GOT A FAIR TRIAL?"​


"This looked too much like a lynching."

No Cookies | Herald Sun

Breaking News from Melbourne and Victoria | Herald Sun
www.heraldsun.com.au
www.heraldsun.com.au
 
It was fair. If it wasn't, it will be sorted out in it's time in appeals.
 
you saw incontrovertible evidence of George Floyd violently resisting arrest by claiming he couldn't breathe.

Not a very intelligent response.

Did you not see Floyd assaulting the officers?

Surely you know that you can't call out if you can't breathe?

Lol!
 
Please, I've read what you posted and you've been all over this thread insisting that Chauvin didn't get a fair trial because of "mob rule". If that doesn't mean you think Chauvin was unjustly convicted then what the hell is your point?

Wow! Are you not able to understand that being given a fair trial is a right.....whether you are ultimately convicted or not?

I wonder how many of the jurors shared your level of understanding.
 
You Americans sure live in a troubled country.

Right wingers attacking government buildings.

Left wingers looting and pillaging cities and even killing innocent policemen (obviously you hear very little about the policemen murdered...no mobs, no media frenzy)

Your country has a murder rate of roughly FIVE times that of most other Western Nations.

And yet you still demonise your own policemen and many of you want the police force defunded.

Surely it is your communities that need correction more than your police?

There will always be policemen who stuff up. When they stuff up in arresting a violent criminal, is there always going to be riots and protests and a virtual lynch mob outside the Court House?

Maybe if you had the sense not to elect an ego-maniac or a virtually senile geriatric who can't put two sentences together, you would be better off.
 
Not a very intelligent response.

Did you not see Floyd assaulting the officers?

Surely you know that you can't call out if you can't breathe?

Lol!
Ok, he was out of line. So was the officer, according to the officer's peers and his boss. Chauvin killed Floyd, after Floyd was handcuffed behind his back and face down on the street. Chauvin blew it: morally, procedurally, and legally.

That breathing issue was addressed. You can call out if you are having trouble breathing.

Btw, how would you have voted if on the jury?
 
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Wow! Are you not able to understand that being given a fair trial is a right.....whether you are ultimately convicted or not?

I wonder how many of the jurors shared your level of understanding.
Not in this country evidently. Well only if you have millions of protestors. For those without millions of protesters Sorry Charlie.
 
I wonder if there is any other nation around the world where the President has said he is "praying for a conviction" thus placing enormous pressure on the jurors.

I understand that he didn't want American cities to go up in flames. (that wouldn't look good on his resume).....but Biden has obviously no respect for "due process".

The man, like your previous leader, is an embarrassment to your country.
 
I wonder if there is any other nation around the world where the President has said he is "praying for a conviction" thus placing enormous pressure on the jurors.

I understand that he didn't want American cities to go up in flames. (that wouldn't look good on his resume).....but Biden has obviously no respective for "due process".

The man, like your previous leader, is an embarrassment to your country.

Unfortunately, Presidents are part of the mob. Joe has always been an artist at fake piety, even the onset of some form of dementia hasn't changed that.
 
You can call out if you are having trouble breathing.

But you can't call out of you can't breathe at all....as Floyd claimed.

Do you not understand the difference?
 
How another country dealt with a very similar incident :

An Australian man (Ben Batterham) chased down an intruder into his house (Ricky Slater).

Slater was a criminal and was on drugs at the time. He repeatedly shouted out that he couldn't breathe...as is common when many crinimals are apprehended these days.

Batterham lay on Slater until police arrived. Slater later died in hospital.

Batterham was charged with murder and manslaughter.

Australian medical experts agreed that it was impossible to say exactly what called Slaters death due to him being drugged up.

A reasonable person cannot be expected to know that a person that they are about to apprehend has a heart weakened by drug use.


Batterham was found not guilty and released.

Of course, in Australia there were no mobs threatening violence if the Court didn't return a guilty verdict.

There was no President praying for a conviction. No local and national politicians calling for a conviction.

Both my father and brother are/were ex policemen so I followed the Batterham trial with interest.

I also followed the Chauvin trial but did not expect him to be found not guilty. I have watched the OJ trial and know that justice is often not done in the USA....especially where mobs threatening violence gather outside the Courthouse.
 
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So the medical and police testimony is irrelevant? What Chavin did was dumb, brutal and violative of procedure. He and no one else was responsible for Floyd's death at that day and time. He held him down for over nine minutes. Would 18 min have been enough to convince you that Chauvin did something wrong? An hour? What would Chauvin have lost if he had let up a handcuffed man who said he couldn't breathe, there in the presence of several police officers with clubs, guns, perhaps mace, etc.

As to Floyd's bad health and him being at death's door, if a prison guard shoots a guy on death row it is still against the law. As to the jury's decision, perhaps one or more counts will be overturned on appeal. Good luck with that. Til then Chauvin is where he belongs. Floyd should have been so lucky.

The medical community is not irrelevant, they are very relevant when they are motivated by objective findings and without political or ego interests. However, from the outset, there was no basis in the ME report to know the cause of death or call it a homicide. NONE.

So it is essential that every "opinion" be backed by scientific derived findings and scientific peer reviewed literature. Any "expert" that puts his ass on the stand to give an unsupported opinion is of limited value to me because their are so many biased folks salivating at the opportunity for exposure on a national basis and to look like the good guys.

And there is a difference between Chauvin possibly doing something wrong (such as excessive force) and his actually being the substantial cause of Floyd's death. This isn't a case of someone shooting a prisoner and killing him because we have no idea if Chauvin applied (or could apply) lethal force. It is always possible that the prone position played a role but its absolutely impossible to know if that role was the substantial cause or not.

If Chauvin were guilty of anything it would be excessive force, although I find that probable but not beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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