What should the US do with Ukraine?

[Masterhawk]

As you might already know, Russian troops have invaded Ukraine. Although the Kremlin never officially declared war, troops are moving northwards from Crimea and southward from Belarus (which is siding with Russia).

Map of the conflict as of Feb 25 2022

Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Biden Administration has implemented sanctions against Russia in response. However, he has not sent troops, nor does he plan to do so.

What do you think the US should do?

 

[AmNat]

As you might already know, Russian troops have invaded Ukraine. Although the Kremlin never officially declared war, troops are moving northwards from Crimea and southward from Belarus (which is siding with Russia).

Map of the conflict as of Feb 25 2022

Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Biden Administration has implemented sanctions against Russia in response. However, he has not sent troops, nor does he plan to do so.

What do you think the US should do?

Nothing. Why should we care who rules Ukraine?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I want us as an international community to **** them so hard economically that they wish they had the economic trade and cooperation that North Korea has. Russia has a GDP the size of Nigeria, its #57th in the world. Economically it's a tiny country with few relevant exports other than gas and grain, which can all be sourced elsewhere over time.

No international banking, no SWIFT, an embargo on integrated circuits, kick them out of any international organizations, etc. etc. etc. We can't just let them get away with this without massive consequences that are worse than what they gained.

Nothing. Why should we care who rules Ukraine?

The Russian troll farms are getting lazier and lazier. We all saw you in the other threads praising Putin and Russia, nice try comprade, there is no "we" with you and America.

 

[Ug make hammer]

What do you think the US should do?

Post in the right thread, for starters.

 

[Bucky]

Nothing. Why should we care who rules Ukraine?

Agreed.

NATO and the United Stated crossed a red line by trying to get Ukraine into NATO. We pushed past the red line Putin set and got burned, badly.

Putin is not a good guy, but he is not a madman. He is an extremely rational actor.

I am so sick of the Democrats/Neocons trying to push us into another quagmire. Do you know how to spot a Neocon? If you make any points of understanding for the other side you get accused of being unpatriotic and a traitor to your country.

Maybe we should understand what Russia wants. They are not crazy.

This is not anything new. The United States didn't send troops to Georgia in 2008 or Crimea in 2014.

The United States needs to be focusing on being energy-dependent. Why on earth do we import over 250 barrels of oil from Russia every year?

 

[Bucky]

I want us as an international community to **** them so hard economically that they wish they had the economic trade and cooperation that North Korea has. Russia has a GDP the size of Nigeria, its #57th in the world. Economically it's a tiny country with few relevant exports other than gas and grain, which can all be sourced elsewhere over time.

No international banking, no SWIFT, an embargo on integrated circuits, kick them out of any international organizations, etc. etc. etc. We can't just let them get away with this without massive consequences that are worse than what they gained.


The Russian troll farms are getting lazier and lazier. We all saw you in the other threads praising Putin and Russia, nice try comprade, there is no "we" with you and America.

Russia still sends the U.S oil lol.

 

[Bucky]

As you might already know, Russian troops have invaded Ukraine. Although the Kremlin never officially declared war, troops are moving northwards from Crimea and southward from Belarus (which is siding with Russia).

Map of the conflict as of Feb 25 2022

Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Biden Administration has implemented sanctions against Russia in response. However, he has not sent troops, nor does he plan to do so.

What do you think the US should do?

“Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin),” William J. Burns, then U.S. ambassador to Russia and current CIA director, cabled from Moscow in 2008. “I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/23/ukraine-taiwan-red-lines/

We do nothing to prevent WW3.

 

[Gatsby]

As you might already know, Russian troops have invaded Ukraine. Although the Kremlin never officially declared war, troops are moving northwards from Crimea and southward from Belarus (which is siding with Russia).

Map of the conflict as of Feb 25 2022

Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Biden Administration has implemented sanctions against Russia in response. However, he has not sent troops, nor does he plan to do so.

What do you think the US should do?

Extremely heavy sanctions on Russia and Belarus, effective immediately. Seize assets belonging to oligarchs. Sanction the oil sector.

If Europeans won't go along with gas sanctions in the middle of winter, fine. Wait until mid-April and if Russia is still in Ukraine and/or has replaced the government with a puppet state, sanction the natural gas sector then.

Cut Russia and Belarus off from Western technology. Heavy export controls on anything heading to Russia or Belarus. That also includes Russian-occupied frozen conflict zones like Crimea, Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and whatever pieces of Ukraine they happen to control at the moment.

Massive cyberattacks on Russian infrastructure. Shut off their cities' power grids, one at a time, to maximize the appearance of incompetence. Hack into their metro systems and **** with them. Steal as much money from their banks as possible. Try to crash the ruble. If they escalate, cut them off from SWIFT.

Make regime change in Belarus the official policy of the US government. Support pro-democracy activists in Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine.

Offer Finland and Sweden membership in NATO, if they want it.

Brain drain the shit out of Russia. Offer a green card to any Russian citizen who has a bachelor's degree in a STEM field and who can pass a background check. (Yes, that will be millions of people. Yes, I am OK with that.)

 

[Gatsby]

NATO and the United Stated crossed a red line by trying to get Ukraine into NATO.

Maybe Russia's neighbors wouldn't try to seek mutual defense security guarantees from other countries if Russia wasn't in the habit of invading them.

 

[Bucky]

Maybe Russia's neighbors wouldn't try to seek mutual defense security guarantees from other countries if Russia wasn't in the habit of invading them.

Imagine if Canada or Mexico tried to get into the Warsaw Pact. Do you think the United States would have done nothing?

 

[Gatsby]

Imagine if Canada or Mexico tried to get into the Warsaw Pact. Do you the United States would do nothing about that?

The Warsaw Pact hasn't existed for over 30 years. But if Canada or Mexico wanted a security guarantee from America's enemies, that would cause me to question why they felt so threatened by the United States.

 

[AmNat]

The Warsaw Pact hasn't existed for over 30 years. But if Canada or Mexico wanted a security guarantee from America's enemies, that would cause me to question why they felt so threatened by the United States.

USG actually has invaded both Canada and Mexico. It hasn't done so recently because they've both been pliant satellite states for as long as any living person can remember.

 

[MamboDervish]

What should the US do with Ukraine?​

Exactly what we're doing.

 

[Gatsby]

USG actually has invaded both Canada and Mexico. It hasn't done so recently because they've both been pliant satellite states for as long as any living person can remember.

Because Canada and Mexico are both liberal democracies governed by sensible people who aren't worried America in 2022 is going to attack them because it did in the 1810s or 1840s.

Whereas Russia has been invading its neighbors since forever.

 

[AmNat]

Because Canada and Mexico are both liberal democracies ruled by sensible people who aren't worried America in 2022 is going to attack them because it did in the 1810s or 1840s.

That's what I said. Canada and Mexico used to be genuinely independent (of Washington anyway) so USG naturally had issues with them from time to time. There is no longer any conflict because there is no longer any sovereignty on their part. It's similar to the reason Russia will never "invade" Belarus.

 

[Gatsby]

That's what I said. Canada and Mexico used to be genuinely independent (of Washington anyway) so USG naturally had issues with them from time to time. There is no longer any conflict because there is no longer any sovereignty on their part. It's similar to the reason Russia will never "invade" Belarus.

That is an absurd comparison. Canada and Mexico are both democracies that can pursue their own foreign policy agendas. They can and often do have interests that conflict with America's. Whereas Belarus is a brutal dictatorship propped up by the Russian security apparatus, and at the moment is wholly occupied by the Russian army.

 

[AmNat]

That is an absurd comparison. Canada and Mexico are both democracies that can pursue their own foreign policy agendas. They can and often do have interests that conflict with America's.

Canada and Mexico are not democracies. They, like USG, are governed by bureaucracies which are immune by design to democratic control. And neither of them has the slightest ability to dissent from USG's point of view on any real issue. I think Canada may have some theoretical disagreements with USG regarding an impassable straight somewhere; Belarus has similar fictitious conflicts with the Kremlin.

Whereas Belarus is a brutal dictatorship propped up by the Russian security apparatus, and at the moment is wholly occupied by the Russian army.

Pure happenstance. Canada would also find itself "occupied" if a war were to be fought in Alaska or Greenland.

 

[phoenix2020]

What do you think the US should do?

Establish strategic relationships with India, Brazil, and as many other high population democracies as possible.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I want us as an international community to **** them so hard economically that they wish they had the economic trade and cooperation that North Korea has. Russia has a GDP the size of Nigeria, its #57th in the world. Economically it's a tiny country with few relevant exports other than gas and grain, which can all be sourced elsewhere over time.

No international banking, no SWIFT, an embargo on integrated circuits, kick them out of any international organizations, etc. etc. etc. We can't just let them get away with this without massive consequences that are worse than what they gained.


The Russian troll farms are getting lazier and lazier. We all saw you in the other threads praising Putin and Russia, nice try comprade, there is no "we" with you and America.

Yeah, too bad Germany is not on board with the swift idea. And in any event your idea is really stupid because 1) Russia makes a crap ton of Gas and grain and it’s a producer too big to ignore.
2) the size of the economy is not terribly relevant, most of our “economy” is the measurement of GDP which is highly inflated because it includes government spending and the largess of globohomo. If the dollar wasn’t the reserve currency our economy likely wouldn’t be much bigger then Russia.

Which brings us to 3.

3) if we keep arbitrarily using dollar diplomacy to sanction countries, well first off economic sanctions almost never work for US foreign policy, but more broadly, as we arbitrarily use dollar diplomacy to sanction more nations and especially big ones like Russia, you’re only incentivizing nations not tightly aligned with globohomo to develop alternative currency exchanges and stock other foreign currencies, as this occurs the dollar loses relevance and eventually will cause a massive economic crash in America as without foreign countries buying American debt in dollars our national debt will cause America to start following the path of Argentina.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

That is an absurd comparison. Canada and Mexico are both democracies that can pursue their own foreign policy agendas. They can and often do have interests that conflict with America's. Whereas Belarus is a brutal dictatorship propped up by the Russian security apparatus, and at the moment is wholly occupied by the Russian army.

The vast majority of Mexicans supported Mexico’s laws making abortion a crime and then Mexico’s courts, dominated by elites educated by left wing western interests declared abortion a “human right” that oddly enough the majority of humans in Mexico do not consider a right.

Does that sound Democratic to you?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Extremely heavy sanctions on Russia and Belarus, effective immediately. Seize assets belonging to oligarchs. Sanction the oil sector.

If Europeans won't go along with gas sanctions in the middle of winter, fine. Wait until mid-April and if Russia is still in Ukraine and/or has replaced the government with a puppet state, sanction the natural gas sector then.

Cut Russia and Belarus off from Western technology. Heavy export controls on anything heading to Russia or Belarus. That also includes Russian-occupied frozen conflict zones like Crimea, Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and whatever pieces of Ukraine they happen to control at the moment.

Massive cyberattacks on Russian infrastructure. Shut off their cities' power grids, one at a time, to maximize the appearance of incompetence. Hack into their metro systems and **** with them. Steal as much money from their banks as possible. Try to crash the ruble. If they escalate, cut them off from SWIFT.

Make regime change in Belarus the official policy of the US government. Support pro-democracy activists in Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine.

Offer Finland and Sweden membership in NATO, if they want it.

Brain drain the shit out of Russia. Offer a green card to any Russian citizen who has a bachelor's degree in a STEM field and who can pass a background check. (Yes, that will be millions of people. Yes, I am OK with that.)

I am not ok with bringing in foreign competition for American workers. If you offer green cards for Russians they’re just going to come here and make life worse for born Americans and the salaries they make here will be remitted to Russia. Just like the salaries of every immigrant group.

Although Russians are superior to Somalis and Haitians as an immigrant group, still no, close the borders except for close family members of those already here.

 

[Monica33]

Nothing. Why should we care who rules Ukraine?

Hardly the point .

It is that we should all ensure as far as possible that Ukraine is ruled by those it chooses to rule .

That is, the Rule of Law should operate .
The Zeitgeist is that a combination of neo Nazis manipulated by Oligarchs paying obligations to the US is no longer wanted .

Let us hope that this comparatively calm change so far is best handled by Russia for the benefit of Ukrainians . Putin cannot be worse than the Biden and Pelosi Crime Families plus Obama and the Clintons using it as their money laundering playground .

 

[Gatsby]

The vast majority of Mexicans supported Mexico’s laws making abortion a crime and then Mexico’s courts, dominated by elites educated by left wing western interests declared abortion a “human right” that oddly enough the majority of humans in Mexico do not consider a right.

Does that sound Democratic to you?

I can't even begin to tell you how uninterested I am in your petty culture war squabbles with a foreign government. If Mexicans don't like what their courts are doing, I assume they have constitutional, democratic ways of rectifying that situation just as America does. Now can we get back to the subject at hand?

 

[AmNat]

Now can we get back to the subject at hand?

If you did not consider Mexico's form of government relevant then you shouldn't have brought it up. If you're going to make false assertions such as that Mexico is a democracy you should expect people to offer counterexamples.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I can't even begin to tell you how uninterested I am in your petty culture war squabbles with a foreign government. If Mexicans don't like what their courts are doing, I assume they have constitutional, democratic ways of rectifying that situation just as America does. Now can we get back to the subject at hand?

That’s not true. Name one single decision of the US Supreme Court overturned by democratic means.

“Subject at hand”? Lol you’re the one who chose to go off describing Mexico as a “liberal democracy” to support a conclusion. That was a premise in an argument.

If your premise is wrong then it doesn’t support your conclusion. So if you think it’s irrelevant then don’t premise an argument on the contention