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What Should the goal(s) of our Penal system be?

What should the goal of our penal system be?

  • Rehabilitation (try to turn every criminal into a member of society)

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Punishment (revenge for wrongs committed)

    Votes: 2 8.3%
  • Rehabilitation and protection of society (REAL life sentences for those deemed un-rehabilitable)

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • Punishment, and rehabilitation if possible (main focus on the victims and their sense of closure)

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • Rehabilitation, punishment and the protection of society

    Votes: 10 41.7%

  • Total voters
    24

jamesrage

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Re: What [b]Should[/b] the goal(s) of our Penal system be?

Stace said:
Well, gee, if you're going to ask someone else what THEY know about Christianity, why don't you share with us what YOU know?


Jesus did not come here to give everyone a free pass to keep sinning.Repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand.Saying I'm sorry because I got caught for commiting a crime and do not want the death penalty is not what Jesus ment by asking for forgiveness.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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Re: What [b]Should[/b] the goal(s) of our Penal system be?

jamesrage said:
Jesus did not come here to give everyone a free pass to keep sinning.Repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand.Saying I'm sorry because I got caught for commiting a crime and do not want the death penalty is not what Jesus ment by asking for forgiveness.


Well, I've been exposed to at least four schools of thought on this.

There's the "Once Saved, Always Saved" notion, in which once you accept salvation from Jesus, you've got a get out of hell free card for life. Totally absurd, of course.

There's the "Saved On Your Last Dying Breath" notion, which argues that even Hitler would be forgiven by God, if Adolph had asked for it sometime between when he pulled the trigger and the bullet ripped through his brain. This is a perennial favorite on Death Rows around the country.

There's the Catholic "You're Not Saved if the Priest Doesn't Say You've Worked Hard Enough" route. Salvation on this road is apparently a function of how much money you die with. If you give a lot to the Church, you're in.

And there's the Protestant "You're Saved For Now, But You Gotta Keep Being Good Or You'll Burn in HELL!" salvation, which also usually involves some monetary or labor payoff.

Then there's my school, which is the "I Ain't Guilty, So Screw It" school of emotional freedom.
 

jamesrage

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Re: What [b]Should[/b] the goal(s) of our Penal system be?

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Well, I've been exposed to at least four schools of thought on this.

There's the "Once Saved, Always Saved" notion, in which once you accept salvation from Jesus, you've got a get out of hell free card for life. Totally absurd, of course.

It seems to be the docterine that many fakes subscribe to.Jesus died for your sins not so you can keep sinning.

There's the "Saved On Your Last Dying Breath" notion, which argues that even Hitler would be forgiven by God, if Adolph had asked for it sometime between when he pulled the trigger and the bullet ripped through his brain. This is a perennial favorite on Death Rows around the country.


This is also aburd because you have to have remorse for what you did so asking forgiveness at the last minute to avoid hell is not being remorseful.
.


There's the Catholic "You're Not Saved if the Priest Doesn't Say You've Worked Hard Enough" route. Salvation on this road is apparently a function of how much money you die with. If you give a lot to the Church, you're in.

Catholitism just seems to be a rip off of true christianity with a touch of greek and roman mythology.

And there's the Protestant "You're Saved For Now, But You Gotta Keep Being Good Or You'll Burn in HELL!"

This is the right one.But you must ask forgiveness for your sin and really seek forgiveness because you felt that you were wrong and not because you might be facing some punishment.You must also repent and refrain from sinning.


salvation, which also usually involves some monetary or labor payoff.

I noticed that usually involves the people who fall for the conartist known as televangilist.


Then there's my school, which is the "I Ain't Guilty, So Screw It" school of emotional freedom.


I have never heard of that one.Although some fake christians do try to deny what is and is not a sin by claiming that it "is cultural contex at the time that the commandments were written and do not apply to today's standards".Other fakes try to say that "Paul was a extreamist and try to discredit him" or that "the pharasiehs altered the bible" or that the beleave the bible is written based on a inspiration for one's beleave that they had in a god and not actual commandments/instructions/accounts from God/Jehova and the phrophets.Some fakes try to grossly misinterprete the bible.
The fakes do all these things so that they do not have own up to sinning and so that they can fool others and drag other people down with them.
 

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Revenge is a personal matter. Criminals should be locked away for the protection of society, not because it makes us feel better about ourselves.
 

Billo_Really

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If you want to reduce crime in America, stop making so many god-damn laws!
In addition, stop locking people up for victimless crimes.
 

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Billo_Really said:
If you want to reduce crime in America, stop making so many god-damn laws!
.

That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard, actually that is the second most retarded thing.The most retarded thing I have ever heard was"if we get more police then there would be more arrest of crimnals and our city's crime rate would go up" those words were utered by the mayor of my city.

In addition, stop locking people up for victimless crimes

Yeah I want more degenerates walking around,whole government offices ddicated to keeping these degenerates in control and not spreading some desease and junkies going around pretending to be vicitms.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Jamesrage:
Yeah I want more degenerates walking around,whole government offices ddicated to keeping these degenerates in control and not spreading some desease and junkies going around pretending to be vicitms.
It's supposed to be a free country Jimmyboy. You want to put casual pot smokers in with hardened criminals. What kind of society is that going to create?
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Jamesrage:
That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard, actually that is the second most retarded thing.The most retarded thing I have ever heard was"if we get more police then there would be more arrest of crimnals and our city's crime rate would go up" those words were utered by the mayor of my city.
Oh is it now. You act like all laws are good and noble. Kind of like the 'eminant domain' law. That's in our interest, isn't it?
 

jamesrage

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Billo_Really said:
It's supposed to be a free country Jimmyboy. You want to put casual pot smokers in with hardened criminals.

They know it is illegal,Drugs damage the mind.

What kind of society is that going to create?

A society were I and many other tax payers do not pay for health and finiancial problems that certian indivuals have caused themselves because they wanted to smoke weed.
 

jamesrage

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Billo_Really said:
Oh is it now. You act like all laws are good and noble. Kind of like the 'eminant domain' law. That's in our interest, isn't it?

Eminant domain is okay for roads,pulbic schools and certian types of municipal structures.Eminant domain shold not be used so some university can build a sports complex or to hand property over to businessmen.
 

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Originally posted by Jamesrage:
They know it is illegal,Drugs damage the mind.
Oh yeah, I smoked pot every day for 20 straight years and I'm as sharp as a............uh........ give me a minute............... um............. oh, yes........... tack!
 

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Pot frys brain cells and like beer leads to hard liquor pot leads to hard drugs..................
 

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Bill's got a point...the primary reason rehabilitation is failing is because of how overcrowded the system is. Get rid of the people who aren't dangers to society and who shouldn't even be there in the first place (aka druggies). If you want to get stoned and kill yourself, be my guest. But don't waste my tax dollars imprisoning such people.

And better rehabilitation=less reoffenses=better prison system
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Hornburger:
Bill's got a point...the primary reason rehabilitation is failing is because of how overcrowded the system is. Get rid of the people who aren't dangers to society and who shouldn't even be there in the first place (aka druggies). If you want to get stoned and kill yourself, be my guest. But don't waste my tax dollars imprisoning such people.

And better rehabilitation=less reoffenses=better prison system
That's exactly right. Drugs is a medical problem, not a criminal one.
 

jamesrage

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Billo_Really said:
That's exactly right. Drugs is a medical problem, not a criminal one.

A medical problem that I did not create and nor do I want to pay for with my tax dollars.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Jamesrage:
A medical problem that I did not create and nor do I want to pay for with my tax dollars.
I won't argue with you there.
 

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Re: What [b]Should[/b] the goal(s) of our Penal system be?

Conflict said:
Reform, never punishment.

Rehabilitation trumps vindication.

Let's count how many so called "christians" disagree with this.....

counter on

Well, I am by no means a good christian, but I do believe in God and I am opposed to the death penalty. I also vote for rehabilitation where possible.
 

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jamesrage said:
A medical problem that I did not create and nor do I want to pay for with my tax dollars.

I would like to quote an author Alan Elsner from his book "Gates of Injustice":

"Robert, a Vietnam veteran with a drugs habit, was arrested in Washington, D.C., in a police sting in 1984 with marijuana and PCP in his pocket. At the time, he was working as a junior auditor for the IRS and supportinga son and daughter. He described himself as a recreational user. "I wasn't a junkie. I had it under control. I wasn't hurting no one." he said. The judge wasn't impressed. He sentenced Robert to 4 to 16 years in prison. If he had behaved himself behind bars and stayed clean after his release, Robert could have been done with his sentence relatively quickly and gone on with his life. That's not the way things turned out.

Behind bars, Robert did behave well. He was an education aide, helping fellow inmates to get their GED high school equivalency certificates and also worked as a control room cleark. After five years, he was released on parole. But Robert had not kicked his habit in prison and soon resumed using drugs. He found a job but failed to report regularly to his parole officer. In 1994, he was sent back to prison for violating the terms of his parole. Three years later, he was released again; this time he stayed out for seven months before failing a drugs test. Back he went. In November 1999, Robert emerged yet again but was free for less than two months before a dirty urine test sent him back once more. When I met him in March 2000, Robert was living at a halfway house in Washington D.C., where we was closely supervised and regularly tested for drugs. He had a clerical job that paid $8.75 an hour and was due to move in with his sister six weeks later. He was full of good intentions. "I'm 46 years old. I'm getting too old for this. I want to stay out this time. Since 1984, I have spent 11 years in prison and five years outside, all for one drugs conviction. I have lost my family. I have not been a father to my children. I want to get my own place and take care of myself. I call it regaining responsibility over my life," he told me.

I intended to write a series of article about Robert, hoping to follow his progress over the following months as he tried to reubild his life. But the series never materialized. Two weeks after I met him, Robert failed a drugs test yet again and he was sent back to prison. He broke off contact and refused to talk to me again. His story, which is all too typical, raised serious issues. Robert had committed one drugs possession offense, for which he had served 11 years in prison and counting. Yes, he was an addict with a harmful habit. But he had never committed a violent offense, he was never a big time or even a small time dealer, he was never connected to a gang. Who was he hurting other than himself? Did society get its money worth for the many thousands of dollars spent on his incarceration? Or might there have been a better way?

Robert's case illustrates the dilemma facing the 600,000 prisoners being released from the U.S. prisons every year. Many emerge angry and bitter and even less well equipped to lead an honest life than they were before. As we have seen, drugs are widely availabe behind bars. According to the Office of National Drug Control Policy, 70 to 85 percent of state prison inmates need substance abuse assistance, but only 13 percent receive treatment in prison. A California study found that half of those released from the state's prisons were functionally illiterate. Joan Petersilia, a criminologist with the University of California, Irvine, has studied the lives of parolees. 'They remain largely uneducated, unskilled, and usually without solid family support systems and now they bear the added burdens of a prison record and the distrust and fear that inevitably results. Not surprisingly, most parolees do not succeed, and failure occurs rather quickly: re-arrests are most common in the first six months after release.' she wrote."
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Timmyboy:
I would like to quote an author Alan Elsner from his book "Gates of Injustice":

"Robert, a Vietnam veteran with a drugs habit, was arrested in Washington, D.C., in a police sting in 1984 with marijuana and PCP in his pocket. At the time, he was working as a junior auditor for the IRS and supportinga son and daughter. He described himself as a recreational user. "I wasn't a junkie. I had it under control. I wasn't hurting no one." he said. The judge wasn't impressed. He sentenced Robert to 4 to 16 years in prison. If he had behaved himself behind bars and stayed clean after his release, Robert could have been done with his sentence relatively quickly and gone on with his life. That's not the way things turned out.

Behind bars, Robert did behave well. He was an education aide, helping fellow inmates to get their GED high school equivalency certificates and also worked as a control room cleark. After five years, he was released on parole. But Robert had not kicked his habit in prison and soon resumed using drugs. He found a job but failed to report regularly to his parole officer. In 1994, he was sent back to prison for violating the terms of his parole. Three years later, he was released again; this time he stayed out for seven months before failing a drugs test. Back he went. In November 1999, Robert emerged yet again but was free for less than two months before a dirty urine test sent him back once more. When I met him in March 2000, Robert was living at a halfway house in Washington D.C., where we was closely supervised and regularly tested for drugs. He had a clerical job that paid $8.75 an hour and was due to move in with his sister six weeks later. He was full of good intentions. "I'm 46 years old. I'm getting too old for this. I want to stay out this time. Since 1984, I have spent 11 years in prison and five years outside, all for one drugs conviction. I have lost my family. I have not been a father to my children. I want to get my own place and take care of myself. I call it regaining responsibility over my life," he told me.

I intended to write a series of article about Robert, hoping to follow his progress over the following months as he tried to reubild his life. But the series never materialized. Two weeks after I met him, Robert failed a drugs test yet again and he was sent back to prison. He broke off contact and refused to talk to me again. His story, which is all too typical, raised serious issues. Robert had committed one drugs possession offense, for which he had served 11 years in prison and counting. Yes, he was an addict with a harmful habit. But he had never committed a violent offense, he was never a big time or even a small time dealer, he was never connected to a gang. Who was he hurting other than himself? Did society get its money worth for the many thousands of dollars spent on his incarceration? Or might there have been a better way?

Robert's case illustrates the dilemma facing the 600,000 prisoners being released from the U.S. prisons every year. Many emerge angry and bitter and even less well equipped to lead an honest life than they were before. As we have seen, drugs are widely availabe behind bars. According to the Office of National Drug Control Policy, 70 to 85 percent of state prison inmates need substance abuse assistance, but only 13 percent receive treatment in prison. A California study found that half of those released from the state's prisons were functionally illiterate. Joan Petersilia, a criminologist with the University of California, Irvine, has studied the lives of parolees. 'They remain largely uneducated, unskilled, and usually without solid family support systems and now they bear the added burdens of a prison record and the distrust and fear that inevitably results. Not surprisingly, most parolees do not succeed, and failure occurs rather quickly: re-arrests are most common in the first six months after release.' she wrote."
This article gets me so mad that I feel like going out and beating the sh!t out of people that think drugs should be outlawed!
 

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Billo_Really said:
This article gets me so mad that I feel like going out and beating the sh!t out of people that think drugs should be outlawed!

Drug addiction should be treated as a social rather than criminal problem.
 

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Originally posted by Timmyboy:
Drug addiction should be treated as a social rather than criminal problem.
I think I just said something to that effect a couple of posts ago.
 
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The goal of the penal system should be rehabilitation. Society gains the most benefit when these people stop committing crimes and start to earn honest livings. Punishment for revenge's sake is a waste of resources. All it does is further damage their already distorted mentalities and makes them less likely to ever be useful to society as a whole. If we use punishment, it should only be a judiciously applied tool towards rehabilitating them.

Keeping a convict away from society without trying to rehabilitate them is a criminal waste of tax dollars. It amounts to nothing but an extended time-out. After you release them, they are essentially the same person who committed the crime, but now they have more difficulty earning an honest living and less social support to prevent them from recidivising. Just locking them up does nothing but gives them greater incentive to not be caught next time.

Those criminals unable to be rehabilitated and released back into society should be used as slave labor, to make them earn their keep. That, or kill them and sell off their organs, whatever is more cost effective.

jamesrage said:
Billo_Really said:
It's supposed to be a free country Jimmyboy. You want to put casual pot smokers in with hardened criminals.
They know it is illegal,Drugs damage the mind.
Billo_Really said:
What kind of society is that going to create?
A society were I and many other tax payers do not pay for health and finiancial problems that certian indivuals have caused themselves because they wanted to smoke weed.
James, after reading this post, I'm be willing to accept that you have extensive firsthand knowledge about the negative impact of drugs on the mind.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
I would like to quote an author Alan Elsner from his book "Gates of Injustice":

"Robert, a Vietnam veteran with a drugs habit, was arrested in Washington, D.C., in a police sting in 1984 with marijuana and PCP in his pocket. At the time, he was working as a junior auditor for the IRS and supportinga son and daughter. He described himself as a recreational user. "I wasn't a junkie. I had it under control. I wasn't hurting no one." he said. The judge wasn't impressed. He sentenced Robert to 4 to 16 years in prison. If he had behaved himself behind bars and stayed clean after his release, Robert could have been done with his sentence relatively quickly and gone on with his life. That's not the way things turned out.

Behind bars, Robert did behave well. He was an education aide, helping fellow inmates to get their GED high school equivalency certificates and also worked as a control room cleark. After five years, he was released on parole. But Robert had not kicked his habit in prison and soon resumed using drugs. He found a job but failed to report regularly to his parole officer. In 1994, he was sent back to prison for violating the terms of his parole. Three years later, he was released again; this time he stayed out for seven months before failing a drugs test. Back he went. In November 1999, Robert emerged yet again but was free for less than two months before a dirty urine test sent him back once more. When I met him in March 2000, Robert was living at a halfway house in Washington D.C., where we was closely supervised and regularly tested for drugs. He had a clerical job that paid $8.75 an hour and was due to move in with his sister six weeks later. He was full of good intentions. "I'm 46 years old. I'm getting too old for this. I want to stay out this time. Since 1984, I have spent 11 years in prison and five years outside, all for one drugs conviction. I have lost my family. I have not been a father to my children. I want to get my own place and take care of myself. I call it regaining responsibility over my life," he told me.

I intended to write a series of article about Robert, hoping to follow his progress over the following months as he tried to reubild his life. But the series never materialized. Two weeks after I met him, Robert failed a drugs test yet again and he was sent back to prison. He broke off contact and refused to talk to me again. His story, which is all too typical, raised serious issues. Robert had committed one drugs possession offense, for which he had served 11 years in prison and counting. Yes, he was an addict with a harmful habit. But he had never committed a violent offense, he was never a big time or even a small time dealer, he was never connected to a gang. Who was he hurting other than himself? Did society get its money worth for the many thousands of dollars spent on his incarceration? Or might there have been a better way?

Robert's case illustrates the dilemma facing the 600,000 prisoners being released from the U.S. prisons every year. Many emerge angry and bitter and even less well equipped to lead an honest life than they were before. As we have seen, drugs are widely availabe behind bars. According to the Office of National Drug Control Policy, 70 to 85 percent of state prison inmates need substance abuse assistance, but only 13 percent receive treatment in prison. A California study found that half of those released from the state's prisons were functionally illiterate. Joan Petersilia, a criminologist with the University of California, Irvine, has studied the lives of parolees.


JUnkies should not be treated as though they are vicitms.They are scum they are low life peices of **** degenerate scum who only give two shits about themselves.THese vermin make their choice to do drugs,nobody sticks a gun to head and forces them to do their drugs.

'They remain largely uneducated, unskilled, and usually without solid family support systems and now they bear the added burdens of a prison record and the distrust and fear that inevitably results. .

Where the **** is the smilies playing the violin when you need them?They made that choice to become degenerate junkies themselves.You want me to feel sorry because some rat vermin decided they wanted to be junkies?Boo ****ing hoo a junkie belongs behind bars.If they want to stay out of prison and not become addicted to some substance then do not do drugs.You want to smoke pot all ****in day then go to one of those ****ed up European countries that allow their citizens to become degenerate junkies.
 

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yeaaaahhh, riiiight, because we all know those ****ed up European countries have such worse drug and penal system problems than we do. Care to prove that point with something other than a vitriolic curse fest?
 

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jamesrage said:
JUnkies should not be treated as though they are vicitms.They are scum they are low life peices of **** degenerate scum who only give two shits about themselves.THese vermin make their choice to do drugs,nobody sticks a gun to head and forces them to do their drugs.



Where the **** is the smilies playing the violin when you need them?They made that choice to become degenerate junkies themselves.You want me to feel sorry because some rat vermin decided they wanted to be junkies?Boo ****ing hoo a junkie belongs behind bars.If they want to stay out of prison and not become addicted to some substance then do not do drugs.You want to smoke pot all ****in day then go to one of those ****ed up European countries that allow their citizens to become degenerate junkies.

Wow, you are nice guy aren't you? I'm glad to see you have some kind of compassion for others.
 
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