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What religion do you think has been the most descriminated against?

George_Washington

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What do you think?

I think in modern society, in the western world, Judaism and Catholicism have been the most descriminated against. That's why I think there is more of a bond between Jews and Catholics than there is between Jews and Protestants. I think Catholics definitely have more tolerance for Jews than some southern denominations of protestantism and more so than some Muslims do. Although Roman Catholicism continues to be the largest Christian denomination in the world, I still think it isn't that tolerated by some other groups. And of course I think Scientology is very much descriminated against around the world.

In the Asian world, I think buddhism has been the most descriminated against.
 

liberal1

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My two big ones would have to be Islam and Judaism.
 

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Islam? LOL. Remembering the photos where the religious leader of Islam gathered with Hitler, encouraging his Final Solution to the jews, and extending it to those in, per example, palestina, I find that a bit questionable.

The jews have been persecuted, true, but so have pagans. It's difficult to say, I think. And how do you really measure that sort of thing? I think we can safely say that each religion has had its ups and downs..

Mr U
 

steen

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Now, was that a lot different than the Catholic Church cozying up to Hitler?
 

HU-210

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No, but I'm not saying that the catholics have been a lot discriminated either. Sure, maybe in the early years by the roman empire, but since than, hardly. Both islam and the roman catholic church have been rather succesful in using the sword to supply new members, and I would primarily call them religions who discriminate than ones who do not.

Mr U
 

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Ruminating on this question, circular logic led to a funny thing, that all three religions who discriminate and are discriminated against are the same: Judism, Islamic and Christian. The Eastern Religions don't descriminate, the belief that all are one prevail in the practices of these beliefs.


Judism closed their scriptures before Jesus, not listening to the message the Christians upheld. Both refused to hear Muhamad. This discrimination against one another has been the history of the three.

Jewish believers sought Muslim lands when Christians invaded, they knew that there they would be protected. Christians slaughtered Muslims in the taking of the Holy City, Muslims let it slide when they took it back. Spain saw inquisitions, today muslim means terrorist to Christian and Jewish people alike.

Maybe all three hold equal claim and equal blame on this point.

KMS
 
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it's scientology isn't it.

Not even the politically correct media treat it seriously when they mention it, but they will be absolutely serious for mainstream religions like christianity and islam (ie newreaders won't be half laughing when talking about them)
 

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OnionCollection said:
it's scientology isn't it.

Not even the politically correct media treat it seriously when they mention it, but they will be absolutely serious for mainstream religions like christianity and islam (ie newreaders won't be half laughing when talking about them)
Being made fun of does not equate to discrimination of persecution.
 

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HU-210 said:
No, but I'm not saying that the catholics have been a lot discriminated either. Sure, maybe in the early years by the roman empire, but since than, hardly. Both islam and the roman catholic church have been rather succesful in using the sword to supply new members, and I would primarily call them religions who discriminate than ones who do not.

Mr U
If you look at history both of those religions have dealt out a lot more discrimination than they have received. I see you tweaked your sig, it's perfect now. :2razz:
 

HU-210

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Engimo said:
Being made fun of does not equate to discrimination of persecution.
Indeed. I think the jews who died of starvation would have prefered newsreaders cracking jokes about King Ahab.

see you tweaked your sig, it's perfect now.
Glad you noticed it. :)

Mr U
 

George_Washington

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HU-210 said:
No, but I'm not saying that the catholics have been a lot discriminated either. Sure, maybe in the early years by the roman empire, but since than, hardly. Both islam and the roman catholic church have been rather succesful in using the sword to supply new members, and I would primarily call them religions who discriminate than ones who do not.

Mr U
Well, you may have had somewhat of a point hundreds and hundreds of years ago (but it's debatable). But I think today the Catholic Church is definitely more descriminated against as the world moves to a more atheistic and materialistic manner. You should realize that Christians face descrimination all over the world and especially in Asian countries like China.
 
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Apostle13

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George_Washington said:
You should realize that Christians face descrimination all over the world and especially in Asian countries like China.
The answer certainly does lie in geographics, thus geographical determinism.
Other factors such as who is discriminating... Example a Muslim may discriminate against a Christian equally whether he is catholic or protestant to him he is just another Christian regardless.
Christendom (combined) is also larger in populas, therefore it may be assumed accurate to say they are more discriminated.
However, Islam is not far behind and has the more extreme activists. Striking fear and dread. Imposing discrimination upon themselves collectively.
 

CaliNORML

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You claim that Islam and Christianity both used the sword for new members, meaning the enforcment of a religion upon the conquered people of a region.

Islam never forced converts in any area it conquered as a historical fact.

This uprising of militant factions practicing what they believe is the Islamic faith is a relatively new happening since the birth of this religion in 600 AD.

Democracy and other philisophical ideas of the great Greek thinkers were in fact rescued by Islam, thus the Western World now has them to practice. The basis of many current nations Constitutions comes from the Ottoman Empire's which was the largest Empire ever to grant such freedoms. Freedom of religion was assured, and the conquered areas hardly felt the Islamic presence as they were allowed to keep their own governmental structures intact.

Islam and the West have the same roots, and share many of the same texts, including the Old Testament as well as many of the basics of medicine and philosophy, all originating from the Greek tradition.

This isn't a plug for or against either of these religions, just a historical point I thought needed to be made.

KMS
 

HU-210

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Freedom of religion was assured, and the conquered areas hardly felt the Islamic presence as they were allowed to keep their own governmental structures intact.
Source please.

Islam, as a prime example,
has been characterized inequitably by historians and the media as a
religion of violence. To put it bluntly, as this article does, "Islam
was mainly spread through Arab territorial conquests (Sudo, 4)."
However, upon examination, it is not fair to make the generalization
that Islam is a religion of violence, and one notices when looking at
world religion on a whole, one finds that Islam was no more violent
than any other religion. In fact, not only is Islam not a
fundamentally violent philosophy, but we can also see that many other
religions normally considered "non-violent," such as Christianity or
Hinduism, have been spread through bloody conquest.
(http://www.cyberessays.com/History/70.htm)

Oh, by the way:

http://web.mid-day.com/news/world/2005/november/123248.htm

This isn't a plug for or against either of these religions, just a historical point I thought needed to be made.
Historical? In the least it is a highly controversial point, at the worst, complete nonsense. In any case, from the Quran and the ahadith can be read that Islam in its very beginnings is full of bloody conquest. Attacking cities that would not be convert. When correcting someone, you could at least support your argument with a source... :roll:

Mr U
 
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Apostle13

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CaliNORML

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The blackest mark on Christianity is the taking of the Holy City from Muslims.
Twice when taken by Muslims, no killing followed the invasion in comparison to the blackest mark on Christendomes history when the Crusaders arrived. Crusaders even bragged of slaughtering the dogs, as well as people in Christian churchs in their overtaking Holy Soil.

The very start of the Islamic culture was hearalded by such actions when they took the city of Mecca. The people there waited to die, yet all were spared.

The fact that terrorism is a tool used in modern times is undisputed, since 1816 when the Ottoman Empire fell, a split has occured between believers in this religion. Some of these factions are indeed militant, but not all.

When researching this subject I chose to listen to the school of Theology at Harvard, and many leading Christian Historians today, as well as watching multiple points of view in the form of Documentaries and reading literature from such scholars when this time in history is discusses. On the fact of Islamic conquest and conversion, they all agree on these points in history, outside of the warriors being fought in the conquest were killed, yet upon the people, there was no killing or forced conversion.

The best documentary on this subject is Lost Empires:Islam, produced by PBS. There are Christian Scholars interviewed who agree this is the way Islamic leaders ran their empire, and that the Christians have one of the blackest and bloodiest record of using the sword under the name of God in history.

KMS
 

CaliNORML

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Sorry about that Documentary I cited in the last post I would like to rectify that title.

The proper documentary and attached learning series is actually called Islam: Empire of Faith and is located online here: PBS LINK

This was the start of Islam;

"Raiding and warfare were the primary economic activities of the new community in Medina, and the rich caravans organized by the Quraysh of Mecca were particularly attractive targets. In 628, Muhammad finally negotiated a truce with the Meccans and in the following year returned as a pilgrim to the city's holy sites. The murder of one of his followers provoked him to attack the city, which soon surrendered. Muhammad acted generously to the Meccans, demanding only that the pagan idols around the Kaaba be destroyed. Muhammad's prestige grew after the surrender of the Meccans. Embassies from all over Arabia came to Medina to submit to him. Muhammad's extraordinary life and career were cut short by his sudden death on June 8, 632, aged about sixty, less than a decade since he had set off from Mecca with his small band of followers."

This is where the roots of Islam are buried.

"Muslims believe that God had previously revealed Himself to the earlier prophets of the Jews and Christians, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims therefore accept the teachings of both the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels. They believe that Islam is the perfection of the religion revealed first to Abraham (who is considered the first Muslim) and later to other prophets. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians have strayed from God's true faith but hold them in higher esteem than pagans and unbelievers. They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the "seal of the prophecy," by which they mean that he is the last in the series of prophets God sent to mankind. Muslims abhor the followers of later prophets. This attitude serves to explain the extreme Muslim animosity toward Bahais, followers of a nineteenth-century prophet, who in the Muslim mind is false."

I will site other sources, however this is one of the most balanced and complete series I have seen, from the mouths of the leading National Authorities on such matters worldwide.

KMS
 
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laska

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I sort of wince when people state Christianity did this evil and that. Historical Christianity definately has done many evil deeds in the name of God but are they really followiing Jesus' teachings, are the Heavens guiding these people and do they have the proper authority to speak in God's name? Jesus taught the following:

[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[10] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
[11] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
[12] Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
[27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
[29] For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
 

laska

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Jesus also states:

Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
 

nkgupta80

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George_Washington said:
Excellent point, Laska. Some people foolishly choose to judge the validity of Christianity on the actions of its followers and not the one that sowed its seed.

yep, same for all other major religions i guess...
 

HU-210

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Muhammad acted generously to the Meccans, demanding only that the pagan idols around the Kaaba be destroyed.
Wait... He conquered Mecca, and made sure they destroyed their pagan symbols. How is that not conquering cities, and forcing them to convert?

Islam never forced converts in any area it conquered as a historical fact.
Do you thus retract your previous statement about it being a 'historical fact'?

Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Yes... Dante describes Muhammed and his mosque in Hell. The mosques stand in the city of Dis, and, "See how maimed Mohammed is! And he / who walks and weeps before me is Ali, / whose face is opened wide from chin to forelock" (canto XXVIII, 31-33).

Where I religious, I would have to be of Christian faith. :)

Mr U
 

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It also stated Islam let the Jewish and Christians practice thier faiths unmolested. Only demaniding that "Pagan and false" idols be destroyed to then bring the word of God, the One True God to his people, this was a birth, not the tone of the entire movement. I akin this action to Moses on the Mountain and telling the people to no longer worship such idol in favor of the "One True God." Moses also not only made them destroy the Golden Calf but in some texts he forced them to drink some of the gold it contained. All religions begin by uniting under One Belief and almost all have done this exact act of destroying the old idols to unite under God.

Jesus was also physical in the denouncing false Idols in the temple, that was also a violent act against such false beliefs.

However thanks for that pointer.

I will now say that Pagans have been most discrimnated against in history. Everyone dislikes a Pagan. Heathens and Pagans always get a bad rap. Celts, Druids, American Indians, Mayan and others of this ilk were set for eradication, and its almost true today.

Natural and Local beliefs and customs have fallen to these three by the hundreds if not thousands.

That was very helpfull and I now realize that I did totally overlook those religious practices that were established outside the three major "True God" religions when asking myself this question. Thanks for opening my eyes and mind.

KMS
 
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HU-210

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It also stated Islam let the Jewish and Christians practice thier faiths unmolested.
But did they pay the same taxes, and where they treated with the same regard as muslims?

Everyone dislikes a Pagan.
Hehe. Pity that I could not bear a more positive message. :mrgreen:

Mr U
 

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The Ottoman Empire was the first real bureaucracy they kept carefull records and did not interfer with local governments to a large extent, in fact many under the Ottoman conquest felt very little change to their daily life.

The Ottomans are credited with the modern form of government we have today.

The first Constitution granting freedom of religions, proper taxation and all courts under one main body was thought of and implimented by this Empire.

Just as the Jewish community sought protection from the Christians within this Empire in the the protection of the Holy Lands, this was because they knew there they would be treated fairly on all aspects of government and faith.

KMS
 
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