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What political philosophy do you disagree with the most?

samsmart

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What political philosophy, or sub-group of a political philosophy, do you disagree with the most, and why?
 

Korimyr the Rat

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Libertarians, especially Objectivists. Their worldview is completely antithetical to mine-- they talk about "society" the same way I talk about "rights", as a potentially useful social construct to be discarded if it interferes with our ultimate goals-- and our ultimate goals for government and society are completely opposed. The Objectivists make it even worse, by treating our differences of political opinion like a holy crusade, and who whole heartedly believe that everything they learn from Ayn Rand's books is gospel truth.

It's surprising how often you can scratch an anarchist and find a frustrated dictator underneath, though. Perhaps part of the problem is that we have more in common than either of us is comfortable with.
 

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Fascism, hands down. As Vik pointed out, Libertarianism and Fascism are essentially polar opposites. I also have plenty of disdain and disagreement with Communism/Marxism/Leninism. And while it could be said there is a only a thin line between a libertarian and an anarchist, I find myself to be worlds apart from anarchism. As for more mainstream groups, nanny state left wing progressivism (i.e. the types who pushed through smoking bans or the Happy Meal toy ban in SF) and extreme social conservatives who want to use public schools to push religion or want to censor, ban, or boycott anything mildly offensive to them. Not surprisingly, the one thing they both have in common is embracing authoritarian means to enforce their agendas.

Viktyr, could you expand on that last bit? I'm curious exaclty what you mean and what experiences have lead you to that conclusion.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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Viktyr, could you expand on that last bit? I'm curious exaclty what you mean and what experiences have lead you to that conclusion.

I mean fascism and anarchism have in common the disdain of democracy, of being ruled by the common man-- people with views and values that differ from our own, people who do not understand the way we wish to live our lives. The anarchist replies by saying "no rules", while the fascist replies by saying "my rules" but at heart they are both saying "these rules are wrong". You find a lot of people swinging drastically from authoritarianism to libertarianism or vice versa-- I am one such example-- and a lot of people who unironically express both views at the same time, people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. I think a lot of so-called "libertarians" are people who merely want the freedom to live their life their way, and who secretly don't care all that much for whether or not their neighbors can do the same.

Everyone wants power. Everyone. The only difference is how much power people want, and what they want to do with it.
 

spud_meister

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I disagree with almost every other political philosophy in some way, though the most would probably be the uber religious conservatives.
 

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I mean fascism and anarchism have in common the disdain of democracy, of being ruled by the common man-- people with views and values that differ from our own, people who do not understand the way we wish to live our lives. The anarchist replies by saying "no rules", while the fascist replies by saying "my rules" but at heart they are both saying "these rules are wrong". You find a lot of people swinging drastically from authoritarianism to libertarianism or vice versa-- I am one such example-- and a lot of people who unironically express both views at the same time, people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. I think a lot of so-called "libertarians" are people who merely want the freedom to live their life their way, and who secretly don't care all that much for whether or not their neighbors can do the same.

Everyone wants power. Everyone. The only difference is how much power people want, and what they want to do with it.

Interesting theory. I certainly can't speak for other libertarians, but I can for myself, and I don't seem to fit your theory. I'm generally able to live my life the way I want right now. Many of the libertarian policies I advocate would have zero impact on my personal life. I don't do drugs, but I want to see them legalized. I don't use the services of prostitutes, but again I think it should be legal. I don't smoke, but oppose government bans on smoking in privately owned public places. I'm not a racist or a segregationist, but I think private business owners should have the right to serve (or not serve) whoever they like. I wouldn't engage in most of the things I want to see legalized. I can honestly say that yes, I want to be left alone and allowed to make my own choices, but I strongly feel that everyone should have that right.

I do think your theory could apply to some libertarians I've run across. I've seen some libertarians who want to go beyond just being free in the legal sense. I've seen some folks wish for a society nothing was even condemned, or looked down upon. Where nearly all actions were equally embraced as acceptable alternatives. But I disagee. Even though society may tolerate certain unsavory actions, it doesn't mean we need to accept or condone them.

On a more personal note, I wills say that one quirk of my personality probably has helped drive me towards libertarianism. I have a deep resentment of having my choices limited or removed. Telling me I can't do something, makes me want to do it even more. Telling me I absolutely have to do something, is an almost guaranteed way to get me to resist (sometimes even if its something I would do on my own without outside interfence).

When smoking bans were passed in this state, there was a small part of me that wanted to start smoking 3 packs a day just to stick it to the anti-smoking zealots. When I see the Tipper Gore censorship brigade protesting the latest thing to offend their delicate sensibilities, part of me wants to run up to their children (because they alway hide behind "the children" when they try to squash the right to express ourselves) waving a porno mag and shouting the most vulgar obscenities I can imagine. When I read San Fransico banned Happy Meal Toys, part of me wanted to go buy ten Happy Meals as a sign of solidarity with McDonald's (and I don't even particularly like their food!). When my state changed our seatbelt laws so that cops could pull you over just for not wearing a seat belt, a tiny part of me wanted to rip the seat belts out of my car. Of course, I didn't actually do any of those things. And I'm not a regular smoker (I smoke a cigar now and then, but not very often and have been known to bum a cigerette when I'm drunk). Nor do I don't usually purchase extremely offensive or explicit materials. Nor do I regularly eat fast food (even less now that I've been working on getting back into shape). And I don't think seatbelts are a bad thing, but hate having my decisions dictated to me, even if its one I've already reached on my own. I really loath these busybodies who have nothing better to do with their time than telling other people how to live their lives. Is it so hard to mind your own business and to let other people mind theirs?

I'll end my rant there and move on. I'm curious about you. What pushed you from one extreme to the other? I've never met someone who openly embraced fascism and I've certainly never met a former libertarian turned fascist. What exactly made you make such a radical switch?
 

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Libertarians, especially Objectivists. Their worldview is completely antithetical to mine-- they talk about "society" the same way I talk about "rights", as a potentially useful social construct to be discarded if it interferes with our ultimate goals-- and our ultimate goals for government and society are completely opposed. The Objectivists make it even worse, by treating our differences of political opinion like a holy crusade, and who whole heartedly believe that everything they learn from Ayn Rand's books is gospel truth.

It's surprising how often you can scratch an anarchist and find a frustrated dictator underneath, though. Perhaps part of the problem is that we have more in common than either of us is comfortable with.


Intresting commentary, as usual.

I am of the opinion that most or all who embrace the idea of fascism wish to either be the dictator, or else be the dictator's right-hand-man and policy-advisor. :)

As a largely-conservative person who leans libertarian in some regards... yeah, if you scratch the surface in some ways I'd like to be dictator. I'd be a odd dictator though... 95% of my unquestioned orders would be about enforcing the Bill of Rights and engaging in fiscally responsible governance, and encouraging self-reliance and self-determination. "I order you to be free! Now, go get a job!" :mrgreen:


I'd have to say that left-wing nanny-state-ism and socialism are most anti-thetical to me, along with the sort of militant secularism that tries to say that a nativity scene on government property violates the church-n-state thing.
 

tacomancer

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I don't know if I can wrap it up in any sort of label, as my biggest philosophical issue is with those who advocate any form of social darwinism. While I believe that people do, in a sense, have some control over their destiny, I think many people overemphasize how much control a person has over their own life in the face of things like plain luck, birth and childhood circumstance, the idiocy of other people, the economy, political reality, available resources, etc.

Because of all of those things a person has no control over, I believe a very large amount of a person's success or failure has nothing to do with them personally, so I advocate some leveling of the playing field so a meritocracy can actually form and work properly.

Its a bit off and ironic I guess. I dislike social darwinism, not necessarily because I see it as bad, but because I don't think it realistically applies to our current situation due to the many inefficiencies that society currently imposes on us individually.
 

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I don't have enough time to expand upon this right now, but without a doubt I oppose communism in all of its forms more so than any other ideology. Especially anarcho-communism. I believe it would be the complete unraveling of the human progress and world society as we know it. And it would not ever organize into something better.
 

tacomancer

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I don't have enough time to expand upon this right now, but without a doubt I oppose communism in all of its forms more so than any other ideology. Especially anarcho-communism. I believe it would be the complete unraveling of the human progress and world society as we know it. And it would not ever organize into something better.

I agree. Anarcho-anything is a recipe for disaster.
 

digsbe

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The people I disagree with the most are the militant atheists who are very socially liberal and are far left/far right in their political views.
 

Fiddytree

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I would say it is mostly the people behind it that make it difficult to deal with. Libertarianism, though seemingly an alien concept to me, has many points of consideration. Liberalism (of many forms) has many points of consideration. Conservatism (of many forms) likewise have many points of consideration.

For myself, I think I have more arguments with American political liberals and those getting closer to Democratic Socialists. I grew up as a liberal, and of course, things change, but I also studied a great deal of liberal argument through my historical research..and I think what ended up happening was seeing a great many rhetorical excesses that drove me nuts. So I think people know they can hit my red button when I perceive a liberal saying something that I find ridiculous.

Nevertheless, I really do try to get along with people. I do have many friends who are scattered completely around the spectrum, some being completely indifferent.
 

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Damn, I hate it when you write something long and then lose it :/

I generally disagree with anyone too far on either side of the political spectrum, too extreme I suppose. But if I had to choose, ultra religious Conservatives I tend to disagree with most. You know the type who complain about too much Government intervention but then support Government intervention when it is a cause they support. Another type who I disagree with are too extreme Liberals. The ones who support nanny state and bans on smoking, fast food adverts, health and safety on everything, banning of children sports because it may cause pain etc.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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I do think your theory could apply to some libertarians I've run across. I've seen some libertarians who want to go beyond just being free in the legal sense. I've seen some folks wish for a society nothing was even condemned, or looked down upon. Where nearly all actions were equally embraced as acceptable alternatives. But I disagee. Even though society may tolerate certain unsavory actions, it doesn't mean we need to accept or condone them.

I view allowing people to do something with little or no regulation to be morally equivalent to accepting or condoning it. What is the State, if not the tool by which the majority imposes its will upon the minority?

I'll end my rant there and move on. I'm curious about you. What pushed you from one extreme to the other? I've never met someone who openly embraced fascism and I've certainly never met a former libertarian turned fascist. What exactly made you make such a radical switch?

It started with the public schools.

In my youth, I was an anarcho-capitalist, and I signed up with the Libertarian Party of New Mexico as the closest representation of my ideology. However, at a Party meeting, the issue of public schools came up, and I opined that if taxes were necessary and we were paying them for the military and law enforcement, the public school system was also a worthwhile government program and should be supported. I was angrily shouted down and all but booted from the party.

Like you, when I'm told that I can't do something, I tend to rebel against it. So I revoked my Libertarian Party membership and re-examined my beliefs on the role of the State in society. I started off something of a liberal, believing that government should stay out of our lives, but that certain services should still be provided to the best of our ability. I realized that the State was a necessary and even desirable part of society. I held on to certain anarchist/libertarian beliefs, like that government was by nature violent and coercive. I slowly came to realize that if the State should use violence and coercion to provide necessary services for society, that it was justified in using violence and coercion to perform other functions that are desirable for society.

I am of the opinion that most or all who embrace the idea of fascism wish to either be the dictator, or else be the dictator's right-hand-man and policy-advisor. :)

The earliest adopters, certainly. As the movement gains momentum, people embrace the idea merely to be a part of it.

It makes sense to me. If the purpose of embracing Fascism is to see one's moral vision imposed upon society, then the closer one should be to the Leader to see more of that vision implemented. The only reason I am not an avid supporter of the State as it exists now is that it is dominated by two ineffective, liberal parties whose agendas are too divergent from my own to deserve my support.

Its a bit off and ironic I guess. I dislike social darwinism, not necessarily because I see it as bad, but because I don't think it realistically applies to our current situation due to the many inefficiencies that society currently imposes on us individually.

I am much the same. I value Social Darwinism in theory, but in practice too many bright, young minds don't receive the necessary resources to be capable of competing against less talented but more privileged men and women. The advantages and disadvantages of environment too heavily outweigh the advantages and disadvantages of natural talent for Social Darwinism to be an effective mechanism for social improvement.
 

samsmart

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I don't know if I can wrap it up in any sort of label, as my biggest philosophical issue is with those who advocate any form of social darwinism. While I believe that people do, in a sense, have some control over their destiny, I think many people overemphasize how much control a person has over their own life in the face of things like plain luck, birth and childhood circumstance, the idiocy of other people, the economy, political reality, available resources, etc.

Because of all of those things a person has no control over, I believe a very large amount of a person's success or failure has nothing to do with them personally, so I advocate some leveling of the playing field so a meritocracy can actually form and work properly.

Its a bit off and ironic I guess. I dislike social darwinism, not necessarily because I see it as bad, but because I don't think it realistically applies to our current situation due to the many inefficiencies that society currently imposes on us individually.

Everything you said made absolute sense to me, and I understand greatly.
 

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Pretty much anything that espouses that, if you believe in it, you are automatically superior to others. Definitely one of the big deterrences for me and organized religion.

The feeling of "I believe the right thing, I'm going to heaven instead of all these guys"
 

tacomancer

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Pretty much anything that espouses that, if you believe in it, you are automatically superior to others. Definitely one of the big deterrences for me and organized religion.

The feeling of "I believe the right thing, I'm going to heaven instead of all these guys"

And whats interesting is that Christianity informs a person that people are pretty messed up, including the believer. I always find it interesting that anyone who professes Christianity can justify moral superiority without laughing at themselves. According to the religion, we are all sinners and we all do the wrong things from time to time.
 

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For this to work I have to make it pretty specific. I can find points of agreement with conservatives, with communists, with socialists, even with libertarians. But social conservatives, them I find almost no grounds of agreement. About the only issue I can think of where I do agree with social conservatives is on drug laws. Every other issue, I tend to be the exact opposite of social conservatives.
 

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It's funny. The group I disagree with is libertarians and their unrealistic values on privatizing everything. They are also the group I agree with most. Their ideas on liberty and freedom are second to none.

PS: And militant atheists because they are so busy being offended by anything religious.
 
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The group that I have the most disagreements with are social conservatives. About all of their views are diametrically opposed to my views.
 
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