What people don't get about Trump support...

[AmNat]

People elected through representative democracy, ultimately answerable to the people they govern. What mechanism exists to oust a dictator? Yer guns?

Every other year we oust our elected representatives. Has any election in the last 80 years meaningfully changed the operation of the US government?

What?

It's very difficult for people to act in a goal-oriented manner without leadership. And whatever ability people do have to pursue goals collectively is quickly destroyed by fighting over power. Which is why autocratic states are able to act effectively, while democracies degenerate into process-oriented bureaucracy.

In the abstract, any form of government can be paired with any philosophy of government. In practice, a given form of government will (over time) give a competitive advantage to ideologies more structurally compatible with itself.

Compared to Caligula.

Compared to the Republic.

 

[BlueTex]

I'd say somewhere between 7-10%. That includes both the undecided and those who state they'll vote other or third party. RCP averages of all the recent polls have Biden ahead 49.9 to 42.8 which would leave an average of only 7.2% in the undecided/third party column. What the polls don't show is the strength of the commitment.

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - General Election: Trump vs. Biden

The last three months have shown Biden no lower than 48% and no higher than 51% rounded. Trump has been between 40-43%, no lower and no higher. That's pretty steady. In other words, there hasn't been a big fluctuation one normally gets, especially in the early goings. So it's possible that approximately 88% of the people have their minds made up baring a totally unexpected, unforeseen event or happening upsetting the apple cart.

This is completely opposite of 2016 when at this time, 8 Sep 2016 there were 20% of the electorate still in the undecided/third party column instead of the 7-10% that we have today. We still have a long time to go, we still have the debates and probably a billion dollars worth of TV political ads from both sides. But I would say, Biden is in a very comfortable position as of today.

Great analysis!

 

[AmNat]

Wow, just wow. That's some powerful wisdom. When did you decide that you want to forfeit your freedom and submit yourself to a master? Honest question.

Always and everywhere, human freedom is dependent on the will of the government. Autocratic regimes tend to be better for personal freedom (distinguished from "political freedom", which is the freedom to take away others' freedom), since they have less incentive to take it away.

 

[Crovax]

Do you want a dictatorship?

The question should be who doesn’t?

If you look at our most popular presidents they have been the most authoritative

 

[Dans La Lune]

The question should be who doesn’t?

If you look at our most popular presidents they have been the most authoritative

Which ones?

 

[Dans La Lune]

Always and everywhere, human freedom is dependent on the will of the government. Autocratic regimes tend to be better for personal freedom (distinguished from "political freedom", which is the freedom to take away others' freedom), since they have less incentive to take it away.

Less incentive to take what away? They have already taken your freedom at that point. What freedom they allow you is by the grace of a single person's mood.

Russia has the barest semblance of a democracy, for example. It's an autocracy in all but name. The government funnels the wealth of the nation to a few people, the police are given permission to beat and kill gays, religious minorities are persecuted. Would you say this is freedom? Even for the average Russian citizen?

 

[Dans La Lune]

Every other year we oust our elected representatives. Has any election in the last 80 years meaningfully changed the operation of the US government?

That's kind of my exact point. And yes, FDR changed the operation of government, ushering in the largest era of prosperity a nation has ever seen. Trump is the bookend to this era, ushering in the utter ruin of America.

It's very difficult for people to act in a goal-oriented manner without leadership.

Would you say Trump is a good leader? Would you say Putin is a good leader? Erdogan? Bashar Al Assad? Mohammad Bin Salman? Point me to a good autocratic leader.

And whatever ability people do have to pursue goals collectively is quickly destroyed by fighting over power. Which is why autocratic states are able to act effectively, while democracies degenerate into process-oriented bureaucracy.

Define 'effectively', please.

In the abstract, any form of government can be paired with any philosophy of government. In practice, a given form of government will (over time) give a competitive advantage to ideologies more structurally compatible with itself.

What competition?

Compared to the Republic.

Which Republic?

 

[Crovax]

Which ones?

Washington
Lincoln
FDR

 

[AmNat]

Less incentive to take what away?

Freedom of association. Freedom to educate one's own kids. Freedom to run a business without having the minutiae regulated by bureaucrats. Freedom to live one's life without disruption by random political manias.

They have already taken your freedom at that point. What freedom they allow you is by the grace of a single person's mood.

As opposed to the grace of many peoples' mood?

Russia has the barest semblance of a democracy, for example. It's an autocracy in all but name. The government funnels the wealth of the nation to a few people, the police are given permission to beat and kill gays, religious minorities are persecuted. Would you say this is freedom? Even for the average Russian citizen?

Russia is still in the early stage of democracy, where elected leaders hold real power (I'd call this set-up "real democracy", the media naturally calls it "fake democracy"). Russians certainly seem to enjoy more freedom than Americans at this point (keeping in mind that most Russians are not JWs, homosexuals, or other subversives).

That's kind of my exact point. And yes, FDR changed the operation of government, ushering in the largest era of prosperity a nation has ever seen. Trump is the bookend to this era, ushering in the utter ruin of America.

America in 1932 was a far different place than it is today (not that President Roosevelt had anything in common with Candidate Roosevelt). For the last eight decades, democracy has been entirely ineffective at holding government accountable. Why do you suppose that is?

Would you say Trump is a good leader? Would you say Putin is a good leader? Erdogan? Bashar Al Assad? Mohammad Bin Salman? Point me to a good autocratic leader.

Trump is not a leader, as he does not have real executive control. Given his management experience and his love for the people, I believe he would be a good leader, if our system of government allowed leaders.

The others you've listed are all reasonably good leaders, though some more than others. Most monarchs throughout history were good leaders (eras that don't take up much space in the history books are usually marked by good government, since history books are mostly the story of bad government).

Define 'effectively', please.

An action is effective if its objective effects correspond to the stated intention behind the action. An action is ineffective if its objective effects do not correspond to the stated intention behind the action.

What competition?

Competition between ideologies.

Which Republic?

The Roman Republic . . . the only one Caesar and Augustus had anything to do with.

 

[Felis Leo]

Famous Cults:

This (the Trump cult) may be the biggest cult ever seen but it is a cult. Cults believe blindly in their leader. Jim Jones with the People's Temple convinced all of his members to commit suicide. All 900 of them. David Berg and The Children of God convinced his people that pedophilia was okay. Children of the members were regularly raped, even a 4-year old. David Koresh convinced his people that he was talking to God and that the world was ending. He convinced more than 100 people to move to a compound in Waco, Texas and they held off the FBI for more than 50 days. In the end, the compound was set to fire by them and 75 of the members died. Marshall Applewhite convinced his members that he was the second coming of Jesus Christ. He convinced to give away all their money and then commit convinced 8 male members to get castrated to get rid of their sexual thoughts. In the end, he convinced his flock to commit suicide by putting bags over their heads and suffocate themselves.

All of these people believed blindly that their leader was right and they needed to follow everything he said.

With the only exception that this is a cult of tens of millions, the belief in their leader is total and blind.

It is a cult.

Definition of a cult: a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.

Cult Leader Characteristics

The problem with that theory is that Cultists would remain tied to the cult and its leader no matter the outside situation. Donald Trump is not a cult leader in that sense. From what I see, most people who voted for Trump or intend to vote for Trump no do not turn to Donald Trump and vote for him because they love him and put their blind faith in him and his utterly inept leadership. They do it because they identify with him. The same people they see who hate and pour vitriol on Donald Trump are the same people who they believe hate and pour vitriol on them.

And if you see someone who is willing to attack the people who you perceive as hating you and are even out to hurt you, it only makes sense for you to vote for that person, no matter their flaws. Especially with the only other choice you are left with is...well, a candidate who appears to court the vote of people who you believe hate you and are out to hurt you.

Again, as per the comparison I gave to Dans La Lune: Do most black people in the United States vote Democratic because they believe that Democrats in general are extremely competent, ethical, and moral in their governance? Especially in areas like Chicago or Detroit where corruption, poverty and mismanagement is endemic in local government. I would wager to guess, probably not. Do they do so because they are cultists who were brainwashed into believing that the Democrats are infallible? Again, I would wager to guess almost definitely not. By all available data, it is because most black people believe that Republicans and the Republican platform are either indifferent or outright hostile to their wants and needs. So in the face of the forces that are hostile to their interests, the reason they vote Democratic is simply because they believe voting Democratic is in their best interest given the options that they have.

Likewise, for the people who vote for Donald Trump, voting for Donald Trump is the best option they have given that Trump voters believe that the forces arrayed against them do not simply disagree about matters of governance, but are outright hostile to them and their interests.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I prefer effective government in general, but since most of the current regime's operations are objectively harmful, I'm happy for Trump to obstruct them (to the limited extent he can).

Trump is the current regime. So you see Trump as so harmful that you're glad he's so incompetent he's obstructing himself? Jesus, the bizarre mind of a Trump cultist.

 

[AmNat]

Trump is the current regime.

Lol..

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Lol..

Wow, you're so delusional you didn't even know Trump was president and every federal agency is ran by his hand selected staff? Read a book, it might do you some good.

 

[Felis Leo]

Wow, you're so delusional you didn't even know Trump was president and every federal agency is ran by his hand selected staff? Read a book, it might do you some good.

Well that is a point that needs to be addressed, putting the partisanship aside for a moment, RabidAlpaca. Every President for the past almost-century since the end of World War I, both Republican and Democrat, has run up against the wall of a vast Federal bureaucracy made of competing interest groups and fiefdoms made up of lifelong civil servants of various departments, many of whom can expect to outlast the various Presidential Administrations and the myriad Department heads.

Even if the President is in charge of the Federal Departments and their bureaucracies through his appointees, that does not mean a President's will is absolute or that his desires will necessarily be obeyed. That is because they rely on these civil servants (let us call them "Federal Mandarins") to actually effectuate their policies. And if any given number of the Federal Mandarins who is hostile to the President and who knows how everything works decides to engage in a bit of goldbricking or perhaps even outright sabotage, there is little that can be done to overcome this since many of the appointed government heads may never have worked in those Departments and do not know how things function enough to put a stop to that.

To draw an analogy: Imagine captaining a gigantic battleship with a handful of hand-selected officers when almost the entire crew consisting of hundreds of seasoned crewmen thinks you and your coterie are a pack of incompetent idiots who are going to get them all killed, and is actively working to subvert your commands. That appears to largely be the situation our Federal government finds themselves in right now. A gigantic multilayered highly-complex ship of state captained by an inexperienced, inept fool and a crew that largely does not respect him or is outright hostile towards him.

 

[Felis Leo]

More importantly, what do you think government should do?

I realize that you were aiming your question at AmNat, but I believe that the proper function of government is to protect and safeguard the lives, the freedoms and the rights of all individual people under its authority, both citizen and non-citizen. What do you believe is the proper function(s) of government is, Dans, such that the effectiveness of the government is of paramount importance to you?

What is the function of the machine that needs the effectiveness of its operation at peak capacity?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Well that is a point that needs to be addressed, putting the partisanship aside for a moment, RabidAlpaca. Every President for the past almost-century since the end of World War I, both Republican and Democrat, has run up against the wall of a vast Federal bureaucracy made of competing interest groups and fiefdoms made up of lifelong civil servants of various departments, many of whom can expect to outlast the various Presidential Administrations and the myriad Department heads.

Even if the President is in charge of the Federal Departments and their bureaucracies through his appointees, that does not mean a President's will is absolute or that his desires will necessarily be obeyed. That is because they rely on these civil servants (let us call them "Federal Mandarins") to actually effectuate their policies. And if any given number of the Federal Mandarins who is hostile to the President and who knows how everything works decides to engage in a bit of goldbricking or perhaps even outright sabotage, there is little that can be done to overcome this since many of the appointed government heads may never have worked in those Departments and do not know how things function enough to put a stop to that.

To draw an analogy: Imagine captaining a gigantic battleship with a handful of hand-selected officers when almost the entire crew consisting of hundreds of seasoned crewmen thinks you and your coterie are a pack of incompetent idiots who are going to get them all killed, and is actively working to subvert your commands. That appears to largely be the situation our Federal government finds themselves in right now. A gigantic multilayered highly-complex ship of state captained by an inexperienced, inept fool and a crew that largely does not respect him or is outright hostile towards him.

The person I was responding to said the current regime's actions were evil, yet Trump IS the current regime. You're attempting to take away any responsibility for his actions by pretending Trump's federal government is a mutinous giant machine he has no control over.

In reality, 95% of the issues Trump is facing is directly his fault. He hand selected wildly unqualified and incompetent people to run his administration and he's wildly incompetent and unknowledgeable himself. He intentionally chose people with no background in what they're supposed to lead and an active desire to destroy that agency. Further, the few semi-qualified people he did have like Mattias and Kelley he fired unceremoniously.

So yes, Trump and his cronies ARE the current regime, and no there's no big deep state conspiracy to make him look bad they really are this incompetent and really did bring it on themselves.

 

[Luckyone]

The problem with that theory is that Cultists would remain tied to the cult and its leader no matter the outside situation. Donald Trump is not a cult leader in that sense. From what I see, most people who voted for Trump or intend to vote for Trump no do not turn to Donald Trump and vote for him because they love him and put their blind faith in him and his utterly inept leadership. They do it because they identify with him. The same people they see who hate and pour vitriol on Donald Trump are the same people who they believe hate and pour vitriol on them.

And if you see someone who is willing to attack the people who you perceive as hating you and are even out to hurt you, it only makes sense for you to vote for that person, no matter their flaws. Especially with the only other choice you are left with is...well, a candidate who appears to court the vote of people who you believe hate you and are out to hurt you.

Again, as per the comparison I gave to Dans La Lune: Do most black people in the United States vote Democratic because they believe that Democrats in general are extremely competent, ethical, and moral in their governance? Especially in areas like Chicago or Detroit where corruption, poverty and mismanagement is endemic in local government. I would wager to guess, probably not. Do they do so because they are cultists who were brainwashed into believing that the Democrats are infallible? Again, I would wager to guess almost definitely not. By all available data, it is because most black people believe that Republicans and the Republican platform are either indifferent or outright hostile to their wants and needs. So in the face of the forces that are hostile to their interests, the reason they vote Democratic is simply because they believe voting Democratic is in their best interest given the options that they have.

Likewise, for the people who vote for Donald Trump, voting for Donald Trump is the best option they have given that Trump voters believe that the forces arrayed against them do not simply disagree about matters of governance, but are outright hostile to them and their interests.

I totally understand what you are saying but there is one big fallacy in your thinking. One thing is to believe in having the same goals (what you are saying) and believing blindly in the person. Most of the people here on this board (and some I personally know) believe blindly in Trump. Few (if any) say and understand that Trump is an incompetent person. They believe he cares about them, that he has their best interests at heart, that he never makes mistakes. As such, they venerate the man as well as the goals. Evidently and with such a large amount of what I call "a cult", there are exceptions.

Nonetheless, in a case like what you state, one would find many saying "I dislike the man and much of what he does is wrong, but I am for the goals he is trying to achieve". Rarely is that said.

This what is said all the time



According to most Trump supporters, Trump can do no no wrong. That is the definition of "cult" love.

 

[snakestretcher]

Yes..

You want every aspect of your life dictated to with no effective means of objecting? Try that in Nazi Germany or North Korea and see how far you get. Lambs to the slaughter...

 

[snakestretcher]

What is it?



Most governments to have ever existed were dictatorships. Most were more effective (adjusted for technology) and less malignant (adjusted or not) than ours.



Apple is a dictatorship. So are all successful businesses.

Dictatorships don't have elections; or if they do it's curious that they always seem to achieve 99% of 'votes' cast. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

It's almost like we need someone other than a twelve-year-old to run our country.

Is he that old? I thought The Trumpet was still a baby. He cries like a baby. He talks like a baby. He looks like a baby. And last but most certainly not least, he acts like a baby. And that is not a good thing for someone in his position.

Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

I think you are missing a major point, Dans La Lune. From what I have observed, personally, I would compare the support Donald Trump gets from his particular demographic of supporters to the support Democrats enjoy from the vast majority of black voters in the United States.

You may think that the comparison is ridiculous, but I think it is salient. And that is this: If forced to choose, people will almost always vote for someone who is objectively incompetent but at least signals that he cares about them, over someone who is clearly competent and qualified for the position, but who they think holds them in contempt. Most black voters, even conservative black voters, vote Democratic because they believe the Republican party is either racist or indifferent to their plight and everyday needs. Meanwhile, many Republicans, white Christians, and working class white people vote for Donald Trump because they are given to believe that the other party, the Democrats is either indifferent to their beliefs, their values, their way of life, or actively holds them in contempt.

Completely agree with you there. The danger though is that he makes his people feel like he cares for them, but in reality he does not. He doesn't like anyone, let alone care for someone. And since he has the incapability to smile I am guessing he doesn't even like himself.

Joey

 

[rickc]

What is really baffling about trumps core base is

Evangelicals? They vote for "grab them by the *****" trump? Trump doesn't have a religious bone in his body. He is a total scumbag!

Uneducated whites? Nothing Republicans have ever done improves their lives. The democratic platform offers them so much more. The only reason they have to vote against their best interests is the Republicans have successfully labeled the democratic party the minority party. It seems it is all about race.

 

[JoeyJoystick]

Yes..

Than why don't you live in a country that has a dictatorship and leave your country behind for people who like a healthy prosperous life in a free world? I think you would be much more happy in North Korea.

Joey

 

[Hypothetical]

But what is funny about working whites and white Christians, is that they don’t think Trump holds them in contempt? They are obviously being exploited by Trump.

Trump is not a role model for a person, no doubt, but he is not exploiting his voters., nor is he setting up a dictatorship.

If you cannot see the link between the media who chums for the democratic party and how the establishment has been set up in DC to make sure that things stay the way THEY want, and Trump throws a big wrench into that so they despise him, then here we are.

you have been shown the lies the media states regularly, you have been shown evidence of a possible bigger conspiracy to unseat this president before his administration even got started and obstruct him at every turn.

there is no way , seeing the conformity of all of these separate entities, the mass media, the politicians, the FBI, the way they ALWAYS report the worst and it turns out to be a load of crap, or unproven... ALWAYS... that this is not an attempt to undermine our democracy at some level.

THEY are the ones exploiting race relations in this country, not Trump. It's sad that many of you cannot see that.

WHO allows riots to go on in their cities for months , and only when the vote starts to turn against them for it , finally states that it is wrong? people who do not actually care about their constituents, that is who.

 

[Dans La Lune]

When people say they don't like the bureaucracy of government, what they mean is that the don't want a leader that is held accountable by the checks and balances of a democracy. They want someone who can run roughshod over ethical concerns, civil rights, human rights, environmental concerns, and which sees corruption and self-dealing as a means to an end. We are in very scary times, people. The conservative movement is now actively praying for a dictatorship. These are the end times for America.

Please keep this in mind when you see moderate centrists asking for bi-partisan solutions and to work across the aisle. The Republican party must be destroyed. 99% of all problems in America can be laid at their feet.