What penalty should abortion carry?

[tryreading]

Have you noticed that I keep avoiding going so far as to say the ZEF is a "person"?

It doesn't have to be "murder" to be illegal.

If you would, please, look back at my answer to the OP, I argue that the provider should receive a class 5 felony. That's a small felony resulting in a maximum sentence of 2 years and a maximum fine of $150,000. This is a felony class reserved for dangerous acts, but where no one dies.

Logically, if I'm arguing for a class 5 felony, not a class 1 or 2 felony, I am arguing that the ZEF is not a person (as no one dies) and "murder" does not apply.

The woman wanted to harm herself, while the physician wanted to harm someone other than himself. That's the distinction.

Yes, the woman initiated the dangerous act against herself, but putting her in prison does nothing to correct why she wanted to harm herself. Like suicide, intervention is the answer.

Its not like suicide at all. She didn't want to harm herself. She wanted to abort, or kill, another human entity.

And the act isn't dangerous, per se. Abortion is safer than childbirth. So, unless you're worried about the fetus, there's virtually no danger to consider.

But I guess your distinction is you won't think of the fetus or unborn baby as a person, so the act couldn't have been murder. She paid a doctor to remove something that is not a person from her body. Then there's no reason to punish anybody.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Like prostitution and addiction to hard drugs, the woman getting the abortion is a victim. She needs help dealing with the pre-existing problems which compelled her to abortion, not a prison sentence.

Drug users are victims? Victims of what - their own lack of self control and stupidity?

Look - if an abortion is a crime than any woman who takes herself to kill her unborn, makes the appointment, goes there and lays on the exam table to go through the procedure then she's doing just as much as the dr and the nurse. Therefor, she is committing a crime (if you're considering abortion a crime). You just don't want to come right out and say it for some reason. . . which I don't understand.

That's like saying "growing pot is not a crime but smoking it or selling it is"

 

[Bodi]

The penalty for abortion should be that the mother loses her baby...

 

[LookingGlass]

Just how much "value" do you place on a human life? $1.00, 2...more, less? How much does a physician charge to end a life now days, a physician who has sworn an oath, "FIRST DO NO HARM"? And by what authority does anyone have the right to "alienate" (transfer) the right of this life to exist void of any due process of being charged with a crime against humanity..as per the founding documents statement concerning Life and Liberty? We the People have never made Abortion a legal right in the regulation of BIRTH CONTROL, POPULATION CONTROL, GENETICS, i.e., eugenics, perhaps you have the wrong FASCIST SOCIETY in mind. Show the LAW that has been legislated in representation of WE THE PEOPLES will that makes this action morally legal.

This nation was not established as an Oligarchical Republic ruled under the Totalitarian Edicts of 9 unelected, unrepresented, despots...but mandated to be governed by Republican Representation, Article 4 Section 4.

The founding documents were written in very vague terms. The Constitution must be fluid to remain valid. This isn't the 1700s. I know that many here in America wish it were so as do your brethren in the middle east that want to return to the dark ages. I am happy living in the here and now. Birth control, population revisions and eugenics are the keystones to the future society. It is easier to get on board now than to lag behind.

 

[Walter]

The founding documents were written in very vague terms. The Constitution must be fluid to remain valid. This isn't the 1700s. I know that many here in America wish it were so as do your brethren in the middle east that want to return to the dark ages. I am happy living in the here and now. Birth control, population revisions and eugenics are the keystones to the future society. It is easier to get on board now than to lag behind.

The founding document was The Declaration of Independence and it, as well as the United States came into existence a decade before the Compact Agreement among the states knows as the US CONSTITUTION was ever drafted and ratified by the people. And its refreshing to see a Fascist admit to adhering to the ideology of FASCISM. Regardless we live in a Representative Constitutional Republic not in a Socialist totalitarian state, and THE PEOPLE do not agree with your fascist position.

 

[LookingGlass]

The founding document was The Declaration of Independence and it, as well as the United States came into existence a decade before the Compact Agreement among the states knows as the US CONSTITUTION was ever drafted and ratified by the people. And its refreshing to see a Fascist admit to adhering to the ideology of FASCISM. Regardless we live in a Representative Constitutional Republic not in a Socialist totalitarian state, and THE PEOPLE do not agree with your fascist position.

Socialism is an untenable socio-economic system. It has been proven time and again NOT to work. Totalitarianism can work on a limited basis. The inevitability of corruption usually impedes any long term success. Fascism invariably leads to some bean-brain like Kim Jong Il. So no that doesn't work either. Republics only last a few hundred years at best. So the clock is ticking. I will interject that a monarchy is the oldest and most stable form of government. I don't propose the USA becoming a monarchy though.

 

[OKgrannie]

And by what authority does anyone have the right to "alienate" (transfer) the right of this life to exist void of any due process of being charged with a crime against humanity..as per the founding documents statement concerning Life and Liberty?

A zef doesn't have a "right to life" as long as it is dependent upon a woman to sustain it. It doesn't have a "life" of its own, its life is a gift from the woman who sustains it. If she chooses to not make that gift, that is all the due process necessary.

We the People have never made Abortion a legal right in the regulation of BIRTH CONTROL, POPULATION CONTROL, GENETICS, i.e., eugenics, perhaps you have the wrong FASCIST SOCIETY in mind. Show the LAW that has been legislated in representation of WE THE PEOPLES will that makes this action morally legal.

You lack understanding of this process. We don't pass laws to make things legal. We pass laws to make things illegal. In the absence of a law making an act a crime, the act IS legal. The courts have legally declared that laws banning abortion are unconstitutional, therefore, by default, abortion is legal. The courts were probably responding to public opinion though, as several states had liberalized their abortion laws and others were sure to follow.

This nation was not established as an Oligarchical Republic ruled under the Totalitarian Edicts of 9 unelected, unrepresented, despots...but mandated to be governed by Republican Representation, Article 4 Section 4.

The members of SCOTUS were all appointed legally as per the Constitution by legally elected Presidents. That's Republican representation at work. Literally, since a majority of the SC were appointed by Republican Presidents.

 

[Jerry]

Its not like suicide at all. She didn't want to harm herself. She wanted to abort, or kill, another human entity.

And the act isn't dangerous, per se. Abortion is safer than childbirth. So, unless you're worried about the fetus, there's virtually no danger to consider.

But I guess your distinction is you won't think of the fetus or unborn baby as a person, so the act couldn't have been murder. She paid a doctor to remove something that is not a person from her body. Then there's no reason to punish anybody.

I can make the case establishing 'compelling interest' of the State to ban or further restrict elective abortion for the sake of the mother's health; but this thread isn't about that in great detail.

If you would like to open a thread on that topic specifically, please do and send me a link. Otherwise such a case can be found in the book Why Pro-Life? - Store - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Getting back on topic...
With the premise that abortion is harmful to the woman, while not establishing the unborn as a "person", I hold that the physician and assisting staff distributing said harm should each face a class 5 felony, and the mother be ordered to attend counseling to address the root problems leading to the abortion.

Assuming this premise, do you suggest a different penalty?

 

[Jerry]

Drug users are victims? Victims of what - their own lack of self control and stupidity?

Initially, yes, but then chemical dependency compounded by dealers controlling the price enter the scenario. The correct thing for a drug dealer to do is give up his fortunes and lead his victims to rehabilitation.

Look - if an abortion is a crime than any woman who takes herself to kill her unborn, makes the appointment, goes there and lays on the exam table to go through the procedure then she's doing just as much as the dr and the nurse. Therefor, she is committing a crime (if you're considering abortion a crime). You just don't want to come right out and say it for some reason. . . which I don't understand.

I would have the law explicitly exempt the mother, as it already does in many examples, so that she can receive the treatment for the root causes leading up to the abortion. Locking her away does nothing to improve the situation. Locking away the physician and supporting staff, however, does.

That's like saying "growing pot is not a crime but smoking it or selling it is"

Pot should be 100% legal across the board for as long as alcohol and tobacco are.

 

[Bullshytz]

Like prostitution and addiction to hard drugs, the woman getting the abortion is a victim. She needs help dealing with the pre-existing problems which compelled her to abortion, not a prison sentence.

Then what about the doctor?
Shouldn't they be helped too?

Why do doctor have to be punished with a felony?
Why do doctor do abortion? Is it a addiction to killing babies?

I believe most doctor do what they do because they believe it's the right thing to do.

You think these doctor who do abortion are evil killer...
but i'm sure they have a value belief that justified their doing.

But of course some just do it for the money.
And greed can be said to be a addiction as well.

That's why they have rehab for gamblers.

Whatever the case blaming doctor only isn't fair imo.
Like the saying goes " it takes two to tango. "

 

[Jerry]

Then what about the doctor?
Shouldn't they be helped too?

Why do doctor have to be punished with a felony?
Why do doctor do abortion? Is it a addiction to killing babies?

I believe most doctor do what they do because they believe it's the right thing to do.

You think these doctor who do abortion are evil killer...
but i'm sure they have a value belief that justified their doing.

But of course some just do it for the money.
And greed can be said to be a addiction as well.

That's why they have rehab for gamblers.

Whatever the case blaming doctor only isn't fair imo.
Like the saying goes " it takes two to tango. "

I've given my answers to these questions on this page, and many times before in this thread. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the arguments in play.

 

[LookingGlass]

The founding document was The Declaration of Independence and it, as well as the United States came into existence a decade before the Compact Agreement among the states knows as the US CONSTITUTION was ever drafted and ratified by the people. And its refreshing to see a Fascist admit to adhering to the ideology of FASCISM. Regardless we live in a Representative Constitutional Republic not in a Socialist totalitarian state, and THE PEOPLE do not agree with your fascist position.

I will also interject that anyone who has given to March of Dimes or Planned Parenthood indeed is supporting birth control, population revisions and eugenics. So apparently a large number of THE PEOPLE do agree with my position.

 

[mac]

I will also interject that anyone who has given to March of Dimes or Planned Parenthood indeed is supporting birth control, population revisions and eugenics. So apparently a large number of THE PEOPLE do agree with my position.

I've never given to either one.

 

[kerussll]

The cervix could have scar tissue. Additional signs that a woman had an abortion would be the presence of certain medications in her system when she doesn't have another medical problem to explain them. Experiencing a number of other post-procedure symptoms, even if not serious, are also evidence. There is any number of ways to determine whether or not a woman has had an abortion, so I wonder where bowerbird was going with that line of questioning.

A woman's cervix can look a little different after she's given birth, yes. But there isn't typically any scar tissue from birth or an abortion. Unless it was horribly botched, an abortion leaves no physical evidence. You would have no way of knowing. Sorry.

 

[Jerry]

A woman's cervix can look a little different after she's given birth, yes. But there isn't typically any scar tissue from birth or an abortion. Unless it was horribly botched, an abortion leaves no physical evidence. You would have no way of knowing. Sorry.

Yeah we already covered all that, you're a little late to the party. Sorry.

 

[kerussll]

Yeah we already covered all that, you're a little late to the party. Sorry.

Ah, I guess I did miss that. I just can't imagine a feasible way to prosecute abortions when there is no physical evidence that a woman had one. For that matter, I don't even know how you could prove that she was pregnant in the first place. The only proof would come from medical records, and if abortion became illegal I doubt doctors who perform them would keep those lying around.

 

[Jerry]

Ah, I guess I did miss that. I just can't imagine a feasible way to prosecute abortions when there is no physical evidence that a woman had one. For that matter, I don't even know how you could prove that she was pregnant in the first place. The only proof would come from medical records, and if abortion became illegal I doubt doctors who perform them would keep those lying around.

Or, you know, if she loves to be outside but suddenly insists to stay inside and either makes shallow excuses and/or refuses to talk about it. Or if she wear out of season clothes to cover up.

Then there's finding something on her facebook, etc.

 

[kerussll]

Or, you know, if she loves to be outside but suddenly insists to stay inside and either makes shallow excuses and/or refuses to talk about it. Or if she wear out of season clothes to cover up.

Then there's finding something on her facebook, etc.

Staying inside or wearing different clothes are definitely not proof or even reasonable indicators of a pregnancy. I'm not sure if you realize the vast majority of abortions take place before a woman shows she's pregnant anyway? And having the courts investigate by hacking into her facebook to see if she told someone she was pregnant...come on, that's not going to stand up in court. It's circumstantial at best. She could say she was lying for attention, it was a joke, somebody else used her account, or claim she miscarried after she told her friend. This would all be a gigantic waste of our legal system's time, and people know better than this.

 

[Jerry]

Staying inside or wearing different clothes are definitely not proof or even reasonable indicators of a pregnancy. I'm not sure if you realize the vast majority of abortions take place before a woman shows she's pregnant anyway? And having the courts investigate by hacking into her facebook to see if she told someone she was pregnant...come on, that's not going to stand up in court. It's circumstantial at best. She could say she was lying for attention, it was a joke, somebody else used her account, or claim she miscarried after she told her friend. This would all be a gigantic waste of our legal system's time, and people know better than this.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with abortion, but the reason she would wear different cloths is that a side-effect of the recovery medication makes her skin sensitive to sunlight and easy to burn for about a week.

You claim that there is absolutely no way to tell, and whenever anyone gives examples of cluse, you take one clue and say it will never win the case.

Well no ****.

As was argued, many clues together, of any crime, can establish 'probable cause' and enable a deeper investigation.

 

[kerussll]

I'm not sure how familiar you are with abortion, but the reason she would wear different cloths is that a side-effect of the recovery medication makes her skin sensitive to sunlight and easy to burn for about a week.

You claim that there is absolutely no way to tell, and whenever anyone gives examples of cluse, you take one clue and say it will never win the case.

Well no ****.

As was argued, many clues together, of any crime, can establish 'probable cause' and enable a deeper investigation.

Yes, there are ways you can suspect pregnancy. I'm saying it would be very difficult to prove in court. The examples you have given wouldn't be enough to get a conviction. One example of circumstantial evidence isn't enough, and several together isn't enough. What recovery medicine are you speaking of? Do you have a link?

 

[tryreading]

Getting back on topic...
With the premise that abortion is harmful to the woman, while not establishing the unborn as a "person", I hold that the physician and assisting staff distributing said harm should each face a class 5 felony, and the mother be ordered to attend counseling to address the root problems leading to the abortion.

Assuming this premise, do you suggest a different penalty?

Yes, no penalty. If abortion is harmful to the woman but she still chooses it, I think she has accepted the risk that would be involved. You have not made abortion illegal, right, only harmful emotionally? So no counseling, unless she chooses to be counseled, and of course no penalty for the doctor.

 

[Jerry]

Yes, there are ways you can suspect pregnancy. I'm saying it would be very difficult to prove in court. The examples you have given wouldn't be enough to get a conviction. One example of circumstantial evidence isn't enough, and several together isn't enough. What recovery medicine are you speaking of? Do you have a link?

During the mid 90s, my then fiance' had 2 abortions. Each time, whatever prescription they gave her had the side effect of increased sensitivity to the sun. She was not supposed to go outside during the day, and if curtains were open she was supposed to be covered up.

Still in high-school, we both lived with my mother (long story), and it was very difficult to rationalize to my pro-life mother why my finance' was wearing pants and long sleeves in the California summer. It was equally difficult to excuse why she wouldn't go outside during those gorgeous days.

Anyone living in close proximity of a woman who has had an abortion will see clues that something is going on, even if they can't identity exactly what. My mother suspected something, and tried to confront me to find out what was going on, but I'm not a rat.

If I knew the name of the medication then, I don't know it now, and obviously I have no record of the abortion. So, between that and my lack of interest in searching possible medications to guess, I don't know what she was taking.

 

[kerussll]

During the mid 90s, my then fiance' had 2 abortions. Each time, whatever prescription they gave her had the side effect of increased sensitivity to the sun. She was not supposed to go outside during the day, and if curtains were open she was supposed to be covered up.

Still in high-school, we both lived with my mother (long story), and it was very difficult to rationalize to my pro-life mother why my finance' was wearing pants and long sleeves in the California summer. It was equally difficult to excuse why she wouldn't go outside during those gorgeous days.

Anyone living in close proximity of a woman who has had an abortion will see clues that something is going on, even if they can't identity exactly what. My mother suspected something, and tried to confront me to find out what was going on, but I'm not a rat.

If I knew the name of the medication then, I don't know it now, and obviously I have no record of the abortion. So, between that and my lack of interest in searching possible medications to guess, I don't know what she was taking.

Hmm, I have no idea what that could have been. The only medication I would imagine women would take after an abortion might be prophylactic antibiotics to prevent infection. Some of those can make you sensitive to the sun, but not to that degree.

On another note, were you as opposed to abortion then as you are now? Why did you stick around to get her pregnant again?

 

[Jerry]

On another note, were you as opposed to abortion then as you are now?

Oh hell no. However, I can't say I was pro-choice because, like most teens, my political views were few and shallow. I wasn't knowledgeable enough on the topic to qualify as either side at the time. All I knew was I didn't want kids with our family backgrounds. I held no deep philosophical ideas of her 'right' or the unborn's 'life', I was in it for me and hopefully she wouldn't get to hurt in the process; but if she did, it was better than having kids, so ok.

She was on the fence, and I actually talked her into getting an abortion because I didn't want kids. Yes, in the end it was her choice, it's not like a stuck a gun to her head or threatened her or anything, but I had a position and I convinced her of it. Besides, where did she have to go, what choice did she really have? She had run away from abusive home (again), the rest of her family were poor and out-of-state....I was all she had, I knew it, and I used that to my advantage.

She had her games with me, too, but I'm just saying my hands weren't clean. Ours was a co-dependent relationship, doomed from the start.

Why did you stick around to get her pregnant again?

I stuck around to have her as my girlfriend.....getting her pregnant again was an accident.

 

[kerussll]

That's a sad story, Jerry. I was curious about your views back then, and whether or not you agreed to the abortions. Thanks for sharing