What Needs To Be Talked About - How Far Are We Willing To Go?

[PirateMk1]

The problem is MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction.

The real question is how far is Putin willing to go.

Makes ya wish we built the SDI system eh?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Nonetheless, the reality is that what Putin is doing in Ukraine is basically genocide. We are seeing innocent people not only killed but targeted. At what point do we actually defend the rights of people to "live". At what point do we give up on our idea of Democracy, which we have not only represented for 247 years but have been the example-to-the-world of what Democracy means to all humanity. Do we give up on that?

Care must be taken (and is) as to which (currently occurring) ‘genocides’ deserve a US military response. The US was very slow to enter WWII despite Hitler’s obvious genocide.

5 genocides that are still going on today

Ratko Mladić, the leader of the Bosnian Serb Army during the Bosnian Civil War, was just convicted by the Hague. Here are 5 genocides still going on today.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[ttwtt78640]

The problem is MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction.

The real question is how far is Putin willing to go.

IMHO, Putin has placed himself in the position of having to go ‘all in’. The only question is: what would cause him to do so?

 

[Ikari]

IMHO, Putin has placed himself in the position of having to go ‘all in’. The only question is: what would cause him to do so?

He's a delusional, power hungry, narcissistic twat who surrounded himself with yes-men for so long that he believes everything he thinks is the best thing and cannot be stopped.

 

[Peacenik]

Nonetheless, the reality is that what Putin is doing in Ukraine is basically genocide. We are seeing innocent people not only killed but targeted. At what point do we actually defend the rights of people to "live". At what point do we give up on our idea of Democracy, which we have not only represented for 247 years but have been the example-to-the-world of what Democracy means to all humanity. Do we give up on that?

The entire rest of the world could have contributed troops to create a matching build up in Ukraine as Russia built up. That would have sent the message that the world is serious about maintaining peace and national sovereignty. It also would have been like a ticking timebomb. Two massive armies armed to the hilt and staring one another down across a border. An incredibly dangerous situation. Particularly when both sides have nuclear capability.

It's probably a good thing that did not happen.

I like the sanctions approach. As the world becomes more economically interconnected, sanctions are more powerful. The world progresses together through modern trade, so being cut off from the rest of trade is a big set-back for any nation. Look at how backward most of North Korea is.

Putin is already feeling the economic pinch and it is only going to increase. Many Russian people are really pissed at him. Every once in a while the Russian people rise up against their leader. Putin only started this war because he was losing support.

Russian leaders Paul I, Alexander II, and Nicholas II, were all killed by Russians who were unhappy with their leader.

Putin's approval has only been falling since the war began. Many Russians have friends and relatives in Ukraine. The Russian military does not seem to be very enthusiastic about being in this war of aggression.

 

[Peacenik]

Makes ya wish we built the SDI system eh?

The one that didn't work? No. We would be better off engaging in a full-on effort to bring world peace and make everyone happy. Diminish the power of the rich. Feed the poor. Share the wealth of the world so that everyone has their basic needs met. That would end overpopulation and solve the many problems associated with it.

 

[Rexedgar]

My question is “what are the western countries waiting to happen before we use all the sanctions/measure at our disposal?”


I keep hearing, “we have sanctions/measure that we haven’t used yet?”

 

[ttwtt78640]

He's a delusional, power hungry, narcissistic twat who surrounded himself with yes-men for so long that he believes everything he thinks is the best thing and cannot be stopped.

OK, but if you firmly believe that Putin will not stop (after only taking ‘back’ Ukraine) then there is no logical reason to allow him to take Ukraine.

 

[PirateMk1]

The one that didn't work? No. We would be better off engaging in a full-on effort to bring world peace and make everyone happy. Diminish the power of the rich. Feed the poor. Share the wealth of the world so that everyone has their basic needs met. That would end overpopulation and solve the many problems associated with it.

It worked fine. It was just really expensive.

 

[Peacenik]

IMHO, Putin has placed himself in the position of having to go ‘all in’. The only question is: what would cause him to do so?

Seems like a common question. I never understood why the powerful, once they achieve success, don't simply stop and enjoy what they've accumulated. They seem to thrive on being busy. They can't relax and enjoy. I feel sorry for them. Putin had it all. Now he appears to be willing to throw it away. Same thing with Trump. If he was smart, he never would have sought the presidency.

 

[Ikari]

OK, but if you firmly believe that Putin will not stop (after only taking ‘back’ Ukraine) then there is no logical reason to allow him to take Ukraine.

Well logically he shouldn't be allowed to take Ukraine. That's why we're playing pushing this united, global response of sanctions and punishments. But I don't think we should jump beyond the event horizon here.

I think Putin screwed the pooch on this. Even "victory" here for him won't be good. He won't be able to hold Ukraine even if he takes it. He can try to partition Ukraine but that's not going to be stable either.

And all the while, he's pushing other nations like Finland and Sweden into stronger alliance with Europe and NATO, turning the world against Russia, and the economic sanctions are crushing Russia. At this point, Putin may try to grind this out, but the Russian resolve to do so and support from home is going to dissolve. Putin may find himself in political trouble in Russia itself.

 

[Luckyone]

No. This is not "genocide". If you think what is happening in Ukraine is genocide, then you do not appreciate what that word means.

What we are watching is war. War is ugly. Innocent people die. Russia is invading unprovoked and it is wrong. But this is NOT genocide.

And as for at what point "we" defend the rights of people to live - "we" (as the United States) have treaties and alliances around the globe where "we" defend the rights of people to live. Unfortunately for Ukraine, they are not a part of those treaties/alliances.

No one is "giving up" on democracy. The entire world is attempting to prevent an escalation to WW3 and nuclear war.

That is what you are watching. That is why governments around the world are sanctioning Russia and providing assistance to Ukraine.

The amount of innocent people that would die if this escalates is unfathomable.

I understand that using the word "genocide" might be wrong but everything else is correct. The reality is that Putin is attacking innocent people for no reason and that is not something that anyone of us should allow anyone else to do for the simple principle of it. Nonetheless, killing of innocent people happens all the time and no nation should be responsible for making it stop as it is somewhat a fact of life. In this case though, this is different because this is not just one nation and not just a few people. Putin is a nuclear power and if allowed to do what he wants on "this" occasion, the probabilities "strongly favor" that he will continue and do it again and again and again and the problem with that is that once you allow a strong man to do what he wants without stopping him, you open the door for every nation being a target and if you start picking up nation after nation, you suddenly find yourself losing the power to stop him.

I do know that the nations are doing what they can right now and going further at this time may not be wise. Nonetheless, it is the "principle" of what he is doing that needs to be stopped. What it to stop others (like China) from joining Putin and making it twice (or more) more difficult to stop him. If Russia is successful with Ukraine, what is to stop China from going for Taiwan................and then both of them start going after NATO. If that not a worse situation than what is being seen now?

If you do not defend the principle, then you lose the reason for fighting. If you no longer believe that Democracy is important, why would you not "join" the other side? the strong side that is winning?

 

[BirdinHand]

I understand that using the word "genocide" might be wrong but everything else is correct. The reality is that Putin is attacking innocent people for no reason and that is not something that anyone of us should allow anyone else to do for the simple principle of it. Nonetheless, killing of innocent people happens all the time and no nation should be responsible for making it stop as it is somewhat a fact of life. In this case though, this is different because this is not just one nation and not just a few people. Putin is a nuclear power and if allowed to do what he wants on "this" occasion, the probabilities "strongly favor" that he will continue and do it again and again and again and the problem with that is that once you allow a strong man to do what he wants without stopping him, you open the door for every nation being a target and if you start picking up nation after nation, you suddenly find yourself losing the power to stop him.

I do know that the nations are doing what they can right now and going further at this time may not be wise. Nonetheless, it is the "principle" of what he is doing that needs to be stopped. What it to stop others (like China) from joining Putin and making it twice (or more) more difficult to stop him. If Russia is successful with Ukraine, what is to stop China from going for Taiwan................and then both of them start going after NATO. If that not a worse situation than what is being seen now?

If you do not defend the principle, then you lose the reason for fighting. If you no longer believe that Democracy is important, why would you not "join" the other side? the strong side that is winning?

I don’t view Russia as “winning” this.

Yes, they will very likely win the on the ground battles. But Russia itself is going to be crushed financially by sanctions.

China and Taiwan are a different story.

Let’s not invite more issues for the sake of a hypothetical conversation - the realities facing the world right now are more than enough to deal with one day at a time.

 

[Luckyone]

The entire rest of the world could have contributed troops to create a matching build up in Ukraine as Russia built up. That would have sent the message that the world is serious about maintaining peace and national sovereignty. It also would have been like a ticking timebomb. Two massive armies armed to the hilt and staring one another down across a border. An incredibly dangerous situation. Particularly when both sides have nuclear capability.

It's probably a good thing that did not happen.

I like the sanctions approach. As the world becomes more economically interconnected, sanctions are more powerful. The world progresses together through modern trade, so being cut off from the rest of trade is a big set-back for any nation. Look at how backward most of North Korea is.

Putin is already feeling the economic pinch and it is only going to increase. Many Russian people are really pissed at him. Every once in a while the Russian people rise up against their leader. Putin only started this war because he was losing support.

Russian leaders Paul I, Alexander II, and Nicholas II, were all killed by Russians who were unhappy with their leader.

Putin's approval has only been falling since the war began. Many Russians have friends and relatives in Ukraine. The Russian military does not seem to be very enthusiastic about being in this war of aggression.

Do not ever expect victory when going against a blind-by-choice zealot that believes he is right and everyone else is wrong and has the power to make a statement.

For example, when was the last time you were able to convince a Trumper of anything they did not want to believe, even when shown proof to the contrary?

This is no different.

I am not criticizing what is being done. In fact, I agree with it. Nonetheless, I have a "feeling" that it is not going to have the expected success and when we find that out, we will be in a worse place than where are a now.

 

[Rexedgar]

I don’t view Russia as “winning” this.

Yes, they will very likely win the on the ground battles. But Russia itself is going to be crushed financially by sanctions.

China and Taiwan are a different story.

Let’s not invite more issues for the sake of a hypothetical conversation - the realities facing the world right now are more than enough to deal with one day at a time.

You haven’t heard Pompeo’s Taiwan speech yet?

Pompeo calls for US to recognize Taiwan as ‘free and sovereign country’

Former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo urged the United States to recognize Taiwan as a “free and sovereign country,” hours after Pompeo met with Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-wen, who awarded h…

thehill.com

 

[Felis Leo]

Hmm… are you saying that Estonia is?

Yes. Because if we say "Well, we would be willing to go toe-to-toe with Russia for attacking some of our allies but not others" then alliances are meaningless.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Well logically he shouldn't be allowed to take Ukraine. That's why we're playing pushing this united, global response of sanctions and punishments. But I don't think we should jump beyond the event horizon here.

I think Putin screwed the pooch on this. Even "victory" here for him won't be good. He won't be able to hold Ukraine even if he takes it. He can try to partition Ukraine but that's not going to be stable either.

And all the while, he's pushing other nations like Finland and Sweden into stronger alliance with Europe and NATO, turning the world against Russia, and the economic sanctions are crushing Russia. At this point, Putin may try to grind this out, but the Russian resolve to do so and support from home is going to dissolve. Putin may find himself in political trouble in Russia itself.

I’m not at all sure how willing European nations are to significantly cut trade with Russia - for many of them it would mean loss of utility services and ridiculously high motor fuel prices.

 

[Luckyone]

I don’t view Russia as “winning” this.

Yes, they will very likely win the on the ground battles. But Russia itself is going to be crushed financially by sanctions.

China and Taiwan are a different story.

Let’s not invite more issues for the sake of a hypothetical conversation - the realities facing the world right now are more than enough to deal with one day at a time.

What you call hypotheticals, I call evaluating all the "real" possibilities. If you do not have a Plan B and a Plan C, then you are incompetent. Ever heard of Murphy's Law?

Murphy's Law = Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong!

 

[Peacenik]

It worked fine. It was just really expensive.

I recall failed tests and faked results.

 

[Peacenik]

Do not ever expect victory when going against a blind-by-choice zealot that believes he is right and everyone else is wrong and has the power to make a statement.

For example, when was the last time you were able to convince a Trumper of anything they did not want to believe, even when shown proof to the contrary?

This is no different.

I am not criticizing what is being done. In fact, I agree with it. Nonetheless, I have a "feeling" that it is not going to have the expected success and when we find that out, we will be in a worse place than where are a now.

Everyone shares a concern that the outlook is alarming. The approach taken thus far is also quite popular.

 

[Lutherf]

It's not our fight. I am not willing to have a single soldier die fighting there.

However supplying aid to Ukraine, even if it risks nuclear war, we should do. If we are held ransom by threats of nuclear war, we might as well roll over and die anyway.

Same thing with sanctions. its our right to not trade with Russia. If they can force us to trade with them out of fear of death, we have already lost the world and died inside anyway.

I'm will take my chances. If nuclear war hits, so be it.

Asked on what I read around here, anything more than a good, firm finger wagging is provocative and might start a war

 

[Luckyone]

Everyone shares a concern that the outlook is alarming. The approach taken thus far is also quite popular.

Well, something being "popular" is not necessarily being "successful". Most people do not use their minds when approaching a problem. They use their feelings and feelings usually do not work well when having to make tough decisions that are likely to bring success (instead of just looking good/popular).

Before all of this happened, I was 100% convinced that Putin would not actually invade Ukraine. I thought he was an intelligent and calculating person that would "huff and puff" but would not actually do something stupid because his "balls" wanted him to do it.

I was WRONG! meaning that I now believe that Putin is even willing to die and have his nation die with him to make the statement he wants to make. He does not value life one iota. He values fame, notoriety, and fulfilling his "macho" instincts.

The only way to stop that is by not allowing him to have "any" success.

 

[Peacenik]

Well, something being "popular" is not necessarily being "successful". Most people do not use their minds when approaching a problem. They use their feelings and feelings usually do not work well when having to make tough decisions that are likely to bring success (instead of just looking good/popular).

Before all of this happened, I was 100% convinced that Putin would not actually invade Ukraine. I thought he was an intelligent and calculating person that would "huff and puff" but would not actually do something stupid because his "balls" wanted him to do it.

I was WRONG! meaning that I now believe that Putin is even willing to die and have his nation die with him to make the statement he wants to make. He does not value life one iota. He values fame, notoriety, and fulfilling his "macho" instincts.

The only way to stop that is by not allowing him to have "any" success.

I am not surprised he went through with it. There would be no point in amassing an attack force only to back off. I agree he seems to have a do or die attitude. Hopefully some Russians will grant him his wish, as as happened so many times in Russian history.

 

[BirdinHand]

Well, something being "popular" is not necessarily being "successful". Most people do not use their minds when approaching a problem. They use their feelings and feelings usually do not work well when having to make tough decisions that are likely to bring success (instead of just looking good/popular).

Before all of this happened, I was 100% convinced that Putin would not actually invade Ukraine. I thought he was an intelligent and calculating person that would "huff and puff" but would not actually do something stupid because his "balls" wanted him to do it.

I was WRONG! meaning that I now believe that Putin is even willing to die and have his nation die with him to make the statement he wants to make. He does not value life one iota. He values fame, notoriety, and fulfilling his "macho" instincts.

The only way to stop that is by not allowing him to have "any" success.

Most knew that Putin *would* go into Ukraine though.

Ukraine isn’t protected by NATO.

Will Putin go further than Ukraine? No, not likely.

 

[Ren]

The question that is being asked right now by "everybody" is how far are we willing to go to stop Putin.

Are we, (as Americans) willing to?

1) pay higher gasoline prices?
2) have higher inflation?
3) put ourselves and our friends that are soldiers at risk of dying in a war with Putin?
4) put our lives (and that of our loved ones) at risk of dying due to a nuclear war?

Are we, (as U.S. Corporations) willing to?

1) willing to risk/lose profits?
2) willing to lose client base that gives us big profits (Russia)?

Are we, (as the U.S. government) willing to?

1) go into a world war?
2) send troops to die?
3) put our country at risk of millions of deaths from a nuclear attack

Bottom line is that it seems that Putin is willing to do all of the above to accomplish his goal and the only way to stop him is willing to go as far as he is willing to go. We are stronger militarily than he is, meaning that the probabilities of stopping Putin are high if we are willing to do the same he is doing.

So they question is: How far are we willing to go?

One caveat. This is not about what we are willing to put "others" at risk or at blame (like blaming Biden or blaming others for not having the balls), it is about how far each of us is willing to go to stop Putin!

I'm not sure we should be doing anything right now. America is in a weird place with all this wokeness bullshit marching through the country. Let's purge that disease first, then we can get back to world affairs.