• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

What matches your definition of the word racist?

What matches your definition of the word racist?


  • Total voters
    32
You miss the whole core of the issue which is Internalized Racism.(1)

I didn't miss it. I acknowledged it, addressed it, and incorperated it into my argument. What you are missing is that Internalized racism has become a part of black culture:

Internalized oppression is this turning upon ourselves, upon our families, and upon our own people the distress patterns that result from the racism and oppression of the majority society.

Today, many of these responses to mistreatment have become embedded in our culture, but they no longer serve a useful function. Instead, these so-called "elements of black culture" operate to lock us into our roles as victims of oppression.

These self acknowledged internal cultural elements are responsible for many of the woes which you would attribute instead to white oppression. The only person who can heal the distress patterns from a traumatic experience is the trauma victim themself. No amount of aggressive Affirmative Action can cure this.

The result has been that these distress patterns, created by oppression and racism from the outside, have been played out in the only two places it has seemed "safe" to do so. First, upon members of our own group - particularly upon those over whom we have some degree of power or control, our children.

Playing out distress patterns on children is sick. I don't buy for a minute this BS about how black parents have no control over how they treat their own children.

"Its not our fault that we are taking out our self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, fear, feelings of powerlessness, and despair on our children. Its da white mans fault! He started it!" :roll:

19th century white society gave Asians plenty of distress patterns, but as a culture they directed their angst in more constructive ways and didn't make excuses.

You don't get to choose whether or not you become a victim, but you do get to choose whether or not to remain a victim.

Who created those stereotypes that lead to terms like "oreo'? Whites.

BS. We didn't create stereotypes for ourselves on what "acting white" was. We didn't define how to "act black." We didn't select the criteria by which blacks would ostricize other blacks, and we certainly didn't decide to start ostricizing folks for having a mastery of the English language.

This is something white america can't understand. We have trouble understanding it.

I don't have trouble understanding it. Victim mentality is a fairly well documented phenomena. What I have trouble understainding is how you think the perpetuation of racial conflict will salve anything.

You wan't to know how it feels to be black in america? To paraphrase Cornell West. The same way the nation felt on 9/11.

What, you mean that whenever someone points out our own potential missteps in middle eastern foreign policy and makes an honest effort to understand the motivations behind 9/11 other than "tehy hate us fur are freeeedom!" such a person is called "anti-american," or "traitor," or part of the "blame america first" crowd?

Nice analogy. When somone like Doctor Cosby suggests taking a critical look at the values being promoted in your own culture, his voice is maginalized by folks saying he is just a comedian and doesn't know what he is talking about because white culture is evil and black culture is perfect.

But what aspect of black culture has grew from oppression? Hiphop. And all people talk about how bad hiphop is and how it causes all these problems. **** that. Hip hop grew from these problems.

Perhaps you should take that argument to somone who will actually debate it. Art reflects life and life reflects art, and I don't expect anything more or less from it. My only problem with Hiphop is that it sucks.

Jazz also grew from oppression, the Blues also grew from oppression, but unlike hip hop, they were beautiful and influential and displayed actual musicianship.

But I love every time this conversation arises Bill Cosby is always quoted. Bill Cosby is a comedian.

If you will recall, this conversation is with regards to the emphasis on
education
in black culture. Doctor Cosby has his doctorate in education, as opposed to Cornell West, who as far as I can tell has his Ph.D in socialsit nonsense and race-baiting.

You don't quote someone who knows what there talking about. It's always BIll Cosby.

As opposed to Cornell West who made a carreer out of studying something that no longer exists in any meaningful way?

I quoted Doctor Cosby in a discussion on value placed on education in the black community. And you want to claim that a member of the black community who also happens to be a Doctor of Education is not qualified to speak on the subject?

Your attempts to marginalize Doctor Cosby are laughable at best, if not downright desperate.
 
I didn't miss it. I acknowledged it, addressed it, and incorperated it into my argument. What you are missing is that Internalized racism has become a part of black culture:





These self acknowledged internal cultural elements are responsible for many of the woes which you would attribute instead to white oppression. The only person who can heal the distress patterns from a traumatic experience is the trauma victim themself. No amount of aggressive Affirmative Action can cure this.



Playing out distress patterns on children is sick. I don't buy for a minute this BS about how black parents have no control over how they treat their own children.

"Its not our fault that we are taking out our self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, fear, feelings of powerlessness, and despair on our children. Its da white mans fault! He started it!" :roll:

19th century white society gave Asians plenty of distress patterns, but as a culture they directed their angst in more constructive ways and didn't make excuses.

You don't get to choose whether or not you become a victim, but you do get to choose whether or not to remain a victim.



BS. We didn't create stereotypes for ourselves on what "acting white" was. We didn't define how to "act black." We didn't select the criteria by which blacks would ostricize other blacks, and we certainly didn't decide to start ostricizing folks for having a mastery of the English language.



I don't have trouble understanding it. Victim mentality is a fairly well documented phenomena. What I have trouble understainding is how you think the perpetuation of racial conflict will salve anything.



What, you mean that whenever someone points out our own potential missteps in middle eastern foreign policy and makes an honest effort to understand the motivations behind 9/11 other than "tehy hate us fur are freeeedom!" such a person is called "anti-american," or "traitor," or part of the "blame america first" crowd?

Nice analogy. When somone like Doctor Cosby suggests taking a critical look at the values being promoted in your own culture, his voice is maginalized by folks saying he is just a comedian and doesn't know what he is talking about because white culture is evil and black culture is perfect.



Perhaps you should take that argument to somone who will actually debate it. Art reflects life and life reflects art, and I don't expect anything more or less from it. My only problem with Hiphop is that it sucks.

Jazz also grew from oppression, the Blues also grew from oppression, but unlike hip hop, they were beautiful and influential and displayed actual musicianship.



If you will recall, this conversation is with regards to the emphasis on in black culture. Doctor Cosby has his doctorate in education, as opposed to Cornell West, who as far as I can tell has his Ph.D in socialsit nonsense and race-baiting.



As opposed to Cornell West who made a carreer out of studying something that no longer exists in any meaningful way?

I quoted Doctor Cosby in a discussion on value placed on education in the black community. And you want to claim that a member of the black community who also happens to be a Doctor of Education is not qualified to speak on the subject?

Your attempts to marginalize Doctor Cosby are laughable at best, if not downright desperate.

I think I love you.
 
It tells the exact oppisite. When you take two kids with the same GPA, the same SAT scores. When they should have the same oppurtuntites whether its a 2400 or a 1000 on the SAT the black kid is more likely to graduate from college. How is that not valueing education? When oppurtunites are controled how is the black kid being more likely to graduate not valueing education?

Let us hypothetically divide children into two catagories: Those who value education and those who do not.

What would we expect to see from the children who value education? We would expect high academic achievement and we would expect a large portion of them to attend and graduate from college.

What would we expect from those who do not value education? We would expect low academic achievement and we would expect very few of them to attend or graduate from college.

Now, if your theory were correct, we would expect an equal or higher percentage of black children to fall into the former catagory rather than the latter.

For simplicities sake, lets say that those in the former catagory have a 4.0 GPA and those in the latter a 1.5. If there is and equal percentage of black children in both catagories, and a higher percentage of those in each catagory go on to complete college, it means that without the need for any qualifier we could say that a higher percentage of blacks graduate college.

This isn't the case though.

The report finds that blacks completed college at a rate 13-19 percentage points lower than whites.

Now lets suppose just for the moment that I am correct, what would we expect to see?

Well, if internalized oppression manifests itself in black culture as a lack of emphasis in education, we would expect a higher percentage in the latter catagory compared to whites.

Suppose that 75% of white children have a 4.0 because they value education, and 25% have a 1.5 because they don't.

Now suppose that 25% of black children have a 4.0 because they value education, and 75% have a 1.5 because they don't.

If 100% of black children who value education enough to get a 4.0 have the drive to complete college, thats 25% of black children.

If 8% of the black children who don't value it enough to get above a 1.5 go on to college anyways, that is 6% of black children.

So we are left with 31% black children graduating from college.

If only 66% of white kids who value education have what it takes to make it through college, thats still 50% of white kids graduating college.

If only 4% of those who don't value education enough to get above a 1.5 go to college, thats 1% of white kids.

So we are left with 51% of white kids graduating college versus 31% of black kids, even though a higher percent of black kids in both catagories go on to complete their education.

Your still missing what internalized racism is.

How so? Black parents impose distress patterns on their children, polarizing them to either accept the self-perpetuated stereotype and reject education, or to defy the stereotype and embrace education. It is not suprising that a higher percentage would accept the stereotype, and it is equally unsurprising that those who defied it would be greatly motivated to complete their education.

I'll take care o thes and more in my next post.

I couldn't find the link your following post.

Even after a long conversation on the diffrence between social and biological races you still can't get it. Just like you said. You can look at someone and most of the time tell if their black. The same way you see people everyone else in america sees people. You see someone as black. I usually will see that same person as black. Bush will usually see that person as black. Ron Paul will see that person as black. We all grew up in the same society, we will all tend to classify races in the same way.

But if we classify them arbitrarily without any actually physical or biological standard, races are undefinable, and cannot be used for the purpose of policy. So how black would you have to be to qualify for AA benfits?

That doesn't matter because people with black names don't get preferential treatment from AA. Black people do.

You are the one who brought up "black names." If you think it is unjust that people who "sound black" are being stereotyped against, then why do you not want to make a counter bias in favor of people who "sound black?"

So because blacks have higher representation in the NBA and NFL everything is fair? Because blacks overachieve in one area everything is fair? The system of white privilige is very much alive.(2)(3)

You missed the point. Representation is a poor barometer for how fair things are. Can a white person become a basketball superstar? Yes they can. Can a black person become a millionaire stockbroker? Yes they can. That is a measure of how fair things are.

Just because a higher percentage of Vietnamese ladies work in Nail Salons than black men, that doesn't mean that Vietnamese ladies have set up an instituationalized mechanism to keep black men from their dreams of becoming world famous manicurists.:roll:

I promote an idea of racial inequity and promote racial tension?

Actually the word I used was "perpetuate," but yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Ha. Sorry. When sutdy after study after study shows that racism is still very alive what am I supposed to do?

You could try emphasising the need for parents to encourage their children to invest in educating themselves, rather than telling them it isn't their fault that they take out their feelings of self-doubt, invalidation and fear out on their own kids.

You could try attacking the poisonous notion that blacks need to be coddled and given special attention in order to become equal participants in society. You could encourage black parents to start their kids on the Susuki violin method at the age of three.

Blacks have every opportunity to become another "model minority" as you call it.
 
Last edited:
You remember that link I posted about in-group bias? That gos for everyone, not just racist people. Unless you intentionally hire a even share of people from other groups you most likely won't. This about racism, this is the way people are.

Your source shows in-group bias for arbitrary single-factor group criteria. It does not study the interaction of multiple-factor arbitrary and selected group criteria.

In orther words, if you say, "Ok, you guys on the red team start evaluating eachother and then evaluate the folks on the blue team." You will find in group bias.

On the other hand, if the experiment said, "Ok, you are on the red team, and you are on the tall team, and you are on the male team. Your task is to form a new team which we will term the Apple team. The Apple team will then compete in a chess tournament against the orange team to see who wins the Million dollar prize money. Go!" That would be a bit more telling of what criteria people use to evaluate people.

Which in group bias do you use to pick your team mates?

Do you seek to form a team with people who are also on the red team regardless of whether they are short or tall, male or female?

Do you seek to form a team with other males regardless of whether they are short or tall, red or green?

Do you seek to form a team with other tall folk, regardless of whether they are red or green, male or female?

Or do you pick whoever plays the best game of chess, even if they are a short green female?

Show me the results of an experiment like that and I will lend more credence to its application in the real world.

Because it isn't socially acceptable anymore.

Why isn't it socially acceptable anymore?

All people hold in-group biases. Whites aren't going to hire extra black workers if they don't have to.

Whites will hire black workers when they think they can benefit from it. Why are so many white folk concerned about Hispanic folk coming in and stealing their jobs? Shouldn't in group bias make predominantly white employers hire white folk instead? It doesn't seem to be playing out that way.

This is clearly evident or black unemployment rates wouldn't be higher and income gaps wouldn't exist.

Thats a ridiculous argument. There is an income gap between asians and whites. Does that mean that the majority of employers in the US have historically been asian and that whites have never been given the chance to succeed?

If in-group bias is so strong, explain why asians are at the top of the income food chain. Shouldn't whites be trying to avoid hiring asians except when they absolutely have to?

See above. Blacks tend to posses less wealth than whites so it is much harder for them to start new buisnesses.

Whites tend to possess less wealth than asians, so it is much harder for them to start a new business. Boo hoo. There have been plenty of blacks who started with nothing and built themselves some very lucrative businesses.
 
I didn't miss it. I acknowledged it, addressed it, and incorperated it into my argument. What you are missing is that Internalized racism has become a part of black culture:

These self acknowledged internal cultural elements are responsible for many of the woes which you would attribute instead to white oppression. The only person who can heal the distress patterns from a traumatic experience is the trauma victim themself. No amount of aggressive Affirmative Action can cure this.

Your simply blaming the victim. Those "cultural elements" are the effect of internalized racism, they are the effect of white oppression. Yes only blacks can overcome internilized oppression but the trauma isn't from racism long ago. It is from the racism everyday.(1) But whenever a movement starts to do just that, it is quickly stopped. When Malxolm X told that white girl that she couldn't help blacks in their struggle how did white america respond? They called him a racist against whites and then he was killed. What happened when Steve Biko did the same thing in South Africa? He was killed. The thing is without a widespread movemnt that oppression will exist. But yet whites whites don't seem to want that to happen. Why? Because it's a threat to the system. Because it's a threat to their way of life. Because when that intrenalized oppression is gone the white power structure will fall.



Playing out distress patterns on children is sick. I don't buy for a minute this BS about how black parents have no control over how they treat their own children.

Your blaming blacks for doing exactly what internalized racism is supposed to do. It is very difficult to relize what the effects of these actions are. Blacks develop these patterns and act them out on their children because thats how the patterns work. You seriously think blacks have control over the developments of these patterns?

"Its not our fault that we are taking out our self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, fear, feelings of powerlessness, and despair on our children. Its da white mans fault! He started it!" :roll:

If that self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, and fear are a result of white supremacy then yes it is the white mans fault. But people like you want to wipe societies hands clean of it. Whites created it and now you say blacks should be the responsibility of blacks to fix it. Blame the victim, thats all you know how to do. You don't remove that internalized racism by blaming the victim and increasing those feelings. You remove it by removing the white racism. But people like you don't want to remove that because its a threat to your way of life. But when Ron Paul says the civil rights act is illegal you and your libertarians ran to defend him. "He's not bigoted." **** that.

19th century white society gave Asians plenty of distress patterns, but as a culture they directed their angst in more constructive ways and didn't make excuses.

The income index for asians have been recently skewed. Recent asian immigration has brought high-skilled workers to the US in very large numbers.(3) These immigrants come iwth wealth and training that many blacks and past waves of asian immigration don't have. Their are asians that exhibit the same behaviors as blacks, that are on the negative end of the disparity, the recent immigration just hides it.

You don't get to choose whether or not you become a victim, but you do get to choose whether or not to remain a victim.

You don't understand how much energy is wasted everyday combating racism. It takes a toll on you. Living with that racism has had terrible physical and emotional effects on the black community. Everyday blacks are victims of racism, everyday. But everytime I try to speak out against it whites tell me I'm overreacting. That I'm just imaginig it. Yea. That's it.

BS. We didn't create stereotypes for ourselves on what "acting white" was. We didn't define how to "act black." We didn't select the criteria by which blacks would ostricize other blacks, and we certainly didn't decide to start ostricizing folks for having a mastery of the English language.

Who portrayed us as stupid and savage? Who drew charicatures and painted their faces black to make fun of us? Who threw us into the ghettos and tells us that were not smart enough or we don't try hard enough and that we deserve to be there?

I don't have trouble understanding it. Victim mentality is a fairly well documented phenomena. What I have trouble understainding is how you think the perpetuation of racial conflict will salve anything.

It's one thing to read about it or hear about it. It's another thing entirely to live it. Why do I think that racial conflict will solve things? You know I would love to live in a fair society. I would love if white would dismantle white supremacy. But thats not the current reality. And if whites aren't going to give us a fair society then we have to demand it.

[uote]What, you mean that whenever someone points out our own potential missteps in middle eastern foreign policy and makes an honest effort to understand the motivations behind 9/11 other than "tehy hate us fur are freeeedom!" such a person is called "anti-american," or "traitor," or part of the "blame america first" crowd?[/quote]

No what I'm saying is that those people who dies in 9/11 dies not because of what they did but because they were americans. To be black in america is just like that. Your unprotected, and hated just because your black.

Nice analogy. When somone like Doctor Cosby suggests taking a critical look at the values being promoted in your own culture, his voice is maginalized by folks saying he is just a comedian and doesn't know what he is talking about because white culture is evil and black culture is perfect.

Any idiot can say we need to stress education. I wonder how Cosby came up with that groundbraking theory? Cosby just likes to simplify a very complex thing. I don't promote any culture as evil or perfect. White supremacy is evil. And neither culture is perfect. But what can I say to the kids that grow up on the same block as I did. They live in hell. They don't have the same options as the middle class. They grow up with odds stacked against them. They see the peope who make the right choices and still end up on the same block. Their parents work 12 hours a day and don't get ahead. They are the victims of society. You call it an excuse but this is reality. Stress education so that they go to college? Well colleges aren't intended to be choices for them. People are filtered into their positions some can fight it but many won't. So who do you blame? Their parents who don't stress education enough. Their parents are the victims of the same thing that they are. Their put in a hopeless enviorment. Who is responsible for that? SOCIETY. Ghettos don't have to exist. They are the result of housing segregation. The housing segregation of white racism. But no, you demand everything from those who have nothing.

Perhaps you should take that argument to somone who will actually debate it. Art reflects life and life reflects art, and I don't expect anything more or less from it. My only problem with Hiphop is that it sucks.

Jazz also grew from oppression, the Blues also grew from oppression, but unlike hip hop, they were beautiful and influential and displayed actual musicianship.

Hip hop went beyond those. Hip hop is not just an artform, its a way of life. Every black person can relate to it. Every black person can be part of it.

If you will recall, this conversation is with regards to the emphasis on in black culture. Doctor Cosby has his doctorate in education, as opposed to Cornell West, who as far as I can tell has his Ph.D in socialsit nonsense and race-baiting.

Cronell West is a professor of afican american studies. Black culture is the core of his expertise. Not just education. History, polotics, art, religion and black society is were his expertise lies. As oppossed to Cosby who has a doctorate that he doesn't use. A doctorate is nice but its only as valuable as you make. Who attacks those whocan't defend themselves? CosbyWho doesn't right in peer-reviewed works? Cosby Who's show "works to obscure it's viewers understanding of the structual limits on individual mobility in our society.(2) Cosby How about a real academic source?

As opposed to Cornell West who made a carreer out of studying something that no longer exists in any meaningful way?

See above.

I quoted Doctor Cosby in a discussion on value placed on education in the black community. And you want to claim that a member of the black community who also happens to be a Doctor of Education is not qualified to speak on the subject?

In the black community. Something Cosby has lost touch with. Cosby is not an academic and his statements give off a sense of internalized racism. Yea Cosby it's our fault. I want to see Cosby go talk to the kids who worked their asses off in high school and still end up on the same block. Whats Cosby going to tell them? They didn't try hard enough? Get the **** out of hear.

Your attempts to marginalize Doctor Cosby are laughable at best, if not downright desperate.

Stop calling him Doctor Cosby. You do the same thing with Ron Paul. Do I talk about Doctor West and Doctor Bell. No because I don't need to attach credentials to their names. Their names speak for themselves. Cosby is not an academic so don't play him off like one.
 
Your simply blaming the victim. Those "cultural elements" are the effect of internalized racism, they are the effect of white oppression.

Just like people who don't support the war in Iraq are "blaming the victim" for 9/11? Give me a break.

Yes only blacks can overcome internilized oppression but the trauma isn't from racism long ago. It is from the racism everyday.(1)

First of all, the trauma is from black parents who took out their personal trauma on their children. The parents are the ones who got the trauma from white oppression.

White oppression was bad. No doubt. But if I start beating the crap out of my two year old daughter should I be absolved of responsibility just because I had the crap beaten out of me as a kid?

Everyone who perpetuates a pattern of abuse is guilty.

Second of all, your link requires me to pay $14 to view it, and I am not really interested enough in what it has to say to pay.

Your blaming blacks for doing exactly what internalized racism is supposed to do. It is very difficult to relize what the effects of these actions are. Blacks develop these patterns and act them out on their children because thats how the patterns work. You seriously think blacks have control over the developments of these patterns?

Yep. I am sure you will be surprised to hear that I also hold abusive parents responsible for doing exactly what their own childhood trauma gives them a tendency to do.

You know whats even better? Even though trauma makes you seek to re-enact the traumatic experience either as the perpetrator, or as the victim, neither of these actually aids the healing process and in fact reinforces the distress patterns.

If that self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, and fear are a result of white supremacy then yes it is the white mans fault. But people like you want to wipe societies hands clean of it. Whites created it and now you say blacks should be the responsibility of blacks to fix it. Blame the victim, thats all you know how to do.

Actually, its not all I know how to do. I also know how to fly airplanes thanks to my flight instructor, who happens to be black. As far as I can tell, he doesn't even have these feelings of self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, and fear that you claim all black people in America have as a result of being black, and he certainly doesn't take them out on his students. If he had children, I can't imagine he would take it out on them either.

The income index for asians have been recently skewed. Recent asian immigration has brought high-skilled workers to the US in very large numbers.(3) These immigrants come iwth wealth and training that many blacks and past waves of asian immigration don't have. Their are asians that exhibit the same behaviors as blacks, that are on the negative end of the disparity, the recent immigration just hides it.

So? There are whites that exhibit the same behaviors as blacks. Fact of the matter is, asians are outperfroming whites, in a society which you claim is designed to make sure whites outperform everyone.

You don't understand how much energy is wasted everyday combating racism. It takes a toll on you. Living with that racism has had terrible physical and emotional effects on the black community. Everyday blacks are victims of racism, everyday. But everytime I try to speak out against it whites tell me I'm overreacting. That I'm just imaginig it. Yea. That's it.

You don't understand how much energy is wasted everyday keeping the aliens from abducting me. It takes a toll on you. Living with the constant threat of alien abduction has had terrible physical and emotional effects on the human community. Everyday people are victims of alien abduction, everyday. But everytime I try to speak out against it government agents tell me I'm overreacting. That I'm just imaginig it. Yea. That's it.

Who portrayed us as stupid and savage?

50 Cent?

Who drew charicatures and painted their faces black to make fun of us?

Wasn't me. I wasn't even there.

Who threw us into the ghettos and tells us that were not smart enough or we don't try hard enough and that we deserve to be there?

I wasn't even there.

It's one thing to read about it or hear about it. It's another thing entirely to live it. Why do I think that racial conflict will solve things? You know I would love to live in a fair society. I would love if white would dismantle white supremacy. But thats not the current reality. And if whites aren't going to give us a fair society then we have to demand it.

According to you "fairness" means coddling and preferential treatment.

No what I'm saying is that those people who dies in 9/11 dies not because of what they did but because they were americans. To be black in america is just like that. Your unprotected, and hated just because your black.

I don't hate blacks just because they are black. My best friend doesn't hate blacks just because they are black. My flight instructor doesn't hate blacks just because they are black. In fact, I don't personally know anyone who hates blacks.

And how exactly are they undprotected? Is there a caveat to the Bill of rights that says "*except blacks?" Are blacks not allowed to own guns? Are there no attorneys who will represent blacks in court? What kind of protection are you talking about?

Any idiot can say we need to stress education. I wonder how Cosby came up with that groundbraking theory?

I am not sure. He must be a genius or something. Are black parents on average stressing education and getting good grades to their children as much as asians are? I can't find statistics on it, but maybe with your J STOR resources you can:

How many black three year olds are studying Suzuki violin method compared with asian three year olds?

Parents who take out their internalized trauma on their children will reinforce their own distress patterns along with passing them on to their children. Parents who start their children on Suzuki violin method at the age of three not only arn't passing on their distress patterns, but are healing themselves vicariously through their children by directing their emotional turmoil in a productive way.

I doubt any parent has ever felt self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, or fear while they were joining thousands of other people in giving their child a standing ovation at Carnagie Hall.

But what can I say to the kids that grow up on the same block as I did. They live in hell.

Here is what you could say to them:

"Your situation sucks, and you can't get out of it just by working hard. What you got to do is go down to your local bank and ask to open a ROTH IRA. Then save up $5 every day and put it into your IRA account at the end of each month. Or even better, your employer may allow you to have a portion of each paycheck taken out automatically before taxes.

If you want as little risk as possible, have your money put in a CD, or if you want to make it work harder for you, do a self directed investment that will let you invest your money in companies that you believe in. Its only $5 a day, which is the cost of a latte and a bagel, and it means that you can be worry free in your retirement, and that you will have something to leave your kids so that they don't have to go through what you went through."

They are the result of housing segregation. The housing segregation of white racism. But no, you demand everything from those who have nothing.

I started with nothing, and I did not have any in-group bias helping me out. I at least didn't have crappy parents, but I pay for my own education with my own money. I makes sacrifices so that I can invest what I earn, as I have done since before making more than minimum wage.

I never had cable. I don't smoke or drink coffee. I cut unecessary expenses out of my life so that I will be able to provide for my family, and enjoy my retirement.

Hip hop went beyond those. Hip hop is not just an artform, its a way of life. Every black person can relate to it.

Every black person? You mean like Bill Cosby and Condoleze Rice? Would you not think it a bit racist for a white person to say that Hip hop was something that every black person could relate to? Mightn't you think they were painting with too wide a brush?

I hate to break it to you, but there are actually a lot of black people out there with taste.

Cronell West is a professor of afican american studies.

Which is about as useful as a professor of Scandenavian American studies, and only slightly less useful than a professor of Tall People studies.

As if womyns studies wern't enough of a waste of space.

Who attacks those whocan't defend themselves? Cosby

Cosby doesn't attack anyone, he encourages people to take control of their own lives.

Even if you were correct, and due to my own unique circumstances I am blind to the white privilige that is obvious to other people, you really think black people's best option is to wait around asking white people to magically make everything all better?

As you have said:

when that intrenalized oppression is gone the white power structure will fall.

White Americans nowadays are not exactly great at living within their means. Your average white American has thousands of dollars of credit card debt.

A group of people with more self-discipline and sound investement and business sense could fairly easily run away with the power structure which is supposedly currently held by complacent white Americans... Oh wait, they already did.:doh

Its ok though, because they gave us Sushi.:mrgreen:

Stress education so that they go to college? Well colleges aren't intended to be choices for them.

Why not? Intended by who? Their parents? God? How about they decide that they don't want to stay on that block forever so they intend it for themselves?

Their parents who don't stress education enough. Their parents are the victims of the same thing that they are.

So parents who beat their kids get a free pass because they got beaten when they were kids? I still don't buy it.

Cosby Who's show "works to obscure it's viewers understanding of the structual limits on individual mobility in our society.(2)

Your link is once again inaccessible to me. Perhaps you could post an exerpt for a relevent section?

Stop calling him Doctor Cosby.

Why? He's a doctor. You were trying to marginalize him by saying he is a comedian, in a way deliberately intended to imply that that was all he was, and to sweep his Doctorate in Education under the rug.

Do I talk about Doctor West and Doctor Bell. No because I don't need to attach credentials to their names.

You can call them Doctor West and Doctor Bell if you like. I am not nearly as offended by you acknowledging their credentials as you seem to be by me acknowledging Doctor Cosby's.

On another note, did you ever see History of the World part 1? I love that part where the guy says he's a stand up Philosopher and the lady says "What? You mean a bullshit artist?":lol:

You and I both know Doctor Cosby's credentials. Anyone else interested is free to look them up. Your attempts to marginalize him fall on deaf ears.

P.S. He has a new book out with Alvin Poussaint titled "Come On People: On the Path from Victims to Victors."

I havn't read it yet, but it looks interesting.
 
Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele and others who have been mentioned in this thread all have PhDs but Bill Cosby does not. From his biography:

"William H. Cosby, Jr. was born in Philadelphia on July 12, 1937. The son of a maid and an absentee father, he grew up in abject poverty, ultimately dropping out of high school to join the Navy. After earning his diploma through correspondence courses, he won a football scholarship to Temple University; while taking classes during the day, he tended bar in the evenings, where his easy ability to make customers laugh resulted in the decision to pursue a career in comedy."

He obviously attended college but there is no indication that he graduated. That does not mean that he is uneducated, however, and his background certainly provides ample credentials for the truth of the counsel that he is providing to young black people and their parents now.
 
He obviously attended college but there is no indication that he graduated.

Oh, I beg to differ.

Bill Cosby earned a Bachelor in Arts Degree from Temple University and a Master Degree in Education (M. Ed.) in 1972 and his Doctorate in Education (Ed.D.) in 1977 from the University of Massachusetts. His doctoral thesis was titled "The Integration of Visual Media Via Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids Into the Elementary Schools Culminating as a Teacher Aid to Achieve Increased Learning."

http://entertainer.billcosby.com/biography/images/biography/bill_cosby_biography.pdf
 
Cosby's new book is not academic and from the preview it seems to be the ranting of an old man talking about the good old days. But people become valued sources when they publish well-reviewed academic sources. Cosby is a comedian not an academic. But Cosby wants to criticize the way poor blacks talk. How did Mushmouth talk? How about on his early routines when he would speak the same way and joke about smoking marijuana? Cosby made money off what he's criticizing. Why should blacks take parenting advice from the father of a drug addict? Where was he when she was 2? When she was 10? Cosby had all the resources to be a perfect father, unlike the people he criticizes, and he failed. He tells blacks to wait to be in stable relationships to have sex while he himself was known to have affairs. He doesn't understand why blacks have sex younger than whites he just likes to critcize. The problem is he couldn't be more hypocritical.

You want to see how prevalent internal racism is?
"In a recent study of 4-year-old African American preschoolers, approximately75% of them preferred to play with their EuropeanAmerican peers over their African American peers.Additionally, over 50% of them articulated their feelingof inferiority to their European American counterparts"(1)

That is disgusting and result of white supremacy. At four years old there already victims. When blacks are buying skin bleaching creams, when black women get weaves, when black teenagers call each other *****. That's internalized racism.

Let's see how racism has affected healthcare.
A huge body of research on health disparities has led him to conclude that stress resulting from institutionalized racism and discrimination, be it real or perceived, blatant or muted, is an "added pathogenic factor" that contributes to well-above-average levels of hypertension, respiratory illness, anxiety, depression, and other ills in minority populations. Socioeconomic status is just part of the problem. While lower-income people generally tend to be less healthy, Williams says, "blacks do more poorly than whites at every level of socioeconomic status."(2)

I suggest you read the whole study and see how terrible the disparity actually is.

The racism is real. You can download the study I cited before here:YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement
It is a little old but things have not changed. If you want you can pick up the book White Racism:The Basics were he does another study. Whites don't have to worry about racism, that is one of the ultimate ofrms of privilige.

Blacks are poorer, i don't even need to cite that. Type income gap into google and you will see that blacks earn less. Blacks have 1/8th the wealth of whites. (2) And that his a result of racism. When blacks are incarcerated 8 times the rate of whites. When the judicial system values a white life more than a black one(3) then there is a problem.

Ronald Fryer didn't do too well in school and ended up at Texas A&M to play football. Now he's a Harvard economist who studies "acting white." We do fine once we get to college the problem is the oppurtunity is not there for many of us.

Your evidence that asians are successful is based on a stereotype and average income. Well I showed how the income is skewed so now what are you standing on.

You say I want racial tension. But should blacks demanding a fair society cause tension? No, america is supposed to be about fairness and equality. The tension exist because of white resistance.

But the problem is people like you. The "I wasn't there. I didn't do it." attitude. Well your benefiting off of what they did. I hope you get to watch the video of that black isrealite because then maybe you will. You don't want to give up the power that whites have earned from this. Why is it always about blacks needing to do better rather than whites having to give up something? The system can not be fixed if whites don't give up something but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe we do need to take more responsibility for ourselves. But that dosen't eliminate the problem. People are products of their enviorments, and as long as blacks continue to grow up in these terrible enviorments, they will continue to get involved in crime and have children out of wedlock. Where you start has a big say in where you end. But how can we fix this? We should extend affirmative actions to housing. Take blacks out of these enviorments that foster crime and other behaviors. Let blacks attend the well-funded schools. Or how about having blacks teach blacks. It worked before when we had very little resources and studies show that black students perform better when the teacher is black. How about giving fair funding to schools? Meaning the worser the school the more funding it recieves. Class sizes can't be cut without funding, supplies can't be bought with out it. But you can't let that happen because whites will have to give something up.

I don't want the government to codle blacks. I want the government to do its job. That means protecting the rights of blacks. And that means protecting them from discrimination also. That means righting its wrongs. You weren't there but the government was. The governent let it happen. The government encouraged it to happen. Shouldn't it fix the mess it made? Shouldn't whites fix the mess they made?

To quote an e-mail i recieved from a friend:
"We are more likely to die, be in jail, be unemployed, be unhealthy, less likely to go to a fully resourced school, have books in the home, less likely to move up through the ranks when we are employed, more likely to get bad interest rates on loans, more likely to have a liquor store on our corner, more likely to get AIDS, more likely to be victims of police brutality, more likely to have the white people move out when we move in, more likely to be seen as criminals and be feared, more likely to be unable to wear our hair naturally....unless something is done, by the government, to allow us the opportunity to escape some of these things, then they will only get worse."
 
Last edited:
You want to see how prevalent internal racism is?

Did I claim that internalised racism wasn't prevelant? Aggressive affirmative action isn't going to make 4 year olds have a higher self esteem. Being able to play Minuett III from Suite in G Minor for Klavier is going to make 4 year olds have higher self esteem.

Hell, if I could play Minuett III from Suite in G Minor for Klavier, I would have higher self esteem, and I'm already an arrogand prick.;)

That is disgusting and result of white supremacy. At four years old there already victims. When blacks are buying skin bleaching creams, when black women get weaves, when black teenagers call each other *****. That's internalized racism.

I agree. That is internalized racism. Find the statistics for Black teenage concert cellists who use skin bleaching creams, get weaves (whatever that is) and call each other *****.

I can't find them. Proabably because no one would bother to get statistics on all two of them.

A huge body of research on health disparities has led him to conclude that stress resulting from institutionalized racism and discrimination, be it real or perceived, blatant or muted, is an "added pathogenic factor" that contributes to well-above-average levels of hypertension, respiratory illness, anxiety, depression, and other ills in minority populations. Socioeconomic status is just part of the problem. While lower-income people generally tend to be less healthy, Williams says, "blacks do more poorly than whites at every level of socioeconomic status."(2)

Couple of problems there.

First, the stress is the result of percieved racism. Even if the racism is real, without being able to percieve the racism, the stress would not be there. And when the racism isn't real, if it is percieved, the stress is still there.

Creating greater racial tension isn't going to do anything to make that stress go away.

Second, "blacks do more poorly than whites at every level of socioeconomic status." So even with you aggressive affirmative action to give blacks a higher socioeconomic status, the problems will still be there, and will probably be worse thanks to the increased racial tensions you are trying to foster.

Blacks are poorer, i don't even need to cite that. Type income gap into google and you will see that blacks earn less. Blacks have 1/8th the wealth of whites. (2) And that his a result of racism.

That is the result of internalized racism. Something which no amount of aggressive affirmative action will fix.

Ronald Fryer didn't do too well in school and ended up at Texas A&M to play football. Now he's a Harvard economist who studies "acting white." We do fine once we get to college the problem is the oppurtunity is not there for many of us.

The problem isn't that whites arn't letting blacks go to colleges. The problem is internalized racism. The problem is blacks who have had inferiority complexes since they were four. You think those problems come from the white kids they interact with on the playground? Highly unlikely. I think it comes from parents maintaining their victimhood by taking out their self-invalidation on their kids at an early age.

Aggressive Affirmative Action won't fix that.

But the problem is people like you. The "I wasn't there. I didn't do it." attitude. Well your benefiting off of what they did.

I am not benefitting off what they did at all. Give me one way in which I benefit.
 
Did I claim that internalised racism wasn't prevelant? Aggressive affirmative action isn't going to make 4 year olds have a higher self esteem. Being able to play Minuett III from Suite in G Minor for Klavier is going to make 4 year olds have higher self esteem.

Hell, if I could play Minuett III from Suite in G Minor for Klavier, I would have higher self esteem, and I'm already an arrogand prick.;)

I agree. That is internalized racism. Find the statistics for Black teenage concert cellists who use skin bleaching creams, get weaves (whatever that is) and call each other *****.

I can't find them. Proabably because no one would bother to get statistics on all two of them.

Well how many 4 year olds regardless of race can play Minuite in G? Like one? You said that "my flight instructor, who happens to be black. As far as I can tell, he doesn't even have these feelings of self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, and fear that you claim all black people in America have as a result of being black," which definatly hinted that you didn't believe it was prevelant.

Couple of problems there.

First, the stress is the result of percieved racism. Even if the racism is real, without being able to percieve the racism, the stress would not be there. And when the racism isn't real, if it is percieved, the stress is still there.

Creating greater racial tension isn't going to do anything to make that stress go away.

Second, "blacks do more poorly than whites at every level of socioeconomic status." So even with you aggressive affirmative action to give blacks a higher socioeconomic status, the problems will still be there, and will probably be worse thanks to the increased racial tensions you are trying to foster.

Did I not give you a study that showed the racism is very much present? But even if it is percieved that something whites don't have to think about. They don't have to worry about racism.

Second you missed this:
"even when they had overcome barriers to getting health care, African-Americans and other minority populations were still less likely to receive certain high-tech, expensive, yet common procedures such as coronary bypass operations, kidney dialysis, and kidney transplants. They were more likely, however, to undergo certain other procedures, including lower-limb amputations for diabetes. Why this is so continues to be a subject of research. Possible explanations include health care providers' biases, miscommunication, and blacks' lack of trust in the largely white health care system."

I expect you to say they should just trust the healthcare system. But why should they trust their oppressor? I also think even with their distrust they would still rather go through dialysis than an amputation. Increased socioeconomic status does improve health. Blacks just do worse when the groups are controlled.

The problem isn't that whites arn't letting blacks go to colleges. The problem is internalized racism. The problem is blacks who have had inferiority complexes since they were four. You think those problems come from the white kids they interact with on the playground? Highly unlikely. I think it comes from parents maintaining their victimhood by taking out their self-invalidation on their kids at an early age.

Where did their parents own invalidation come from their parents. The grandparents of those children lived in society that undeniably caused them. White racism started the cycle. White racism also still exists. If white racism is gone then the inferiority complex will go away. But the kids don't just pick it up from their parents they pick it up from TV. They will be victims of white racism when they get older. The invalidation will develop whether or not their parents pass it on.
I am not benefitting off what they did at all. Give me one way in which I benefit.

The wealth gap if you read the source is not due to internalized racism. It is due to past racism. How did you benefit? Your ancestors were allowed to compete freely, they were allowed to accumulate wealth. If you go for a job it is likely the interviewer will be white. You don't have to worry about racism. Your less likely to be harrassed by police, less likely to be a victim of violence, more likely recieve adequate healthcare, more likely to recieve a fair trial, less likely to be incarcerated. Those are just some of the benefits you recive from the system they set up.

But you have nothing left to hide behind. You can't hide behind Cosby, he's a hypocrite. You can't hide behind asian success, i debunked that. You can't hide behind the idea that I imagine the racism. So what do you do? You pass up all that I debunk and claim everything else to be internalized. That internalized racism is a result of white racism but you blame it on them. Sure AA can't cure it but blacks in higher socioeconomic status can more properly protect themselves from racism. AA can help remove the white racism that causes it. But at worst maybe the fact that we have to this internalized oppression maybe because we have to live with we should get a little prefrence. Maybe because we would do better if we didn't have it. Whites made sure AA was only a tiebreaker but many of them don't even want that.

So what are you going to do now? Your argument has no leg to stand on. Are you going to recognize your whiteness and see how it denies so much to those who are something else? For some reason I don't see that happening.
 
Well how many 4 year olds regardless of race can play Minuite in G? Like one? You said that "my flight instructor, who happens to be black. As far as I can tell, he doesn't even have these feelings of self-invalidation, self-doubt, isolation, and fear that you claim all black people in America have as a result of being black," which definatly hinted that you didn't believe it was prevelant.

Actually, plenty of them can. Minuet in G is part of the Suzuki Violin Method Volume 1.

My point about my flight instructor was not that I don't think internalized racism is prevelant, but rather that I don't think it is permenant. I know for a fact that my flight instructor did not have the best home life in his youth, and was likely subject to a lot of the internalized racism we have discussed.

Instead of perpetuating the cycle by re-enacting it, he directed his energy into a very successful career as a pilot and aerospace engineer.

It was a response to this:

Blacks develop these patterns and act them out on their children because thats how the patterns work. You seriously think blacks have control over the developments of these patterns?

Did I not give you a study that showed the racism is very much present?

I disagree with your assertion that things have not changed. There is less white racism now than there was then.

Your attempts to instigate further racial conflict will not decrease white racism, but will rather increase it.

But even if it is percieved that something whites don't have to think about. They don't have to worry about racism.

Ah, and so by implementing agressive affirmative action, you want to make it so that racism is something that white have to worry about. And in response, when better qualified applicants get turned down because they already had enough whites at a particular business, whites will become more racist towards blacks. In response to this increase in white racism there will be an increas of black racism, etc...

I just don't see how your method is going to solve any problems.

I expect you to say they should just trust the healthcare system.

Why would I say they should trust the healthcare system? I don't trust the healthcare system. After Hillary gets elected I really won't trust the healthcare system.

The fact that blacks do worse when the groups are controlled for socioeconomic status suggests that it must either be internalised racism or genetics. White people arn't using their voodoo powers to magically make black people sick.

Affirmative Action won't solve it in either case, and I suspect it will actually make it worse. Increased racial tension won't be any less of a hardship of black people than it is on white people.

Where did their parents own invalidation come from their parents. The grandparents of those children lived in society that undeniably caused them. White racism started the cycle.

And because of that you want to continue the cycle? People who perpetuate the cycle are just as guilty as those who start it. Its entirely likely that those who started the cycle didn't even really start it.

You think whites never took out their sense of self invalidation and self-doubt and fear by enslaving and abusing blacks? If they did, then by your logic, you can't really blame them for acting upon a distress pattern, since that is what distress patterns do.:roll:

I am sure you could trace passed on feelings of self-invalidation, self doubt, and fear all the way back to the first homo-erectus to leave Africa. He probably got discriminated against for not having as much body hair as his friends.

So really, blacks started the cycle over 10,000 years ago.

I for one don't care who started the cycle. Parents of any colour who take their own self-invalidation self-doubt or fear out on their kids are crappy parents any way you cut it.

White racism also still exists.

Do you seriously think AA will get rid of white racism? Have you ever tried to put out a fire using gasolene?

If white racism is gone then the inferiority complex will go away.

White racism going away isn't going to turn crappy parents into good parents. It isn't going to stop people from passing down a family tradition of self-invalidation.

AA isn't going to make white racism go away, and it isn't going to make the elements of black culture that reinforce the tendency to take self-invalidation out on children go away either.

But the kids don't just pick it up from their parents they pick it up from TV.

Art reflects life an life reflects art. Whichever way you push the cycle, art will keep it going in that direction. If an entire generation of black children grew up speaking with a Northern Irish accent, you would see black kids on tv speaking wih a Northern Irish accent, which would further increase the stereotype and lead more black kids to speak in a Northern Irish accent.

If you implement aggressive affirmative action, you will get shows with white protaganists being unfairly treated by the system, for the simple reason that there would be an audience for it. You would then have a brand spanking new stereotype of middle class black kids using the system as a crutch and laughing at the poor white kids they are sticking it to. This for the simple reason that there would be an audience for it.

They will be victims of white racism when they get older. The invalidation will develop whether or not their parents pass it on.

Ah, here we come to why I brought up my flight instructor. He didn't develop invalidation. He started with it, decided it was useless, and got rid of it.

The wealth gap if you read the source is not due to internalized racism. It is due to past racism. How did you benefit? Your ancestors were allowed to compete freely, they were allowed to accumulate wealth.

First of all, I havn't recieved any money from my family, and with any luck I shant for a good long while.

Second of all, even i I did, your argument makes no sense.

You are claiming that if a bunch of idiots in America didn't portray blacks as savages and didn't make fun of them or put them in ghettos that my anscestors in Europe wouldn't have been allowed to compete freely and aquire wealth? What kind of argument is that?

Probably some dude in China is raping some girl in China right now. Is that somehow giving you some sort of benefit that you can pass on to your children?

If you go for a job it is likely the interviewer will be white.

I have already gone for a couple of interviews. My first minimum wage job at a music store I got hired by a guy who was a Philipino/Simoan mix.

Then when he got promoted, (passing up several white male store managers in the process) I filled his position.

Then I got hired by an Asian lady.

No in-group bias helping me out I am afraid.

Your less likely to be harrassed by police,

I drive the speed limit, never even tried marujuana, and always party with a designated driver.

Besides of which, AA won't make police officers less racist. I don't trust them any more than I trust our health care system.

less likely to be a victim of violence,

I think everyone who excersizes their second amendment rights is less likely to be a victim of violence.

How does the saying go? God made men, Sam Colt made 'em equal.

more likely recieve adequate healthcare,

I get healthcare from a job that I worked my way up to from the very bottom, without in-group bias helping me out.

more likely to recieve a fair trial,

You got me there. Blacks get royally screwed in our legal system.

Still, that isn't a benefit I recieved because a bunch of idiots in America portrayed blacks as savages and made fun of them and put them in ghettos.

If none of that had happened, my trial would remain unaffected. I did not benefit from it, blacks just got screwed by it. I don't benefit at all from blacks getting screwed by our legal system, and if blacks started getting fair trials, it wouldn't make mine any less fair.

In any event, AA won't solve that either. Getting rid of lawyers would solve it though I think. I don't think there is any problem in our legal system that can't be traced back to lawyers.

But you have nothing left to hide behind. You can't hide behind Cosby, he's a hypocrite.

Cosby is a man who made mistakes, acknowledged them, and maybe even learned from them. His advocacy of taking charge of ones own life has no less merit because of it.

You can't hide behind asian success, i debunked that.

No you didn't. You said that a bunch of Asians moved here recently. If the system of white privililege were so powerful as you proclaim, they should not have been able to compete, much less outpace white America after they came here.

They should have come here with high hopes, run into a barrier of white privilige, and gone home in disgust.

Besides of which, recent Asian immigrants arn't the only ones doing well. Asian students score higher in school across the board. Their average income is over 10% hiher than whites. How does having recently immigrated here give them that much of an advantage in a society whose very foundation you claim is based on giving white people every advantage possible and systematticaly keeping everyone else out?

Your argument doesn't add up at all.

You can't hide behind the idea that I imagine the racism.

There is some racism left, but certainly not as much as you imagine there is.

Whats left of it is quickly dying off and will be gone completely within two or three generations unless someone succeeds in reviving widespread racial tension.

So what do you do? You pass up all that I debunk and claim everything else to be internalized.

What exactly have I claimed to be an effect of internalized racism that you are claiming is not?

That internalized racism is a result of white racism but you blame it on them.

You have any evidence to suggest that humans haven't been passing feelings of self-invalidation, self-doubt and fear on to other humans for the past 10,000 years? Otherwise I maintain that blacks started it before they left Africa the first time.

Sure AA can't cure it but blacks in higher socioeconomic status can more properly protect themselves from racism. AA can help remove the white racism that causes it.

Where is your evidence that AA will remove racism? And please find something other than another J Stor link that I can't access.

But at worst maybe the fact that we have to this internalized oppression maybe because we have to live with we should get a little prefrence. Maybe because we would do better if we didn't have it. Whites made sure AA was only a tiebreaker but many of them don't even want that.

Maybe the team whose average height is shorter should get some free throws in basketball games to make up for their disadvantage.

Maybe a competetive weightlifter who doesn't have as much musclemass as a result of his genetic heritage shouldn't have to lift as much in order to win.

Maybe musicians who wern't born with perfect pitch should be given preferential treatment to those who were.

Maybe because dumb people would do better if they were smarter, dumb people should get preferential treatment, after all it isn't their fault that they're dumb. Maybe maybe mabye...
 
You have to be ****ing ******** me.....
To quote an e-mail i recieved from a friend:
"We are more likely to die,
Don't join gangs, buy drugs from violent people, commit crimes where you get shot by the victims/police, or do any other negligent action. The "wrong place wrong time" scenario, well that happens to anyone white or black.
be in jail,
Don't Commit Crimes.
be unemployed
Don't be lazy or choosy with your job. Get a job and work hard. Then you have no reason to be unemployed.
be unhealthy,
Eat right and exercise. No Healthcare? Talk to all the whites out there without it as well. :roll:
less likely to go to a fully resourced school,
Happens to plenty of white folks too.
have books in the home,
Buy Books
less likely to move up through the ranks when we are employed,
Work hard don't be lazy. Don't let your race be an excuse.
more likely to get bad interest rates on loans,
Based upon credit history not Race. Don't let your race be an excuse.
more likely to have a liquor store on our corner
Move to another neighborhood/boycott the store and have your friends and neighbors do the same. They like liquor? Then thats just a good business deal on the store owner's part. ,
more likely to get AIDS,
Stop having random sex with many "hoes" "hunnies" or "shawtys"
more likely to be victims of police brutality,
Cooperate with police, then use of force will be unnecessary.
more likely to have the white people move out when we move in,
Sounds like a personal issue.
more likely to be seen as criminals and be feared,
Prove your not a criminal, prove your friendly and not someone to be feared.
more likely to be unable to wear our hair naturally
HuH? Im lost on that one.
....
unless something is done, by the government, to allow us the opportunity to escape some of these things, then they will only get worse."
Yes, because lets just wait around and let the government find ways to fix our own cultural problems.

Do the above listed things and you as an individual can rise above these problems. Convince your friends to do the same and through the generations you will find a way to rise above it without the government handouts you so desperately crave.
 
Actually, plenty of them can. Minuet in G is part of the Suzuki Violin Method Volume 1.

My point about my flight instructor was not that I don't think internalized racism is prevelant, but rather that I don't think it is permenant. I know for a fact that my flight instructor did not have the best home life in his youth, and was likely subject to a lot of the internalized racism we have discussed.

Instead of perpetuating the cycle by re-enacting it, he directed his energy into a very successful career as a pilot and aerospace engineer.

So waht you point ot an exception? Yes it is possible to defeat intenalized racism but its not just something you can shrug off. Its a difficult thing to do.

I disagree with your assertion that things have not changed. There is less white racism now than there was then.

Where is this evidence? That was 1991. 27 years after the Civil Rights Act. Why do you think things have changed? Heres two reports from 2007 that say racism is still prevalent.(1)(2) Come on schools are resegregating.(3) The Us is more segregated than in 1860!(4) And your tell me racism is dissappearing?

Your attempts to instigate further racial conflict will not decrease white racism, but will rather increase it.

White resistance causes the conflict. Blacks demanding a fair society shouldn't cause conflict unless there is resistance.

Ah, and so by implementing agressive affirmative action, you want to make it so that racism is something that white have to worry about. And in response, when better qualified applicants get turned down because they already had enough whites at a particular business, whites will become more racist towards blacks. In response to this increase in white racism there will be an increas of black racism, etc...

I just don't see how your method is going to solve any problems.

Reverse racism doesn't exist. Black racism doesn't exist because racism needs power. Affirmative action is a tiebreaker, it puts you over the hump, its not a deciding factor. The Supreme Court made sure of it. The important place that it needs to be implemented is in housing. Where you grow up has a large impact on what resources you. Reverse the housing segregation and disparities will start to dissappear.

Why would I say they should trust the healthcare system? I don't trust the healthcare system. After Hillary gets elected I really won't trust the healthcare system.

The fact that blacks do worse when the groups are controlled for socioeconomic status suggests that it must either be internalised racism or genetics. White people arn't using their voodoo powers to magically make black people sick.

I already gave you a source that sai the disparitu is due to racism. Whre is the one that says it's internalized or genetic?

Affirmative Action won't solve it in either case, and I suspect it will actually make it worse. Increased racial tension won't be any less of a hardship of black people than it is on white people.

Affirmative action shouldn't cause racial tension unless whites resist a chance to form a fair society.

And because of that you want to continue the cycle? People who perpetuate the cycle are just as guilty as those who start it. Its entirely likely that those who started the cycle didn't even really start it.

Were do I say I want to continue the cycle? THe cycle for the most part won't stop unless something is done. BUt how could black internalized racism not be caused by white oppression?

You think whites never took out their sense of self invalidation and self-doubt and fear by enslaving and abusing blacks? If they did, then by your logic, you can't really blame them for acting upon a distress pattern, since that is what distress patterns do.:roll:

Your telling whites had enough self-invalidation to enslave an entire race and rape two whole continents? Get the **** out of here.

I am sure you could trace passed on feelings of self-invalidation, self doubt, and fear all the way back to the first homo-erectus to leave Africa. He probably got discriminated against for not having as much body hair as his friends.

So really, blacks started the cycle over 10,000 years ago.

Yea just make random things up. Who brought that discrimination to another level entirely?

I for one don't care who started the cycle. Parents of any colour who take their own self-invalidation self-doubt or fear out on their kids are crappy parents any way you cut it.

They don't just take it out on their kids, they take it out on themselves, their sposes. This is a reaction to white racism. But keep blaming the victims for internalized racism.

Do you seriously think AA will get rid of white racism? Have you ever tried to put out a fire using gasolene?

AA isn't racism. But if it can't get rid of white racism at least it can make a fair society.

White racism going away isn't going to turn crappy parents into good parents. It isn't going to stop people from passing down a family tradition of self-invalidation.

AA isn't going to make white racism go away, and it isn't going to make the elements of black culture that reinforce the tendency to take self-invalidation out on children go away either.

AA can break up the enviorments that foster these elements.

If you implement aggressive affirmative action, you will get shows with white protaganists being unfairly treated by the system, for the simple reason that there would be an audience for it. You would then have a brand spanking new stereotype of middle class black kids using the system as a crutch and laughing at the poor white kids they are sticking it to. This for the simple reason that there would be an audience for it.

How many shows are on TV now that show blacks being treated unfairly and whites using the system as a crutch.

Ah, here we come to why I brought up my flight instructor. He didn't develop invalidation. He started with it, decided it was useless, and got rid of it.

You can't start with the invalidation. You develop it no matter how young. Afte he overcame the invalidation that his parents passed onto him he wasn't going to redevlop them.

First of all, I havn't recieved any money from my family, and with any luck I shant for a good long while.

Do I know you personally? I can only compare to the average. 80% of a persons wealth is inherited.

[uote]Second of all, even i I did, your argument makes no sense.

You are claiming that if a bunch of idiots in America didn't portray blacks as savages and didn't make fun of them or put them in ghettos that my anscestors in Europe wouldn't have been allowed to compete freely and aquire wealth? What kind of argument is that?[/quote]

Were talking about what they accumulated in america not in europe.

I have already gone for a couple of interviews. My first minimum wage job at a music store I got hired by a guy who was a Philipino/Simoan mix.

Then when he got promoted, (passing up several white male store managers in the process) I filled his position.

Then I got hired by an Asian lady.

No in-group bias helping me out I am afraid.

Once again I can only compare to the average. Most employers are white. So odds are you would be hired by a white employer.

I drive the speed limit, never even tried marujuana, and always party with a designated driver.

Besides of which, AA won't make police officers less racist. I don't trust them any more than I trust our health care system.

But it will break up ghettos. Thats where a lot of police violnce occurs.

I think everyone who excersizes their second amendment rights is less likely to be a victim of violence.

When I was a teenager I started carrying a gun because I saw the violence and thought it would protect me. When I was 16 I was mugged by a guy with a gun. When I went to draw my own gun he shot me in the arm. Guns can't protect you against guns.

I get healthcare from a job that I worked my way up to from the very bottom, without in-group bias helping me out.

Even when access related factors are controlled blacks get worse healthcare.

You got me there. Blacks get royally screwed in our legal system.

Still, that isn't a benefit I recieved because a bunch of idiots in America portrayed blacks as savages and made fun of them and put them in ghettos.

If none of that had happened, my trial would remain unaffected. I did not benefit from it, blacks just got screwed by it. I don't benefit at all from blacks getting screwed by our legal system, and if blacks started getting fair trials, it wouldn't make mine any less fair.

In comparison to me you will be more likely to get a fair trial. Thats white racism. If we both go to court for murder I'm more likely to be sentanced to death than you.
 
In any event, AA won't solve that either. Getting rid of lawyers would solve it though I think. I don't think there is any problem in our legal system that can't be traced back to lawyers.

It more complex than that. It deals with the whole system juries, lawyers and judges.

Cosby is a man who made mistakes, acknowledged them, and maybe even learned from them. His advocacy of taking charge of ones own life has no less merit because of it.

But why does he expect more from those who have less?

No you didn't. You said that a bunch of Asians moved here recently. If the system of white privililege were so powerful as you proclaim, they should not have been able to compete, much less outpace white America after they came here.

They should have come here with high hopes, run into a barrier of white privilige, and gone home in disgust.

They come here with wealth. They get hired for jobs and then they come here. They come here to start big buisnesses. They are not the immigrants that come here wit hnothing. They come with everything white privilige would try to prevent them from getting if they grow up here.

Besides of which, recent Asian immigrants arn't the only ones doing well. Asian students score higher in school across the board. Their average income is over 10% hiher than whites. How does having recently immigrated here give them that much of an advantage in a society whose very foundation you claim is based on giving white people every advantage possible and systematticaly keeping everyone else out?

The average in come is skewed. Since 1990 about 5 million highly-trained asians have immigrated. Why don't you hear about the asians that aren't succedeing? Who work in sweatshops in LA and Chinatown? That live in similiar conditions as blacks? Because they don't fit the stereotype and they are a much smaller group.
Your argument doesn't add up at all.


There is some racism left, but certainly not as much as you imagine there is.

Whats left of it is quickly dying off and will be gone completely within two or three generations unless someone succeeds in reviving widespread racial tension.

What exactly have I claimed to be an effect of internalized racism that you are claiming is not?

You claim the wealth gap is due to internalized racism. It's not. But you like to say that intenalized racism is our fault. So that whites are completely absolved

You have any evidence to suggest that humans haven't been passing feelings of self-invalidation, self-doubt and fear on to other humans for the past 10,000 years? Otherwise I maintain that blacks started it before they left Africa the first time.

Thats not how it works. You have to prove they've been passing it on for 10,000 years. You have to prove your own claims, I don't have to disprove them. Intenalized racims is a result of white racism thats is undeniable. You want to say that its always existed then you prove it.

Where is your evidence that AA will remove racism? And please find something other than another J Stor link that I can't access.

Didn't I download the last one for you. AA may not be able to remove it right away but it can allow for equal oppurtiunity. If oppurunities are equal then white racism won't matter.
 
It more complex than that. It deals with the whole system juries, lawyers and judges.



But why does he expect more from those who have less?



They come here with wealth. They get hired for jobs and then they come here. They come here to start big buisnesses. They are not the immigrants that come here wit hnothing. They come with everything white privilige would try to prevent them from getting if they grow up here.



The average in come is skewed. Since 1990 about 5 million highly-trained asians have immigrated. Why don't you hear about the asians that aren't succedeing? Who work in sweatshops in LA and Chinatown? That live in similiar conditions as blacks? Because they don't fit the stereotype and they are a much smaller group.
Your argument doesn't add up at all.


There is some racism left, but certainly not as much as you imagine there is.

Whats left of it is quickly dying off and will be gone completely within two or three generations unless someone succeeds in reviving widespread racial tension.



You claim the wealth gap is due to internalized racism. It's not. But you like to say that intenalized racism is our fault. So that whites are completely absolved



Thats not how it works. You have to prove they've been passing it on for 10,000 years. You have to prove your own claims, I don't have to disprove them. Intenalized racims is a result of white racism thats is undeniable. You want to say that its always existed then you prove it.



Didn't I download the last one for you. AA may not be able to remove it right away but it can allow for equal oppurtiunity. If oppurunities are equal then white racism won't matter.

I think you are inadvertently missing the point.

The Democrats want your vote and give you eternally predictable promises of what they are going to do for you. They've been doing this for going on sixty years now but still haven't delivered have they. When will you see that they aren't going to make life good for you? They'll just keep telling you that they will so that you'll keep voting for them.

The Republicans, whether they practice it or not, preach a gospel of personal resonsibility and accountablity, removing artificial roadblocks, and then creating an environment in which people are free to prosper. They don't expect to get your vote and therefore won't be pandering to you for it, but expect you to take advantage of the opportunities provided and get ahead on your own initiative. They aren't going to do it for you either.


I know you don't like Bill Cosby, but he is giving you exquisitely valuable advice. So long as you look to government to solve your problems and help you get ahead, you are going to stay at the bottom of the ladder with all the other people who give their souls to the government in order to maintain bare sustenance. Even if AA gets you that job, it can't give you personal pride in knowing that you earned it, deserved it, and/or are respected as meriting it. And you will continue to be regarded as inferior by those who hold in contempt people who don't compete in the real world and earn what they get.

I have never met a black person or any other minority, however, who failed to succeed by doing what Cosby encourages. Young blacks need for their leaders to tell them to clean them selves up, dress for success, stay away from gangs, don't engage in promiscuity and other high risk behaviors, stay away from drugs, booze, and illegal activities, stay in school and get an education, learn a trade, be willing to start at a Mcjob to gain references and a work ethic, and be willing to put in an honest days work for your pay. And it is important to speak proper English, get married before having kids, and accept responsibility for good citizenship if you want to be fully successful.

Any klutz can sit around and whine about how bad it is or how somebody is keeping them down or the unfairness of it all. So they wait for somebody else to fix it until they finally die as bitter old men.

Smart people get it done.
 
I think you are inadvertently missing the point.

The Democrats want your vote and give you eternally predictable promises of what they are going to do for you. They've been doing this for going on sixty years now but still haven't delivered have they. When will you see that they aren't going to make life good for you? They'll just keep telling you that they will so that you'll keep voting for them.

The Republicans, whether they practice it or not, preach a gospel of personal resonsibility and accountablity, removing artificial roadblocks, and then creating an environment in which people are free to prosper. They don't expect to get your vote and therefore won't be pandering to you for it, but expect you to take advantage of the opportunities provided and get ahead on your own initiative. They aren't going to do it for you either.


I know you don't like Bill Cosby, but he is giving you exquisitely valuable advice. So long as you look to government to solve your problems and help you get ahead, you are going to stay at the bottom of the ladder with all the other people who give their souls to the government in order to maintain bare sustenance. Even if AA gets you that job, it can't give you personal pride in knowing that you earned it, deserved it, and/or are respected as meriting it. And you will continue to be regarded as inferior by those who hold in contempt people who don't compete in the real world and earn what they get.

I have never met a black person or any other minority, however, who failed to succeed by doing what Cosby encourages. Young blacks need for their leaders to tell them to clean them selves up, dress for success, stay away from gangs, don't engage in promiscuity and other high risk behaviors, stay away from drugs, booze, and illegal activities, stay in school and get an education, learn a trade, be willing to start at a Mcjob to gain references and a work ethic, and be willing to put in an honest days work for your pay. And it is important to speak proper English, get married before having kids, and accept responsibility for good citizenship if you want to be fully successful.

Any klutz can sit around and whine about how bad it is or how somebody is keeping them down or the unfairness of it all. So they wait for somebody else to fix it until they finally die as bitter old men.

Smart people get it done.

First off save the "how to get it done" lecture. I've gotten it done. I'm plannign to enter a doctoral program but at the same time I'm not turning my back on those who didn't. I got into college for athletics and I succeded in academics because I wasn't going to be a basketball star. We do fine once we get to college. The oppurtunity just isn't always there. You haven't met a black man who failed doing what Cosby says? Well you have never been to where I grew up. The scenario that many blacks find themselves is almost hopeless.

Second, save the Republican propaganda. I also don't need a lecture about how great the party that hates me is. I don't need lectures from the party that has fought Civil Rights from day one.

Reed and most of his white colleagues seem to want a Republican Party that is overwhelmingly white, but also to desire the party to look good, to “project an image of racial tolerance.” Image, not reality, seems to be their concern. Today, the Republican Party is the omnipresent guardian of whiteness, while trying to appear non-racist to Americans of color. This façade is created by token appointments of a few black Republicans (like Rice and Thomas) to very visible political positions. One might have hoped for a more positive vision of multicultural democracy from a Republican party that had long benefited from the great loyalty of black voters, yet the opposite has happened.


Since the 1932 presidential election, in which the Republican Party lost to Franklin Roosevelt, the Republican Party has moved from the party of Abraham Lincoln that had for decades garnered the votes of most black Americans to one that is anti-black in many of its issue positions and, for that reason, now draws a very small percentage of black voters in elections at all levels. With the presidential campaign of Barry Goldwater in 1964, the Republican Party intentionally abandoned black voters for a strategy openly targeting what are seen as the primary interests of a majority of white voters. This explicitly pro white political strategy has put emphasis on the interests of whites in suburbia and the southern states. Codewords such as “quotas,” “states’ rights,” “busing,” and “crime in the streets” have been substituted for the more explicitly racist terms of the days of legal segregation.
racismreview.com Blog Archive The Real Whitewash: The Republican Party as the White (Man?s) Party
 
If you are entering a doctoral program, your situation was hopeless? As you know nothing about me or my experience, don't discount what I know and what I've seen and what I know is possible. I shudder to think about the sad state of education in this country, however, if you are honestly in a post graduate program and still believe that the Republican Party has fought Civil Rights from Day One. You weren't required to take any history courses at all?

But okay. I'll leave you alone to believe that people are justified to wallow in self pity and make excuses because they are victims. I think those two things are the surest prescription to keep poor black people down for many more generations to come.

Have a great day.
 
If you are entering a doctoral program, your situation was hopeless? As you know nothing about me or my experience, don't discount what I know and what I've seen and what I know is possible. I shudder to think about the sad state of education in this country, however, if you are honestly in a post graduate program and still believe that the Republican Party has fought Civil Rights from Day One. You weren't required to take any history courses at all?

I would still be living on the same block as I grew up on if it wasn't for basketball. Basketball gave me the chance and I took it from there. But many kids can't get out the way I did. But the republican party today is not the republican party of Lincoln. The old Republicans switched to the democratic party when it started to support Civil Rights. The racist Democrats and Dixiecrats became the Republican party of today. A name change was all it was.

But okay. I'll leave you alone to believe that people are justified to wallow in self pity and make excuses because they are victims. I think those two things are the surest prescription to keep poor black people down for many more generations to come.

Have a great day.

Reality is not an excuse. But segregation made the ghettos so why can't we remove them?
 
Reality is not an excuse. But segregation made the ghettos so why can't we remove them?

You can. It was not an easy process, but your government has ended slavery, then segregation, and then the glass ceilings and artificial barriers. Now most of the barriers left are mostly in the mind. Racism will never be completely eliminated, but most of what is left will be eradicated by performance and achievement, not by legislation or government programs.

I wasn't born black so I didn't have that to overcome. But I was born poor and female to an alcoholic mother and physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive father and most people didn't give me a chance in hell to overcome that. But there were one or two people in my life who knew that I could if I decided to do that. So I did.

Until people like you who are in a position to be role models dump your anger and accept that responsibility, other kids on your block won't have anyone to tell them that they don't have to stay there. Until you start telling them what Bill Cosby is telling them, it won't happen.
 
You never responded to this:

Here is what you could say to them:

"Your situation sucks, and you can't get out of it just by working hard. What you got to do is go down to your local bank and ask to open a ROTH IRA. Then save up $5 every day and put it into your IRA account at the end of each month. Or even better, your employer may allow you to have a portion of each paycheck taken out automatically before taxes.

If you want as little risk as possible, have your money put in a CD, or if you want to make it work harder for you, do a self directed investment that will let you invest your money in companies that you believe in. Its only $5 a day, which is the cost of a latte and a bagel, and it means that you can be worry free in your retirement, and that you will have something to leave your kids so that they don't have to go through what you went through."

How is that a bad thing to say to the kids who grew up on the same black as you did? You think you can help them more by trying to convince white folk to give blacks special priviliges and advantages?

If the government were actively restrictings blacks like it used to, you would have a fight worth fighting. These days however, whether real or percieved, its all in peoples minds. White peoples minds, black peoples minds, what does it matter? The result is the same.

Even supposing you were right (which your not) but supposing you were, if white people are going to hold on to white privilige, they are going to hold on to white privilige, and as you have noted, we are very stubborn folk. Trying to convince white people to give black people special priviliges and advantages isn't an effecient way of bringing about change.

If half the energy put into convincing white people that they had un unfair head start were put into actually running the race, it would not take long at all to pass up most whites, who by and large squander any advantage they have on flat screen TVs and SUVs they can't afford.

Regardless of which of us is right about the prevalence of white privilige, if you can convince a large portion of blacks to invest in an IRA when they get their first job, and start their children on Suzuki Violin Method when they are three, change will come about a lot faster than by petitioning the US government.

I will address the points made in your last post later.
 
You can. It was not an easy process, but your government has ended slavery, then segregation, and then the glass ceilings and artificial barriers. Now most of the barriers left are mostly in the mind. Racism will never be completely eliminated, but most of what is left will be eradicated by performance and achievement, not by legislation or government programs.

Come on. Go check the sources I cited two posts ago. The systematic racism is still severe. Brown died with Thurgood Marshall. After Brown things got better and now things are getting worse. Reagen and Bush have stripped the power from Civil Rights legislation. The laws are there but are only effective when enforced. But the white mainstream doesn't think this is happening even when everything says that it is. Instead they elect leaders like Bush and Reagen and Nixon. We can't expect achievment to be equal whe

I wasn't born black so I didn't have that to overcome. But I was born poor and female to an alcoholic mother and physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive father and most people didn't give me a chance in hell to overcome that. But there were one or two people in my life who knew that I could if I decided to do that. So I did.

So you came from a bad enviorment. You had odds to overcome. Would you not sympathize with those who come from the same position? Not everyone can overcome the odds. If they could would they really be odds? But we can dismantle enviorments that create them. We can guarantee equal opportunity. There is no reason we shouldn't.

Until people like you who are in a position to be role models dump your anger and accept that responsibility, other kids on your block won't have anyone to tell them that they don't have to stay there. Until you start telling them what Bill Cosby is telling them, it won't happen.

I go back to my block all the time and try to help the kids there. But while I tell them try and you will succeed. They will tell me "Well Derek down block did that and he's still here. Mike across the street did that and he's still here." They will tell me they are better off doing what they want then work for nothing. These kids don't have the opportunity they should be garunteed. They are not supposed to go to college. Instead they see drug dealers flaunting their money and see opportunity there. What do I tell the ones that do try and still fail? You didn't try hard enough. The hardest workers have always been the marginalized. If they do succeed they won't change the state of black america. They will leave because they don't have to live there anymore. You can't blame them. So they leave and no new resources come to the neighborhood. Ghettos aren't going to break up through some massive achievement movement. The system makes it so that someone has to be poor.

In his new book Cosby writes, "The schools don't help, they're often terrible quality." Well isn't that part of the problem? We don't have the resources to properly fund the schools. We don't choose the schools our kids go to.
 
Wow Jray, you were lucky enough to get a free ride to college? God damn boy, and you're sitting here complaining? I sure as hell didn't get a free ride to college and neither did my sister, and neither of us got a dime from our parents because our family didn't make enough money to help. Weird how my sis somehow managed to get her degree, as a single mother, working while going to school.

Must have been because she's white, huh? Is that why she managed to get a degree despite coming from a rural area and a family that was financially unable to help? I'm sure that whole working while going to school and raising a kid thing was doable because of the color of her skin.

And, AA isn't equal opportunity. It's UN equal opportunity. It's legislated favortism. It's legislated racism and sexism. I just cannot for the life of me understand why people are still under the delusion that it's necessary and that's "fair" to force employers to discriminate against white men.

If I knew that someone hired me just to fill some stupid AA requirement, I'd tell them to shove it up their ***.
 
So you came from a bad enviorment. You had odds to overcome. Would you not sympathize with those who come from the same position? Not everyone can overcome the odds. If they could would they really be odds?

No. That is rather the point. If everyobdy would overcome the odds, the odds wouldn't be against them anymore.

I go back to my block all the time and try to help the kids there. But while I tell them try and you will succeed. They will tell me "Well Derek down block did that and he's still here. Mike across the street did that and he's still here." They will tell me they are better off doing what they want then work for nothing.

I find it hard to believe that Derek has religiously put $5/day into his retirment investment potfolio and not ended up any further ahead.

In fact, seeing as the market has averaged a 10% annual return, one would expect that after putting $150/month (which is a little less than $5/day) into an investement portfolio, after 40 years of working he would have accumulated roughly $956,667.04. He would be just shy of being a millionaire, and his grandkids could grow up wherever he damn well pleased.

Also, you don't need to have good credit history in order to get student loans, as a large number of students don't have a credit history straight out of high school.

Additionally, when people join the armed services they automatically qualify for the G.I. Bill, and they get steady income in addition to free food and lodging.

Its hard to believe that living in hell is the only option for anyone.
 
Back
Top Bottom