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What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?[W:14]

rabbitcaebannog

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I mean the last thing the state needs is to bring in less revenue given the sad state of their education funding.
 

Fisher

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

I mean the last thing the state needs is to bring in less revenue given the sad state of their education funding.

I don't think their higher education funding is in a "sad state"; and really their k-12 funding isn't as horrible as teacher unions would have one believe. In the end, it is about recruiting new business and jobs and stopping the outflow of existing jobs.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

I don't think their higher education funding is in a "sad state"; and really their k-12 funding isn't as horrible as teacher unions would have one believe. In the end, it is about recruiting new business and jobs and stopping the outflow of existing jobs.

What does teacher unions have to do with their piss poor K-12 funding??? Yes, it IS in a sad state.
 

vvx

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Just a link on info for those not familiar: North Carolina's Republican tax reform - Aug. 8, 2013

The basic strategy is by creating a better business climate they will encourage businesses to invest in North Carolina. If enough do so, it will create jobs. Increase the number of people working / the average amount earned by the workers and you can reduce tax rates while maintaining the same tax revenues. North Carolina will be an interesting case study to see if it works. I hope it does.
 

Fisher

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

What does teacher unions have to do with their piss poor K-12 funding??? Yes, it IS in a sad state.

They do not have "piss poor K-12 funding". The funding is misallocated. Teaching is not a profession--it is a job that requires little more than the same college degree the people serving teachers $5 coffee at Starbucks have. Don't pretend that teacher unions have nothing to do with both education and employment policies in public education. Teachers with no experience start off making almost $31K for 10 months work in NC which is over $14 per hour assuming a 40 hour work week for the 10 months a year they work. (http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf)
 

Woodman909

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Just a link on info for those not familiar: North Carolina's Republican tax reform - Aug. 8, 2013

The basic strategy is by creating a better business climate they will encourage businesses to invest in North Carolina. If enough do so, it will create jobs. Increase the number of people working / the average amount earned by the workers and you can reduce tax rates while maintaining the same tax revenues. North Carolina will be an interesting case study to see if it works. I hope it does.

I believe a flat tax system is fair, but only if all deductions and all exceptions are eliminated. Otherwise it's just another path for cheating.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Just a link on info for those not familiar: North Carolina's Republican tax reform - Aug. 8, 2013

The basic strategy is by creating a better business climate they will encourage businesses to invest in North Carolina. If enough do so, it will create jobs. Increase the number of people working / the average amount earned by the workers and you can reduce tax rates while maintaining the same tax revenues. North Carolina will be an interesting case study to see if it works. I hope it does.

So, having low revenue will be helpful for the future of NC because it will grow jobs despite not having enough to fund its schools?
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

They do not have "piss poor K-12 funding". The funding is misallocated. Teaching is not a profession--it is a job that requires little more than the same college degree the people serving teachers $5 coffee at Starbucks have. Don't pretend that teacher unions have nothing to do with both education and employment policies in public education. Teachers with no experience start off making almost $31K for 10 months work in NC which is over $14 per hour assuming a 40 hour work week for the 10 months a year they work. (http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf)

Teacher unions have nothing to do with the low wages NC teachers get paid. It seems to me you don't want high quality teachers since you think they are no different than someone who serves you coffee.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

I believe a flat tax system is fair, but only if all deductions and all exceptions are eliminated. Otherwise it's just another path for cheating.

What about revenue?
 

vvx

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

So, having low revenue will be helpful for the future of NC because it will grow jobs despite not having enough to fund its schools?

Those that believe in that tax system do not believe it is necessarily low revenue. The argument is usually just the opposite. That even though the tax rates are lower the taxable income will be higher and thus tax revenues will be greater.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Those that believe in that tax system do not believe it is necessarily low revenue. The argument is usually just the opposite. That even though the tax rates are lower the taxable income will be higher and thus tax revenues will be greater.

The only taxable income that will be higher is for lower income and middle income people. Wealthier incomes will be cut especially when you get up into the millions which leaves the state less revenue.
 

Fisher

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Teacher unions have nothing to do with the low wages NC teachers get paid. It seems to me you don't want high quality teachers since you think they are no different than someone who serves you coffee.

They do not pay low wages. They, in addition to their pay, get health insurance for like $23 per month and get pensions based as a percentage of their 4 highest wage years averaged together. No one serves me coffee because I do not drink coffee, but no they would be no different. Pay has nothing to do with "high quality" teachers.

The median per capita income for NC in 2012 was $24,435 so a teacher with no experience starts off ahead making $30,800.00 (North Carolina State Household Income | Department of Numbers)

The median household income in 2012 in NC was $45,150 (North Carolina State Household Income | Department of Numbers)

The average teacher salary in NC is $46,605, the student-teacher ratio is 15:1 and teacher salaries make up 36% of their education spending (North Carolina Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in NC | Teacher Portal)


Now, how exactly are teachers so put upon in the state of North Carolina?
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

They do not pay low wages. They, in addition to their pay, get health insurance for like $23 per month and get pensions based as a percentage of their 4 highest wage years averaged together. No one serves me coffee because I do not drink coffee, but no they would be no different. Pay has nothing to do with "high quality" teachers.

The median per capita income for NC in 2012 was $24,435 so a teacher with no experience starts off ahead making $30,800.00 (North Carolina State Household Income | Department of Numbers)

The median household income in 2012 in NC was $45,150 (North Carolina State Household Income | Department of Numbers)

The average teacher salary in NC is $46,605, the student-teacher ratio is 15:1 and teacher salaries make up 36% of their education spending (North Carolina Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in NC | Teacher Portal)


Now, how exactly are teachers so put upon in the state of North Carolina?



Perhaps, you should look at Per Capita Personal income which is around $37K in NC so the starting salary is below that figure. That really seems more like a diversion to me though. Even Michelle Rhee (big reformer and her crew of like minded reformers) would disagree about your views on teacher pay and quality (not mattering) but again it has little to do with my OP.

Sad to see NC will be getting less revenue and a drop in school funding.
 

Kal'Stang

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Moderator's Warning:
Discussing teacher unions and how much teachers get paid starting out vs tenure etc etc is not what this thread is about. Please stay on topic. The teacher bit was just an example. The actual topic is the Flat tax in NC. I don't care if you use teachers as an example for discussing regarding the flat tax, but leave out the rest of the junk.
 

Woodman909

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

What about revenue?

Contrary to liberal mantra, a flat tax with no exceptions or deductions eliminates the mechanisms by which the rich reduced their tax liability. Hence, more revenue.

Personally,,, there should be a maximum flat percentage of income that should be taken from a person. Local , state and federal governments can pull taxes ONLY from that pot. If the pot runs dry... then these governments need to reduce their expenses. People cannot and typically do not live beyond their means... governments should do the same.
 

Crosscheck

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Contrary to liberal mantra, a flat tax with no exceptions or deductions eliminates the mechanisms by which the rich reduced their tax liability. Hence, more revenue.

Personally,,, there should be a maximum flat percentage of income that should be taken from a person. Local , state and federal governments can pull taxes ONLY from that pot. If the pot runs dry... then these governments need to reduce their expenses. People cannot and typically do not live beyond their means... governments should do the same.


I agree with what you have written but I believe will see Muslims and Jews sitting down for dinner before we see true fair tax laws. There will always be those looking for loopholes and there will always be politicians with big pockets to listen to them.

But being the devil's advocate just think how many tax preparers will be out of work if the average person could do his own taxes. Just calling the IRS twice for a question you will received two different answers.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Contrary to liberal mantra, a flat tax with no exceptions or deductions eliminates the mechanisms by which the rich reduced their tax liability. Hence, more revenue.

Personally,,, there should be a maximum flat percentage of income that should be taken from a person. Local , state and federal governments can pull taxes ONLY from that pot. If the pot runs dry... then these governments need to reduce their expenses. People cannot and typically do not live beyond their means... governments should do the same.



In NC small business owners will be hurt by not having the deductions. Saying that states runs mainly from small businesses, that is unfortunate for them and the state. Ironically, at the same time the majority of corporate income tax benefits people that live both outside the state and even the country which leaves the taxpayers in the state of NC to either a) make up the difference or b) do without critical services such as education and health services or c) a combination of both a and b.

Also, starving the beast is nothing new to the GOP. They want to use that bumper sticker motto of "live within means and cut services" which is rather foolish when you stop funding things that do matter to any state like education and health services.
 

Woodman909

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

I agree with what you have written but I believe will see Muslims and Jews sitting down for dinner before we see true fair tax laws. There will always be those looking for loopholes and there will always be politicians with big pockets to listen to them.

But being the devil's advocate just think how many tax preparers will be out of work if the average person could do his own taxes. Just calling the IRS twice for a question you will received two different answers.

Oh well, no reasonable plan is ever perfect. The tax preparers and IRS employees can always get jobs being community organizers.
 

Woodman909

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

In NC small business owners will be hurt by not having the deductions. Saying that states runs mainly from small businesses, that is unfortunate for them and the state. Ironically, at the same time the majority of corporate income tax benefits people that live both outside the state and even the country which leaves the taxpayers in the state of NC to either a) make up the difference or b) do without critical services such as education and health services or c) a combination of both a and b.

Also, starving the beast is nothing new to the GOP. They want to use that bumper sticker motto of "live within means and cut services" which is rather foolish when you stop funding things that do matter to any state like education and health services.

The "beast" as you put it, does not have to be starved, nor does it require a immense feast. It requires only a decent meal to be comfortable. You can cut expenses and still be smart about it.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

The "beast" as you put it, does not have to be starved, nor does it require a immense feast. It requires only a decent meal to be comfortable. You can cut expenses and still be smart about it.

On the contrary, the whole purpose of installing such a policy is to starve public programs so there is no other alternative but to privatize them.
 

Woodman909

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

On the contrary, the whole purpose of installing such a policy is to starve public programs so there is no other alternative but to privatize them.

Quite a stretch. I'm certain you can provide the proof to back this up, right?
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Quite a stretch. I'm certain you can provide the proof to back this up, right?

Here is a list of NC legislators with ALEC ties:

North Carolina Legislators with ALEC Ties
House of Representatives
Rep. Marilyn Avila (R-40)[1], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Hugh Allen Blackwell (R-86), ALEC Civil Justice Task Force Member [3]
Rep. Jamie Boles (R-52), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. William Brawley (R-103), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Bill Brisson (D-22), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Rayne Brown (R-81), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Justin P. Burr (R-67), ALEC Public Safety and Elections Task Force Member,[4] attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. George Cleveland (R-14)[5][6]
Rep. John Faircloth (R-61), ALEC member according to July 2013 email to constituent[7]
Rep. Mike Hager (R-112), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Kelly Hastings (R-110), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Bryan R. Holloway (R-91), ALEC Education Task Force Alternate[8]
Rep. D. Craig Horn (R-68)[1], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Julia Howard (R-79), ALEC Health and Human Services Task Force Member[9] , attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Linda P. Johnson (R-83), ALEC Education Task Force Member[10] , attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. David Lewis (R-53), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Susan Martin (R-8)[1]
Rep. Chuck McGrady (R-117), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Tim Moffitt (R-116)[1], ALEC International Relations Task Force Member[11] and Communications and Technology Task Force Alternate[12], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Tim K. Moore (R-111), ALEC Public Safety and Elections Task Force Member,[4] attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Tom Murry (R-41), ALEC Health and Human Services Task Force Member[13] , attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Jason Saine (R-97)[1]
Rep. Ruth Samuelson (R-104), ALEC Energy, Environment and Agriculture Task Force Member[14] , attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Paul B. Stam, Jr. (R-37), ALEC Civil Justice Task Force[15] Member, attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Sarah Stevens (R-90)[1], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Mike Stone (R-51), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Speaker Thom Tillis (R-98), ALEC International Relations Task Force Member[16] , 2011 ALEC State Legislator of the Year[17], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. John Torbett (R-108), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Harry Warren (R-77), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Senate
Sen. Tom Apodaca (R-48), ALEC Education Task Force Member[18]
Rep. Bill Cook (R-1), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Former Representatives
Rep. Jeff Barnhart (R-82), ALEC Health and Human Services Task Force Member[19] , attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Former Speaker James B. Black [20]
Former Rep. Curtis Blackwood (R-68), ALEC Energy, Environment and Agriculture Task Force member,[21] ALEC Education Task Force member 2003-2004[22]
Rep. Harold Brubaker (R-78), member of ALEC Board of Directors[23], Public Sector Chair of the International Relations Task Force[24] and attended the 2011 ALEC Annual Meeting[2] Civil Justice Task Force Member [25]
Rep. William Current (R-109), ALEC Health and Human Services Task Force Member[26]
Former Rep. Jerry C. Dockham (R-80), ALEC Commerce, Insurance and Economic Development Task Force Member[27]
Rep. Dale Robbins Folwell (R-74), ALEC Tax and Fiscal Policy Task Force Member[28], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Ric Killian (R-105), ALEC Energy, Environment and Agriculture Task Force Member[29]
Rep. Stephen A. LaRoque (R-10), ALEC Commerce, Insurance and Economic Development Task Force Member, attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Daniel F. McComas (R-19), ALEC Communications and Technology Task Force Member[30] (current chairman of the North Carolina State Ports Authority Board of Directors)
Rep. Darrell McCormick (R-92), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Rep. Richard Morgan, currently running for NC Commissioner of Insurance. [31]
Rep. Bill Owens (D-1), attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2] (declined to seek election in 2012)
Rep. Fred Steen (R-76), ALEC State Chairman[32] and Commerce, Insurance and Economic Development Task Force Member[33], attended ALEC 2011 Annual Meeting[2]
Former Senators
Sen. David Rouzer (R-12), ALEC Tax and Fiscal Policy Task Force Member[34]
Sen. Donald Ray Vaughan (D-27), ALEC Education Task Force Member[35]
Rep. Connie Wilson. [31]
North Carolina ALEC Politicians - SourceWatch

Now let's take a look at what has been privatized and what is being privatized:

Vouchers seen as winning ticket for NC private schools :: WRAL.com
Privatization of NC Commerce gets under way - Charlotte Business Journal
North Carolina Mental Health System | In the Public Interest
North Carolina's HHS secretary looking for payers to help her privatize Medicaid - MedCity News
Privatizing NC

Starving the Beast: Art Pope, Pat McCrory, and the N.C. budget - Poking the Hornet's Nest - January 2013 - Charlotte, NC
 

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Teacher unions have nothing to do with the low wages NC teachers get paid. It seems to me you don't want high quality teachers since you think they are no different than someone who serves you coffee.

Teachers unions have nothing to do with low wages, but everything to do with excessive wages. Also, higher wages are not necessarily indictive of higher quality workstaff. Better selection of employees is. If you were to double teachersv wages, it does not mean that those not worth the extra bucks will decide to move on, or that they will be replaced with better employees. It just means higher cost. Unions typically reject proficiency pay and low man out compensation practice in favor of longevity raises.
 

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

I believe a flat tax system is fair, but only if all deductions and all exceptions are eliminated. Otherwise it's just another path for cheating.

And that is the problem with a flat tax. When Forbes proposed his flat tax, the first sentence was the flat tax, no exemptions. The second sentence was a deduction for families.

No politician will ever approve a flat tax. It takes away the right to buy votes with the tax system.
 

rabbitcaebannog

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Re: What is up with North Carolina's flat state tax?

Teachers unions have nothing to do with low wages, but everything to do with excessive wages. Also, higher wages are not necessarily indictive of higher quality workstaff. Better selection of employees is. If you were to double teachersv wages, it does not mean that those not worth the extra bucks will decide to move on, or that they will be replaced with better employees. It just means higher cost. Unions typically reject proficiency pay and low man out compensation practice in favor of longevity raises.

I believe his beef was that NC teachers were getting excessive wages. In reality NC is known for paying their teachers poorly compared to other states. They don't have collective bargaining rights, hence the poor pay. I was being tongue and cheek when I said it's not unions fault for their low wages since union have no say about teacher wages in NC. With all that said, NC's teachers wages and unions is a moot point and completely off topic. Your other points are all opinions and have zilch to do with the OP.
 
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