What is socialism?

[Kelzie]

Stores do it all the time when it comes to shoplifting,paas the cost to consumer to make up losses.

And yet, rich people don't do it when the get an undeserved tax cut.

The whole thing with the stores? That's not the trickle down affect. Shoplifting is one of the costs of doing business, much like shipping costs are. The stores make you pay for it, because that's how they make a profit.

 

[jamesrage]

And yet, rich people don't do it when the get an undeserved tax cut.

The whole thing with the stores? That's not the trickle down affect. Shoplifting is one of the costs of doing business, much like shipping costs are. The stores make you pay for it, because that's how they make a profit.

Taxes are one of the costs of doing business,much the same way as supplies,wages and many other things required for doing business.

 

[TJS0110]

I wish we could just take people out of the equation, it would fix things. Sorry to be cynicul but its all i can say.

 

[Androvski]

Yet another Lenin apologist. It was Lenin that created the predecesor to the KGB. Yeah he was a great guy wasn't he?

Red rose tinted view of Lenin?

If anything Marxism can be achieved in a capitalist system, by allowing workers to invest in their own companies and share the company profits. I think the greatest folly was to think that capitalism, can only be opposed by nationalising any business or corporation. That misses the point, because at the end of workers' master has only changed, and the wage struture, not the actual way in which the workers interact with the company.

KGB during Communism,Mafia now!

 

[Kelzie]

Taxes are one of the costs of doing business,much the same way as supplies,wages and many other things required for doing business.

Yesss...What's you point?

 

[Comrade Brian]

Yet another Lenin apologist. It was Lenin that created the predecesor to the KGB. Yeah he was a great guy wasn't he?

Red rose tinted view of Lenin?

If anything Marxism can be achieved in a capitalist system, by allowing workers to invest in their own companies and share the company profits. I think the greatest folly was to think that capitalism, can only be opposed by nationalising any business or corporation. That misses the point, because at the end of workers' master has only changed, and the wage struture, not the actual way in which the workers interact with the company.

What the NKVD? Isn't it sort of like the CIA etc.

In Communism people are not forced to work from fear of starvation, homelessness, etc. as which happens a lot under capitalism.

 

[Comrade Brian]

KGB during Communism,Mafia now!

Good assesment. USSR was totalitarian, Modern Russia politics are so corrupt you think you think you're voting in a socialist who will help poor people, but will crush them by the Mob. USSR was better more social programs etc.

 

[asmith555]

Correct, I don't own the thread. I just hoped that if I nicely asked people not to do this kind of thing they wouldn't. Sorry I expected better manners from you asmith555. I won't make that mistake again.

And, while I have no ownership of the thread, you are off topic, and I would again request that you not give me your opinion as a capitalist, because I really don't want it. If you want to argue against socialism, maybe post capitalist reading material, instead of creating a bad image for the other capitalists that are far better mannered than you.

You do not know what you want. What you should and shouldn't hear should be decided by the government.

 

[ncallaway]

Well, thank you for that gem asmith555. That really contributes to the discussion in a meaningful way. It really points out your inability to make a sound, reasoned argument.

asmith555, I would like to make one final request that, out of the goodness of your heart, you prented like this thread isn't here. Just ignore it. It's a bunch of socialist propoganda anyway, right? So just stop clicking on the thread titled "What is socialism?". I really don't want to hear what you have to say here. If you wanted to, you could go off and create a thread titled "What socialism is." I'll be happy to discuss it there with you.

 

[nkgupta80]

In Communism people are not forced to work from fear of starvation, homelessness, etc.

thats the whole essense of work.... keep ourselves away from starvation, homelessness, etc. How the hell can you work for any other reason. It all boils down to survival in the end. Once that is accomplished, then you work for luxuries and/or the greater good of the society.

 

[Nezdragon]

Ok, I would love it if everyone would stop using emotions and back up their arguments with FACTS from REPUTABLE sources. Moveon.org and other fringe groups are NOT reputable. So don't spout nonsense, give a fact-based mature argument. Please.

What the NKVD? Isn't it sort of like the CIA etc.

In Communism people are not forced to work from fear of starvation, homelessness, etc. as which happens a lot under capitalism.

I would like you to name a country that has done better than capitalist and democratic America. Almost all of the technological developments of the past two centuries have been spawned as a part of competition. Another place where great leaps and bounds have been made are wars. This last century has been the most violent. We have also developed the most groundbreaking tech developments of time, I.E. the plane, car, assembly line, jet engine, atomic power and weaponry, computers, the internet, television, radios, all manner of space vehicles (thanks in part to the Cold War), and mass production. Guess who's been making a lot of this? Competition and wars have been quite productive.
On the topic of forced labor, did Stalin not work tens of millions of his people to death? Did Pol Pot not work millions of Cambodians to death? And Mao's China tops all of them at an estimated 60 million deaths from famine, which could have been prevented easily. Communism is estimated to have directly caused the deaths of 100 MILLION PEOPLE. Does anyone see this as wrong? And where is the UN and the Security Council during the current genocides in Sudan? China is one of 5 permanent members on the security council, and can instantly veto decisions on the floor. They have not allowed action in the Sudan. Why? Because there's oil there. They do not care about the deaths. It is incredible how Communism has destroyed, and continues to destroy, so much. "It does not matter if 3/4 of the world's population died, because the remaining 1/4 would be Communist." Quote from Lenin. It goes to show how uncaring Communism is.

And the military might be effective. But we don't need it as big as it is, nor do we need to spend that much money on it.

Why do we need a large military? Honestly, what country is going to attack us?

Well, tends to help to keep informed. China is currently expanding their military, modernizing equipment, etc. They are making more amphibious vehicles, more warships, submarines, and ballistic missiles that will engage in evasive maneuvers to thwart anti missile defenses. These missiles can carry nukes, and the amphibious units may be used for an attack on Taiwan. If China attacks Taiwan, we have pledged to defend them. The 'million man army' of North Korea, backed with nuclear weapons, plus a modernized Chinese military, would probably start WW3. Japan is also concerned about the military buildup, and the intrusion of a Han nuclear sub in Japanese waters caused Japan to directly refer to China in a defense report for the first time since WW2.

Our large military is also the best funded and best equipped in the world (probably the best trained too). If things keep going the way they are, we will need them.

Socialism may have free handouts like social security and healthcare, but the money doesn't grow on trees. It takes a pretty high tax rate to pay for all those provisions (I hear France is at 70% income tax. I doubt even you, Kelzie, would be happy to pay that. You could save lots of money by leaving the government out).

I hope you all learn something from this post. That, after all, is why I posted. :mrgreen:

 

[dragonslayer]

There never was,, nor has been any socialism in our country.

What is socialism?? Ok let us check the dictionary.

so•cial•ism

Pronunciation: (sōo'shu-liz"um),

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles. Cf. utopian socialism.

It clear from reading many of the posts here that to many people are listening to Rush and not paying real attention to the Bushshit he spouts from his drugged haze..


Now I get Social Security and Medicare. I paid every month that I worked from my first job in 1957 to the day I retired in 2002 for Social Security and Medicare. Money was deducted from my check every time I got a check (usually every two weeks during the last 30 years) to pay for my Social Security and Medicare. This is in addition to the fed and state tax that was withheld.. To this day, the fed deducts a premium each month from my social security for Medicare. Medicare cost almost exactly what I pay for my other Medical Insurance to supplement . I worked all my life and paid for social security every month. There is no give away in Social Security. It is bought and paid for by me and the other who get it, except for some types of Social Security Disability. I don’t mind helping the disabled live. I know that you right wing types want see the disabled die.

Socialism has not ever been part of the anything in the United States. there is no give away of anything in this country. Medicare and Social Security are paid the same as my paying for private retirement (which I did )and private medical insurance, ( which I do.)

There is huge fund with hundreds of Billions of Dollars collected from workers, sitting in Government accounts. that pays for social Security and there is another similar accounts for Medicare. Social Security and Medicare are solvent till the year 2020, and with a small increase in social security deductions you too can have Medicare and Social Security. Not me, not my brothers and sisters, I mean you who will retire later. Pay the additional deduction and it will not cost the Government nothing. when you retire. Mine retirement is paid for by me lock stock and barrel,

Stop listening to Bush lies. the Social Security System is solvent. The whole cost for administration and distribution of Social Securitiy funds is paid for by the Social Security Fund itself. this is not Government Money, this is money paid by Millions of hard working American workers. There is no government handout envolved in Social Security or Medicare.

Now the corporate rulers of this country, are pissed off because they want to take this fund that is worker’s money, and use it to pay back the funds that are being borrowed from the Central Bank of China, for the cost of the of Bush’s war in Iraq, and to enhance the pockets of Bush and his Corporate Lovers.

So what do we hear over and over? we hear Bushshit about the terrible Social Security system. The corporate goal is make stupid Right Wingers lose confidence in Social Security and make folks think that is some sort of public dole. That is pure trash. I paid and pay for every single benefit I get from Social Security. So will my kids and so will all you misinformed right wing idiots.


One more thing, the fund pays for all social security and makes interest profit to boot. Problem is that it is making money for fund rather than, Corporatisim and Bush hates to see working people get anything. We need to remember that Bush was raised in a dream world of privilege and power. Bush is still in this dream world. Pure Elitism.

 

[Comrade Brian]

To Nez Dragon:

First of all the US isn't democratic, businesses are for the most part totalitarian, workers have no say in what they produce and what they do with their labor. And electoral votes negate popular ones.

Is not cooperation better than competition? Peace better than war?

And Stalin contradicted Communism on many terms. He was friendly towards Hitler, and Hitler cosidered Communists as bad or even worse than Jews and Slavs and many, many other ethnicities. And people still didn't control their labor.

I believe the US is on the security council, why don't they help the Sudanese. Instead our government attacked a country to revenge people killed on 9/11 and supposed WMD's. And that country had nothing to do 9/11 and hadn't had WMD's since the 1st Gulf War. It was a war for Iraqi oil.

I wouldn't say Communism is directly responsible for those deaths or Capitalism is (which it really is) responsible for the slavery in Europe and US, Colonialism or Imperialism, which ever you prefer to call it, is responsible pretty much for all the 3rd world. Such as Africa. Communism still has yet to be implemented.

Where did you get these figures? The Black Book of Communism? Our Capitalist media?

I think Mao was a great revolutionary/guerrila leader/tactician, but he was a terrible politician.

And what's with the UN? It pretty much is US dominated.

And didn't Vietnam invade Cambodia? And why is China becoming corporate-controlled?

 

[128shot]

I must ask,

why do socialists only play the guilt card? Everything else has been so far theroretical, and not proven by any country thus far.

Capitalism has a bigger deck, under capitalism, humans have thrived, technology has developed, and our over all living condition HAS RAISED (believe it or not, you can't play the guilt card forever)

Just sayin, if you want to convince me socialism is the answer, you need a whole hell of alot more than guilt.

 

[dragonslayer]

I must ask,

why do socialists only play the guilt card? Everything else has been so far theroretical, and not proven by any country thus far.

Capitalism has a bigger deck, under capitalism, humans have thrived, technology has developed, and our over all living condition HAS RAISED (believe it or not, you can't play the guilt card forever)

Just sayin, if you want to convince me socialism is the answer, you need a whole hell of alot more than guilt.

Socialism is not the answer. Heartless Capitalism controlled by government, so it does not destroy people, tempered by tax based programs that promote equality, jobs, health, and increase markets for capitalism, seem to be the Ideal base for a National Economic Base. Capitalists make huge money when there govenment people programs, but they don't have Corporate power.

Capitalism uncontrolled by government representing the poor and the workers leads to eploitation that only leads to greed and power by Corporatism. Uncontrolled corporatiism lead to rebellions and civil war, and to communism.

what medical and social programs we have,, and the Welfare we had and have, are not socialism.. Anyone who thinks so and spouts this Bushshit, is totallly uninformed.

 

[128shot]

I didn't say we were living in a socialist like country or any of that.

I just got to thinking after debating (nope, didn't argue, strangely) with many socialists, that all they start their arguement with off the top is the guilt card, and gradual it becomes nothing but theroretical nonsense.

So far, at least.

 

[Nezdragon]

To Nez Dragon:
First of all the US isn't democratic, businesses are for the most part totalitarian, workers have no say in what they produce and what they do with their labor. And electoral votes negate popular ones.

If a worker does not like what they produce/what they do with their labor, they can/should quit. Not easy to do that in a Communist country like, say, North Korea?

Is not cooperation better than competition? Peace better than war?

Yes, peace/cooperation is better, but not all the time. You cannot cooperate with people who have been indoctrinated to hate you. War is hell, but sometimes the alternatives are FAR worse.

And Stalin contradicted Communism on many terms. He was friendly towards Hitler, and Hitler cosidered Communists as bad or even worse than Jews and Slavs and many, many other ethnicities. And people still didn't control their labor.

I would like to see a Communist country where people DO control their labor, not just the ruling government. And like I said earlier, name a Communist country that has done better than America.

I believe the US is on the security council, why don't they help the Sudanese.

Yes, the US is on the security council. But we alone cannot persuade the UN to act. After all, Kofi Annan doesn't want to damage his business deals with France and China. The UN is incapable of acting on such a thing effectively because of its extremely flawed setup.

Instead our government attacked a country to revenge people killed on 9/11 and supposed WMD's. And that country had nothing to do 9/11 and hadn't had WMD's since the 1st Gulf War. It was a war for Iraqi oil.

If someone killed a member of your immediate family, wouldn't you want to bring the killer to justice?
There are terrorists in Iraq killing American soldiers right now. Where do you think they got trained in how to make Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), and use a cell phone to detonate it? Where did they learn to shoot rifles, RPG's, etc.
And how do you know that WMD's aren't there? We are talking about a giant desert the size of California, looking for equipment that would fit in a 2-car garage. Our troops have sat on dozens of jets for months without knowing they were there.

Time for some math. Iraq exports 1.5 million barrels of oil a day. Price of a barrel is at about $64. This is equal to 96 million dollars per day. For one year (365 days) Iraq exports a net total of 35 billion dollars of oil. Thats $70 billion for two years of export. We have spent something around $150 billion dollars on the war. Where is the $80 billion we are missing?
Let's say we shall be the mean American corporates some may speak of and take ALL of Iraq's oil production. This is 2 million barrels of oil a day. $64 a barrel comes up to $128 million a day. One year is equal to 46.7 billion dollars of oil. Two years comes up to $93.4 billion. Even if we take all of Iraq's oil, we still do not come close to the total for the war! Why would we bother rebuilding their country if we just want the oil anyway? And yes, we are rebuilding it. You just don't hear about it.

Where did you get these figures? The Black Book of Communism? Our Capitalist media?

Independant research into multiple reliable sources. Then I added two and two (and a couple 3's and 1's), and got my answer. It is an estimate, so give or take a billion or two.

I think Mao was a great revolutionary/guerrila leader/tactician, but he was a terrible politician.

If it had been a democracy they could have voted him out of office...
60 million people is not terrible. It's plain disgusting. No one is that bad a politician, unless they don't care.

And what's with the UN? It pretty much is US dominated.

I don't know what's up with the UN either. They have been too indecisive to make any conclusions!
If they were US dominated, don't you think they would have contributed to the War on Terror?

And didn't Vietnam invade Cambodia?

Thank God they did. I don't know why they did, but its a good thing they did. I will have to do more research on the causes of the invasion, because i don't know enough about it to make a point at this time.

And why is China becoming corporate-controlled?

Maybe they realize that Capitalism works...
They aren't controlled by corporations though. They're just taking advantage of the benevolent Americans pouring money into their system.

I am completely ignoring dragonslayer's last two comments. There is no point in arguing with someone who works completely on emotions and disregards the facts. Obviously he doesn't know anything about so-called "right wingers" other than what Moveon.org may be telling him... :doh
Open your eyes and stop looking through a biased lens...

Social security isn't going to be destroyed, it should be turned from a government handout to something you can choose to pay for. Healthcare works this way. I think it works pretty darn well that way. Why people choose to go without it, I don't know.
Privatization would allow everyone to have a personal account that they dump money into, as opposed to the possibility that the government spends it. Why this is a bad idea, I don't know. It would mean less government. Less government is good, unless you're in France (70% income tax for those "free" handouts...).

If anyone wants to rant, rave, swear, argue, debate, agree, disagree, or surrender, please do so with facts (unless you surrender :lol: ). It makes things easier for all of us.

 

[128shot]

I surrendered to capitalism long ago.

Viva la Smith!!!!!

 

[jimmyjack]

What convinced me to go socialist were their stances on the issues, so here are the ones I agree with:

-state funded, 24-hour child care
-one year paid leave for new parents (split if there's two parents)
-legalization of gay marriage


.....blah....blah....blah....


government control of all businesses

Here's the US Socialist Party website if you want more information.

You forgot to add the killing of unborn humans to your list.

Socialism is communism in disguise; in fact socialism is just communism under a different name.

 

[Comrade Brian]

To Nez Dragon again:

If a worker would quit his job his chances of being impovershed are extraordinarily high, and since no one wants to live like that and in some cases can die, they are forced to sell their labor in what keeps them living and doesn't go much higher, the reason living standards increased since the Industrial Revolution is in a large part to workers uniting, like in unions. And I have yet to see a 'communist' country which is impossible under communism because there really isn't a state.

And if a terrorist killed a member of my family, I would know he probably did it to protest US domination in Arabia or where ever, and since terrorism tries to instill fear in people, our president I count as one, he instills fear by ravaging on about terrorists, and war is terrorism. Like if you don't submit, you'll be conquered. And the US has killed more people than they did to us. Its sort of funny but Al-Qaeda was supplied and trained by the CIA.

And I have yet to see a democracy. Not this crap corporate-republic people call democracy that is in the US. But in the US there is democracy, for the Bourgeois. And I believe four presidents have been elected electorally and not popularally.

And you forget the taxpayers are paying for most of the entire war, but do not collect the oil wealth, the Bougeois do that, reap the benefits.

I don't know where WMD's are but the US sure has got a lot, and we've even nuked a country, twice! Oh, Boy!

Funny thing with the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese were trying to rid themselves of French domination, and than they tried to unify their country, and the US tried to stop them and in doing so killed around 3,000,000 Vietnamese, twice the amount of Pol Pot. Ho Chi Minh did well. LBJ didn't. And I should thank the Anti-War people, who don't want war for Imperialist reasons.

Most people are contributing to the 'War on Terror', they want to get rid of Bush the largest terrorist of them all, they just don't think that 'War on Terrorism' is submitting themselves to US domination. And wars are terror.

The Chinese leaders are capitalist because they are slaves to their extraordinary greed as most wealthy and powerful people are.

Oh, I hope the markets collapse again. Like in the G. Depression, it will make people like you realize that capitalism is unsastainable.

The Bougeois are powerful because they have wealth and wealth=power in capitalism, workers have close to no wealth which equals close to no power, until they unify.

Oh yes, another thing our government is controlled by Bourgeois, and most of our Senators, Presidents, and Representitives are Bourgeois or are close enough. Like I said before wealth=power. I am for complete elimination of the executive branch and the senate, putting power to the H. of Representitives.

To Jimmyjack:

Socialism and Communism are quite separate, despite whatever likenesses they have, Communism just is closer to Socialism than to capitalism.

 

[V.I. Lenin]

Hm. I think I should simply say what I propose.

Comrade Brian seems pretty intent on implimenting a pure socialist system. I however, am not.

I know that pure socialism will fail. I also know pure captialism with thrive, at the disadvantage of the middle and lower class. I simply want them both.

We in America don't have the both. All I want is for America to be similar to, say, Sweden.

Socialism is the best idea for your conscience.

Capitalism is the best idea for your wallet.


If only Marx and Smith had met. Maybe they couldn't made something great. (Or beaten each other to death)

 

[Comrade Brian]

Yeah, maybe.

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is, in reality, instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have property against those who have none at all."

- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

 

[128shot]

this is bad because?


Rich is a term, not a glorified life style, that statement can be taken literally but I don't think that would make sense....

 

[Comrade Brian]

Rich is also a lifestyle, they're people who don't have to work to make profits. But workers have to labor to make profits. And the rich get their profits from owning capital, and then reap the wealth of the worker who labored for him.

 

[128shot]

Well, define work. I'm sure they work somewhere, some how, in some way, to keep on reaping profits.


Management is a nessarcy skill weither you believe that or not...