What is more important in the military? (1 Viewer)

[SpooK]

I am curious to hear what is more important when discussing the military. Select your answer and tell us why.


Feel free to tell us of something else if you feel it is more important and please share why.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Don't see any choices, SpooK.

EDIT: sorry...too quick a response.:doh

 

[Kandahar]

It depends entirely on what we're talking about. "Personal desires" are more important if we're talking about, say, allowing our taxpayer-funded military to discriminate against its citizens. "Overall military effectiveness" is more important if we're talking about, say, the desire of a PFC to access the nuclear launch codes.

 

[SpooK]

It depends entirely on what we're talking about. "Personal desires" are more important if we're talking about, say, allowing our taxpayer-funded military to discriminate against its citizens. "Overall military effectiveness" is more important if we're talking about, say, the desire of a PFC to access the nuclear launch codes.

I am referring to personal desires of the members of the military, i.e. wanting to miss ship's movement to spend some leave time at home, being openly gay, or deciding you would rather play madden 2k7 instead of installing a much needed UPS to one of your equipment racks.

Are there any personal desires that are more important than military effectiveness?

 

[Kandahar]

I am referring to personal desires of the members of the military, i.e. wanting to miss ship's movement to spend some leave time at home, being openly gay, or deciding you would rather play madden 2k7 instead of installing a much needed UPS to one of your equipment racks.

Are there any personal desires that are more important than military effectiveness?

Two of those things you listed are things that people DO. One is something that people ARE. You have three choices...I'll give you three guesses to find the one that doesn't belong. Let's play our game.

 

[SpooK]

Two of those things you listed are things that people DO. One is something that people ARE. You have three choices...I'll give you three guesses to find the one that doesn't belong. Let's play our game.

Allow me to rephrase then: I am referring to personal desires of the members of the military, i.e. wanting to miss ship's movement to spend some leave time at home, openly-express your homosexuality, or deciding you would rather play madden 2k7 instead of installing a much needed UPS to one of your equipment racks.

Are there any personal desires that are more important than military effectiveness?

 

[Kandahar]

Allow me to rephrase then: I am referring to personal desires of the members of the military, i.e. wanting to miss ship's movement to spend some leave time at home, openly-express your homosexuality, or deciding you would rather play madden 2k7 instead of installing a much needed UPS to one of your equipment racks.

Are there any personal desires that are more important than military effectiveness?

Openly expressing homosexuality doesn't interfere with your job, any more than openly expressing heterosexuality does. Now if a soldier is AWOL because he's screwing his boyfriend, that's a different matter entirely.

 

[SpooK]

Openly expressing homosexuality doesn't interfere with your job, any more than openly expressing heterosexuality does. Now if a soldier is AWOL because he's screwing his boyfriend, that's a different matter entirely.

I think that is a matter of opinion, isnt it?

If people in the military were to feel uncomfortable around gays, not trust them, or just not want to be around them(Whether it is right or wrong). Wouldnt that decrease military effectiveness?

 

[SpooK]

Thanks CaptainCourtesy :mrgreen:

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

Thread has been modified to be a public poll. Those that have already voted will need to revote

 

[Kandahar]

If people in the military were to feel uncomfortable around gays, not trust them, or just not want to be around them(Whether it is right or wrong). Wouldnt that decrease military effectiveness?

If people in the military were to feel uncomfortable around blacks, not trust them, or just not want to be around them(Whether it is right or wrong). Wouldnt that decrease military effectiveness?


Amazing how changing that one word can frame your argument in an entirely different light. :roll:

 

[SpooK]

If people in the military were to feel uncomfortable around blacks, not trust them, or just not want to be around them(Whether it is right or wrong). Wouldnt that decrease military effectiveness?

Yes, indeed it would. However, there are a couple things wrong with citing black people as an example. 1, being black is not a personal desire. 2, there are a lot more black people than gay people. 3, it used to be that way, but then white people woke up and felt differently about black people, which eliminated the effectiveness factor. Not to mention it is illegal to discriminate against people because of color (not sexuality) due to the Executive Order 9981 found here.

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the President that there shall be equality of treatment and opportunity for all persons in the armed services without regard to race, color, religion or national origin. This policy shall be put into effect as rapidly as possible, having due regard to the time required to effectuate any necessary changes without impairing efficiency or morale.

 

[cherokee]

I am referring to personal desires of the members of the military, i.e. wanting to miss ship's movement to spend some leave time at home, being openly gay, or deciding you would rather play madden 2k7 instead of installing a much needed UPS to one of your equipment racks.

Are there any personal desires that are more important than military effectiveness?

Hmm maybe I'm missing something here but if you wanted to spend more time with your family you really shouldn’t join the Military....:doh

Our military effectiveness is and always will be the most important thing

 

[Kandahar]

Yes, indeed it would. However, there are a couple things wrong with citing black people as an example. 1, being black is not a personal desire.

Neither is being gay. Why would anyone choose to suffer discrimination?

2, there are a lot more black people than gay people.

Irrelevant.

3, it used to be that way, but then white people woke up and felt differently about black people, which eliminated the effectiveness factor.

They didn't "wake up" until AFTER blacks were allowed to serve in the military. The same will probably happen for gays.

Not to mention it is illegal to discriminate against people because of color (not sexuality) due to the Executive Order 9981 found here.

Citing the law in an argument about what the law should be is a circular argument.


People sign up for the military with the knowledge that they may be asked to fight, kill, and die for their country in some god-forsaken desert. To claim concern about them being "uncomfortable" about having gays in their ranks is ludicrous.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Personal anything rarely matters in the Military. you are there for a purpose, your feeling on that are not important. The overall effectiveness is

 

[Goobieman]

People sign up for the military with the knowledge that they may be asked to fight, kill, and die for their country in some god-forsaken desert. To claim concern about them being "uncomfortable" about having gays in their ranks is ludicrous.

Similarly, they also sign up knowing that they will give up many of the rights and liberties and freedoms they enjoyed as a civilian. To argue that their homosexuality is necessarily immune to this is ludicrous.

 

[SpooK]

Similarly, they also sign up knowing that they will give up many of the rights and liberties and freedoms they enjoyed as a civilian. To argue that their homosexuality is necessarily immune to this is ludicrous.

You might want to get with Caine. He disagrees with the fact that military personnel arent completely guarenteed all their rights and liberties in the constitution.

 

[Goobieman]

You might want to get with Caine. He disagrees with the fact that military personnel arent completely guarenteed all their rights and liberties in the constitution.

Caine is supposed to be a soldier - and if so, he should know better.

One might ask Caine what would happen to him if he were to put a sign on the side of his helmet that read something to the effect of "President Bush is a lying sack of shi'ite".

One might also ask Caine what would happen should he decide to date a female officer in his chain of command.

 

[SpooK]

Caine is supposed to be a soldier - and if so, he should know better.

One might ask Caine what would happen to him if he were to put a sign on the side of his helmet that read something to the effect of "President Bush is a lying sack of shi'ite".

One might also ask Caine what would happen should he decide to date a female officer in his chain of command.

One has asked similiar questions, however Caine still disagrees and is now refusing to continue the debate.

He wants to agree to disagree.

 

[Goobieman]

One has asked similiar questions, however Caine still disagrees and is now refusing to continue the debate.

He wants to agree to disagree.

Thats because he is wrong, he knows it, and he won't admit it.

 

[Kandahar]

Similarly, they also sign up knowing that they will give up many of the rights and liberties and freedoms they enjoyed as a civilian. To argue that their homosexuality is necessarily immune to this is ludicrous.

Giving up rights/liberties/freedoms so that they can perform their duties is fine...they know what they're getting into when they sign up. Giving up rights/liberties/freedoms just so that someone else (who might be asked to die for his country) feels less "uncomfortable" is absurd.

Being gay has absolutely NOTHING to do with their ability to perform their duties as a soldier. To ban someone from the military because they're a guy who likes guys would be just as stupid as banning someone because they're a guy who likes heavy metal music.

 

[Goobieman]

Giving up rights/liberties/freedoms so that they can perform their duties is fine...they know what they're getting into when they sign up.

The presumption here being that an openly homosexual soldier -can- preform his duties, whatever they may be. How do you know this to be true?

And please note that there is more to this answer than just being able to physically/mentally do so, as one must conclude from the prohibitions I mentioned earlier.

 

[SpooK]

Thats because he is wrong, he knows it, and he won't admit it.

I just noticed Caine feels personal desires are more important (as to how he voted in the thread). I just dont see how you served in the military Caine.

Hrm, it says 2 people voted for personal desires but only Caine's name is listed. What is the deal with that?

 

[Kandahar]

The presumption here being that an openly homosexual soldier -can- preform his duties, whatever they may be. How do you know this to be true?

And please note that there is more to this answer than just being able to physically/mentally do so, as one must conclude from the prohibitions I mentioned earlier.

Umm I'm not sure what you're asking...

A soldier's duties don't generally include having sex with the opposite gender...

 

[Goobieman]

Umm I'm not sure what you're asking...

I'm asking you how you know a openly homosexual soldier will be able to premorm all his duties, and reminding you that there's more to his duties than just being able to preform the physical/mental tasks of his MOS.

A soldier's duties don't generally include having sex with the opposite gender...

But, in some cases, sex with the opposite gender is prohibited.
Why do you suppose that is?