What Is It To Be An American To You?

[Fledermaus]

Please notice, resorting to ridicule as I stated previously.

Substantially more than 172000 but not one was of Jewish extraction!

Stop looking for sympathy, my German friend.

So you would accept Aipac those running America and Israel eye to release all those documents, of all those who died in those camps.....yes or no is this answer..... or what excuse this time?

More babble. Zero citation.

You quote 172,000 in the Nuremberg trials. I proved the 172,000 had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

The rest of your accusations are ignored. But I will look at any CITATION you have for Holocaust related documents you imagine AIPAC has....

And why does a Scot suck so bad at the Queen's English?

 

[Highlanders]

More babble. Zero citation.

You quote 172,000 in the Nuremberg trials. I proved the 172,000 had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

The rest of your accusations are ignored. But I will look at any CITATION you have for Holocaust related documents you imagine AIPAC has....

And why does a Scot suck so bad at the Queen's English?

With respect my German friend, you proved nothing.... absolutely nothing at all!
And we see yet again, divert, mock and ridicule..... at no time did I say AIPAC had any documents, but my German friend knows exactly the documents I'm talking about! And knows exactly the mountain side they all reside.

In exactly the same manner, I know Japans plans were known, before Pearl Harbour, and the ships left, and the men and women left in pearl harbour were bait!

In the same manner the USS Liberty and the eighty men murdered by Israel, on the ship and straffed in the water, were never given justice, because someone had the authority and the inclination to protect Israel rather than fellow Americans.
Can you see a pattern emerging?

So what if I don't speak the queens english, perhaps it's because I'm certainly not English and she isn't my queen... the usurper cannot by law, call herself queen of Scotland....ever!

 

[enderpotato00]

Neither of those poll options really work for me.

For me, being an American means being part of a wonderful experiment in self rule. As we go along, our population learns and grows (or at least I hope it does, I have been doubting about ability to grow as a people lately). We are a huge nation full of many cultures and mix (and balance) of cultures is the source of the nations beauty. We are a free society that allows a mix of perspectives, but also creates a huge space to respect the individual and their own way of life (again with balance between those two concerns). The beauty is in all of that, America is always transforming and recreating itself.

The purpose of an American citizen is to participate in that transformation and growth, to learn how to be a better individual and to be a better collective. The rights enshrined in the constitution allow that room for growth and maturity without locking us into too rigid of a culture.

Unfortunately, there are some who sadly cannot handle this openness and would prefer to lock us in some idea of glory from the past.

If you want self-rule, we need to ditch the idea that liberty is all about "liberating" the individual from constraints and replace it with the fact that liberty can only be fostered through virtue and discipline. The liberal model leads us to become slaves of our desires, and that isn't freedom. You are allowed to have desires and to act upon them, but in a controlled manner and not compulsive is what I'm saying. THAT's freedom.

We also need to bring back the family as the primary unit. Without it, society turns into self-indulgent, apathetic, depressed, disconnected individuals. This is the society that liberalism fostered. Liberalism destroyed the family.

 

[Luther]

The education is not free, so...

That's beside the point

The point is, people joint the military solely on getting a free education

Not... because of Patriotism

 

[Slartibartfast]

If you want self-rule, we need to ditch the idea that liberty is all about "liberating" the individual from constraints and replace it with the fact that liberty can only be fostered through virtue and discipline. The liberal model leads to us to become slaves of our desires, and that isn't freedom. You are allowed to have desires and to act upon them, but in a controlled manner and not compulsive is what I'm saying.

I would disagree. One's relationship to their ID is a personal and not a political thing. There are plenty of people of any political stripe that are disciplined or not.

Also, this whole idea is asinine and overly simplistic as well. The very existence of functional alcoholics invalidates your point, as a simple example.

Lastly, you do realize that the idea of a growing and learning culture would be one that is self reflective (meaning the at least a modicum of the type of discipline you espouse would be present) ... which would lead to your point, but again, I suggest you think a bit deeper.

 

[enderpotato00]

I would disagree. One's relationship to their ID is a personal and not a political thing. There are plenty of people of any political stripe that are disciplined or not.

Also, this whole idea is asinine and overly simplistic as well. The very existence of functional alcoholics invalidates your point, as a simple example.

Lastly, you do realize that the idea of a growing culture would be one that is self reflective ... which would lead to your point, but again, I suggest you think a bit deeper.

#1: Liberalism doesn't support the idea of a growing culture, it supports the idea of homogenization. To "liberate the individual", ALL traditions would have to be erased or changed. The past would have to be erased. For example, the idea of the family fostering all moral teachings unto the children was considered "arbitrary constraint", so we shifted away from that to allowing the state to teach us all the morals, etc.

#2: Functional alcoholics are still slaves of their desire to drink. So that proved my point. It may appear they are in control, but they're not, thus they aren't free.

#3: Liberalism needs a strong state for it to flourish. B/c traditional institutions (i.e. family, church) have now dissipated, so people look to the state for the security they desperate crave, thus making the state far more powerful. To truly get a smaller government, we need more institutions to foster that security people crave. If that makes sense.

 

[Slartibartfast]

#1: Liberalism doesn't support the idea of a growing culture, it supports the idea of homogenization. To "liberate the individual", ALL traditions would have to be erased or changed. The past would have to be erased. For example, the idea of the family fostering all moral teachings unto the children was considered "arbitrary constraint", so we shifted away from that to allowing the state to teach us all the morals, etc.

Whatever definition you are using its not mine and therefore I will not debate it because I don't know what it is nor if I believe in it. I said what I said. Either argue with me or you can continue arguing with yourself.

#2: Functional alcoholics are still slaves of their desire to drink. So that proved my point. It may appear they are in control, but they're not, thus they aren't free.

Nope, they are free. They can get up, go to work, make choices, have consequences, etc. It may not be fun or easy, but they are still free even in that less than optimal condition. The alcohol does not stop them from having a functioning brain unless they achieve a state of dementia (which can happen).

 

[Wayne Jr]

That's beside the point

The point is, people joint the military solely on getting a free education

Not... because of Patriotism

So you're saying that people take a job based on, at least in part, for its benefits package?

Wow, I've never heard of anyone doing THAT before :?: :doh :lol:

 

[Luther]

What an American is a matter of individual opinion though.

I think it has more to do with what our Founders/writers of our constitution believed

Those guys who started it all(wink)

 

[Highlanders]

While trying to discuss subjects with Americans it becomes very difficult because you don't want to deliberately hurt people, we all have our sensitivities.
But I have been reading some very disturbing news.

Many Americans sons have been killed and injured in the past few days in Iraq, and nothing of the attacks on any western news outlets.
I understand that two separate American camps have been hit with rockets. At least 14 dead, many more seriously injured.
The American military refused to leave when asked by the Iraqi government so the American soldiers and military civilians are now valid targets.

 

[Luther]

So you're saying that people take a job based on, at least in part, for its benefits package?

Wow, I've never heard of anyone doing THAT before :?: :doh :lol:

Come on guy... You don't understand human nature by now?

Why do you think there are so many minorities in the military?

Answer: Because they have nothing else better going for them

EDUCATION

 

[marke]

Your thoughts?

Being an American is being thankful to God for the great blessings and benefits we have received at His good hand because of the freedoms our forefathers vouchsafed in the Constitution when they established America as a free republic under God.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I think it has more to do with what our Founders/writers of our constitution believed

Those guys who started it all(wink)

Which founder though? Hamilton and Jefferson wanted very different things for example.

Honestly, I tend to see this type of question as a loaded one since it tends to be biased towards anti-federalist beliefs and doesn't take into account the founder's points of view as a whole.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Come on guy... You don't understand human nature by now?

Why do you think there are so many minorities in the military?

Answer: Because they have nothing else better going for them

EDUCATION

The vast majority of the military is White: Demographics of the U.S. Military | Council on Foreign Relations

 

[Highlanders]

I think it has more to do with what our Founders believed

Those guys who started it all(wink)

Do you know, we in Scotland get free education, from kindergarten until university, it's free!

Please ask yourself, why should anyone's child be held back because of an accident of ones birth, or abject poverty, both created by government policies and government strategies.
Did you know, Gadaffi, would fly a specialist doctor from the other side of the world to help one of his subjects needing medical help!
He offered money, a dowry, for newly weds to buy a house.
He sent his people from all the tribes all over the world to be educated in the skills needed to help his nation develope, but instead, he was sodomised with a knife while the perpetrators of the murder were guarded by American military soldiers. And this was after fifty thousand Libyans were bombed, murdered to, according to who you speak to, to protect the Libyans from Gadaffi. Aye that's American logic for you, double barrel logic!

 

[Luther]

Being an American is being thankful to God for the great blessings and benefits we have received at His good hand because of the freedoms our forefathers vouchsafed in the Constitution when they established America as a free republic under God.

But Remember Marke...

"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are ready to defend it"

- Daniel Webster

 

[Luther]

Which founder though? Hamilton and Jefferson wanted very different things for example.

Honestly, I tend to see this type of question as a loaded one since it tends to be biased towards anti-federalist beliefs and doesn't take into account the founder's points of view as a whole.

Especially the Book worm Madison(Main author) who studied other civilizations demise

 

[Slartibartfast]

Especially the Book worm Madison(Main author) who studied other civilizations demise

Ok, please state what you think Hamilton's position is, I still find this conversation a bit nebulous and I am not sure where you are going with it, sorry.

 

[Luther]

The vast majority of the military is White: Demographics of the U.S. Military | Council on Foreign Relations

The vast majority of the military is White

Yes i Know and my point wasn't limited to just minorites

Also,

As the country has become more racially and ethnically diverse, so has the U.S. military. Racial and ethnic minority groups made up 40% of Defense Department active-duty military in 2015, up from 25% in 1990. (In 2015, 44% of all Americans ages 18 to 44 were racial or ethnic minorities.)

6 facts about the U.S. military's changing demographics | Pew Research Center

40% is a lot closer to 1/2 than its not.

 

[Highlanders]

The vast majority of the military is White: Demographics of the U.S. Military | Council on Foreign Relations

Perhaps you might see that, but here there are very few coloured people. But when I see American full time military, there are certainly more fodder than white people. Mind you, those white people will probably be in the NCOs or Sergeants or Officers mess.
That would be my observations.
You cannot believe a word of American military press releases..... an example would be Italy. According to military press releases there are two American military bases in Italy, but if you count Africom, an illegal America mercenary arm, with includes the coalition of the unwilling, American NATO bases, American mercenary bases, there are over one hundred American bases in Italy alone.
But..... your a peace loving country.....

 

[Luther]

Ok, please state what you think Hamilton's position is, I still find this conversation a bit nebulous and I am not sure where you are going with it, sorry.

I stated what the position was for our" Father of our constitution"

Oh please....(LOL)

 

[Slartibartfast]

I stated what the position was for our" Father of our constitution"

Oh please....(LOL)

Please restate it then. I am not following you.

 

[Luther]

Please restate it then. I am not following you.

Simple

Our Founders(Including Madison) knew it was up to us for our Gov/country to last

It was up to us to have a virtuous citizenry which we DO NOT HAVE

 

[Slartibartfast]

Simple

Our Founders(Including Madison) knew it was up to us for our Gov/country to last

It was up to us to have a virtuous citizenry which we DO NOT HAVE

Ahh ok, thank you. And I agree, we have lost much of our virtue, at least in the older generation. I do see signs of the younger generation, having grown up through 9/11, the 2008 crisis, the lack of affordable houses/college, etc to be more willing to do the hard work.

But that is how it goes, weak people create tough times and tough times create strong people.

Technology makes us live easier lives and thus reduces the need to be strong and virtuous over generations, but social factors right now point to the next generation being a strong one.

 

[Highlanders]

Then consider Greece, every Greek military base is open for the American military.
Then consider Turkey, and all the Turkish military bases America has on its soil, then Iraq, which is presently murdering American soldiers still left there. And now Syria... Israel eye, Americans send as fodder for use of and the protection of the IDF by Israel.
They Israel lite the fuse, now they are trying to use there drones to stop Hezbollah seeking revenge for the murder by Israel of one Hezbollah soldier.
Even I know, the cowardly IDF aren't shooting defenceless children anymore, they aren't killing defenceless old men and women, they are hiding.... cowardly in there holes, because they know, Hezbollah are going to come for them, no quarter given or taken. They will pay the prices for murdering Hezbollah people in Syria with American missiles paid for by the American tax payer.
One day... those Americans in Israel eye... will pay the price, in a country who lit a fuse and hid behind your sons.
You're sons your choice.