What Is Israel's Real Goal?

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

OK, I've taken another look at this thread. 1) The personal attacks continue. The next one receives consequences, regardless of who makes it. 2) The Israeli genocide and ethnic cleansing comments are thiny veiled hate speech as they are indirectly aimed at Israeli Jews. Some of the claims made here, are outrageous. It stops now or some people's posting priveleges will be suspended or revoked. 3) The nasty anti-Muslim statements also must cease. You want to post facts, be my guest. You want to insult an entire group of people, go to the Basement, go to a different forum, or don't post at all. 4) Don't think that by saying you are anti-Israel you get a pass on not being anti-Jew. Again, thinly veiled as it may be, many of these posts reek of ethnic aggression. There are ways to show disagreement with Israeli policies without showing ethnic aggression. Some people post like this. Many do not. For those of you who do not, follow the directions I outlined in #3. I understand this is an emotional topic. That doesn't excuse some of the behavior I've seen here. It stops now.

 

[MSgt]

If I was an anti-semite then I would profess it outwright. Like my thinking of the vast majority of posters such as yourself as deluded or just plain sly wankers who try weally weally hard to make those who do not follow your way of thinking as "anti-semites".

No, I don't think so. Your use of the word "genocide" tells us that you are either ignorant of its meaning or you are an anti-Semite bent on using the worst word you can think of. I will give you two definitions.


Genocide = the deliberate and systematic extermination...


Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

I don't care why you feel the need to describe the situation as genocide. That would be a personal issue for you. However, you are very transparent and I can prove it. With clear and internationally recognized examples like Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Darfur, in which the majority of the world remained(s) absolutely silent unless they were(are) taking time to shed a few crocodile tears in front of cameras, plenty of individuals are appear to be fixed on labeling Israelites as genocidal monsters.

Well, I don't see Palesintinians being exterminated. I do however see individuals who are willing to excuse any responsibility away from them to raise them up to the level of the Rwandans, Sudanese, Native Americans, and the Jews (Holocaust). Something tells me that if the Palestinians were in this situation against their fellow Arabs (like countless are throughout the Middle East) and not Jews, you wouldn't even whisper about it.

And by the way....

Insults come in many cultures. British slang isn't excused.

 

[Red_Dave]

No, I don't think so. Your use of the word "genocide" tells us that you are either ignorant of its meaning or you are an anti-Semite bent on using the worst word you can think of. I will give you two definitions.


Genocide = the deliberate and systematic extermination...


Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

I don't care why you feel the need to describe the situation as genocide. That would be a personal issue for you. However, you are very transparent and I can prove it. With clear and internationally recognized examples like Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Darfur, in which the majority of the world remained(s) absolutely silent unless they were(are) taking time to shed a few crocodile tears in front of cameras, plenty of individuals are appear to be fixed on labeling Israelites as genocidal monsters.

Well, I don't see Palesintinians being exterminated. I do however see individuals who are willing to excuse any responsibility away from them to raise them up to the level of the Rwandans, Sudanese, Native Americans, and the Jews (Holocaust). Something tells me that if the Palestinians were in this situation against their fellow Arabs (like countless are throughout the Middle East) and not Jews, you wouldn't even whisper about it.

And by the way....

Insults come in many cultures. British slang isn't excused.

So if i accused the Brittish government of genocide in Ireland would i be anti-saxon? I the issue here is that posters are being punished on the basis of what sentiment the moderators *belive* is *behind* what they say. Surely theres room for error here? Why not moderate what people are saying rather then why you belive they are saying it? The term genocide may be melodramtic but thats not the same as anti-semitism:roll:

 

[MSgt]

So if i accused the Brittish government of genocide in Ireland would i be anti-saxon? I the issue here is that posters are being punished on the basis of what sentiment the moderators *belive* is *behind* what they say. Surely theres room for error here? Why not moderate what people are saying rather then why you belive they are saying it? The term genocide may be melodramtic but thats not the same as anti-semitism:roll:

1) You are not a MOD.

2) You do not see the repeat offenders that get their wrist slapped before we finally have to pull back the reigns.

3) The use of the word "genocide" to describe something other than genocide is a tactic. It's not a matter of what we "believe he said." He plainly stated it.

4) You are in violation of rule 6a. "If there are any concerns over a moderators actions, please address a private message (PM) to vauge or the moderator in question. Your feedback and concerns are very valuable to the success of this board. Each and every PM will be read and investigated."

I suggest that you accept that you don't know the full story and keep your comments about Moderator action where it belongs.

Moderator's Warning:

Consider this a wrist slap.

 

[Vader]

Professor Gardener,

It is not baseless...infact, it has more base than false branding of makhno as an anti-semite.

Oh geeze! Not this again :shock:

:doh

 

[Vader]

Surely thats a problem on *both* sides though? The isrealis involved in the destruction of palestinian olive groves obviously have some issue with the right of the palestinans to exist as individuals, let alone as a state.

There have been nasty acts committed by both sides; however, it should be noted that most of the violence starts with Palestine and ends with Palestinians whining about Israel's retaliation.

The olive grove incident was unfortunate and shouldn't have happened. Of course, the Palestinians shouldn't have elected a terrorist group to lead them either.

Again, good point.

:mrgreen:

 

[Makhno]

There have been nasty acts committed by both sides; however, it should be noted that most of the violence starts with Palestine and ends with Palestinians whining about Israel's retaliation.

You don't seriously believe that all of Israel's acts are either retaliation or premtive, do you?

 

[Makhno]

Ahem, so , what is Israel's main goal for the OT today, peace through settlement? Or peace by actions meant to bring about the removal of the population?

I see the continuous construction of settelments* and harrasment of the population as pointing towards the latter.

*I mean, if they were looking for peace through settelment, it would obviously be foolish to keep doing this.

 

[AcePylut]

If Israel's goal was "land expansion", they'd have never given back the Sinia Peninsula.

If the "palestinian" people's goal was peace, they would have voted for a gov't that would recognize the right of Israel to exist... as expressely stated by UN Resolution 242 (the so-called "'67 Borders" argument).

"(ii)Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;


So when every state in the region recognizes Israel's right to EXIST, then you can come back with griping about "occupied" territories. Until then, arguing that Israel is "taking" land, is merely hypocrisy. Until then, Israel can "occupy" to their hearts content, to defend her people against the genocide her enemies wish to impose upon her, as it's clear that the problem here is the Palestininans and those muslim nations throughout the region, and their refusal to abide by UN Resolution 242 by recognizing Israel's right to exist.

 

[AcePylut]

Ahem, so , what is Israel's main goal for the OT today, peace through settlement? Or peace by actions meant to bring about the removal of the population?

Neither.

The goal is defense against the annihilation of all it's people, that the palestinians wish to impose upon Israel, as proven by their election of a gov't who's charter says:

Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: “Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty.”

----

Notice how they are fighitng against JEWS, not "Israeli's".

----

Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The ‘ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries. That invasion had begun overtaking this area following the defeat of the Crusader armies by Salah a-Din el Ayyubi. The Crusaders had understood that they had no way to vanquish the Muslims unless they prepared the grounds for that with an ideological invasion which would confuse the thinking of Muslims, revile their heritage, discredit their ideals, to be followed by a military invasion. That was to be in preparation for the Imperialist invasion, as in fact [General] Allenby acknowledged it upon his entry to Jerusalem: “Now, the Crusades are over.” General Gouraud stood on the tomb of Salah a-Din and declared: “We have returned, O Salah-a-Din!” Imperialism has been instrumental in boosting the ideological invasion and deepening its roots, and it is still pursuing this goal. All this had paved the way to the loss of Palestine. We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise. It includes Islamic holy sites such as the Aqsa Mosque, which is inexorably linked to the Holy Mosque as long as the Heaven and earth will exist, to the journey of the Messenger of Allah, be Allah’s peace and blessing upon him, to it, and to his ascension from it. “Dwelling one day in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. The place of the whip of one among you in Paradise is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. [God’s] worshiper’s going and coming in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it.” (Told by Bukhari, Muslim Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja) I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).


---

So there you go... assault and kill assault and kill assault and kill, the Jews.

That's what Israel's goal is. Survival.

 

[Makhno]

If Israel's goal was "land expansion", they'd have never given back the Sinia Peninsula.

If the "palestinian" people's goal was peace, they would have voted for a gov't that would recognize the right of Israel to exist... as expressely stated by UN Resolution 242 (the so-called "'67 Borders" argument).

"(ii)Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;


So when every state in the region recognizes Israel's right to EXIST, then you can come back with griping about "occupied" territories. Until then, arguing that Israel is "taking" land, is merely hypocrisy. Until then, Israel can "occupy" to their hearts content, to defend her people against the genocide her enemies wish to impose upon her, as it's clear that the problem here is the Palestininans and those muslim nations throughout the region, and their refusal to abide by UN Resolution 242 by recognizing Israel's right to exist.

OK well here's what I wanted to say,

Most Arab states do recognize Israel, including the Arab League. In fact in 2002 Saudi Arabia made a peace plan that was backed unanimously by the AL. A peace plan that US-Israel ignored. Now if Israel's policy wasn't land expantion then they wouldn't have been in the OT for so long, nor would they have made it such a brutal occupation, nor would they build settelments, which are obviously a barrier to peace.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Great posts, AcePylut.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

You don't seriously believe that all of Israel's acts are either retaliation or premtive, do you?

Hmmm...I would describe all Israel's military acts as either retalitory or preemptive. Other behaviors? Not sure. Though, the building of settlements in the West Bank does not conform to the Roadmap for Peace, I do not see it as 'expansionist' in the way that 'expansionist' has been presented. It is one Israeli behavior I do not support at this time.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

OK well here's what I wanted to say,

Most Arab states do recognize Israel, including the Arab League. In fact in 2002 Saudi Arabia made a peace plan that was backed unanimously by the AL. A peace plan that US-Israel ignored. Now if Israel's policy wasn't land expantion then they wouldn't have been in the OT for so long, nor would they have made it such a brutal occupation, nor would they build settelments, which are obviously a barrier to peace.

Save for the fact that everytime the Israeli's trade land for peace they are rewarded with greater and more brutal attacks from the Islamic Fascist scum.

 

[AcePylut]

OK well here's what I wanted to say,

Most Arab states do recognize Israel, including the Arab League. In fact in 2002 Saudi Arabia made a peace plan that was backed unanimously by the AL. A peace plan that US-Israel ignored. Now if Israel's policy wasn't land expantion then they wouldn't have been in the OT for so long, nor would they have made it such a brutal occupation, nor would they build settelments, which are obviously a barrier to peace.

Untrue. TWO arab states recognize Israel. Egypt, and Jordan. Iran and their proxy military Hizballah aren't part of the Arab league. Hama's rejected the Saudi Initiative.

Israel didn't ignore it:

"Israel views positively every initiative aimed at arriving at peace and normalization. In this respect, the Saudi step is an important one, but it is liable to founder if terrorism is not stopped. We cannot, of course, ignore the problematic aspects which arose at the Beirut Summit and the harsh and rejectionist language used by some of the speakers.
It is also clear that the details of every peace plan must be discussed directly between Israel and the Palestinians, and to make this possible, the Palestinian Authority must put an end to terror, the horrifying expression of which we witnessed just last night in Netanya." Shimon Peres.


Palestinian Authority says they accept it, then send more suicide bombers into Israel. Proving once again, you can't trust any arab-muslim state to honor any agreement.

 

[MSgt]

This entire issue of peace between the two parties hinges on a measure of trust. Given the military power and American backing and the considerable restraint shown by Israelis over decades of cautious existence, they have proven that they can co-exist and that they do not seek aggression.

Now what has the Muslim Middle East proven? Who parked an internationally recognized militant terrorist organization on Lebanon's southern border? Who continually launches rockets into Israeli cities killing Jews, Christians, and Muslims? Who has launched operations of offensives with armies coming from a multiple of nations from the north, south, east, and west? Now it is true that the past is in the past. And that we have recently seen Saudi Arabia exercise a measure of diplomatic table manners and Egypt's and Jordan's military backed off long ago. But what of the fundamentalism Saudi Arabia still funds throughout the region and beyond? And what of the resentment, rage, and hate that exists in hundreds of millions of Muslims who hang on every word spoken by zealot Clerics, Mullahs, and heads of states (Ahmenadejad, Saddam, al-Assad)?

It seems to me that no matter what Israel's critics have to say about Israeli policies over the course of 60 years of defense (no country is perfect), they have proven to be more susceptable to peace than the other. This Muslim civilization has to start trying to prove that it can be trusted. Isreal has a responsibility towards Israelis. And nothing so far has suggested that it can let its guard down.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

OK well here's what I wanted to say,

Most Arab states do recognize Israel, including the Arab League. In fact in 2002 Saudi Arabia made a peace plan that was backed unanimously by the AL. A peace plan that US-Israel ignored. Now if Israel's policy wasn't land expantion then they wouldn't have been in the OT for so long, nor would they have made it such a brutal occupation, nor would they build settelments, which are obviously a barrier to peace.

In bold. Untrue. The only Arab countries that recognize Israel are Egypt, Jordon, and Mauritania. The Beirut Summit that you talk of did nothing of the sort. It placed conditions, that if Israel met, the Arab states would then recognize Israel. It is interesting that the Arabs demand that Israle fulfill their part of UN 242, yet refuse to fulfill their part unless Israel does. Hypocrites. Israel's reaction to the conference, itself, was positive...except for the fact that Hamas had enacted the Netanya homicide bombing the morning of the Peace conference (I believe) in order to derail the initiatve, and this was never mentioned or addressed at the conference. Doesn't show much initiative in recognizing and condemning violence, especially at a 'peace' conference. Btw, nothing has come of the initiative, and recognition of Israel amongst Arab nations has not changed.

Now I'm not sure, Makhmo, whether this was an oversight on your part, or intentional falsification/spin. If the former, please check your information...and yes, I know, everyone makes mistakes. If the latter, I'd be careful. This can be construed as hate speech.

Sources:
Beirut Summit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
News: Occupied Palestinian Territory, Text of Arab peace initiative adopted at Beirut summit
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3363991,00.html

As for the remainder of your post, I think that the 'expansionist' notion has been debunked quite well.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

AcePylut got it first. Guess that's what I get for typing slow.

 

[Vader]

You don't seriously believe that all of Israel's acts are either retaliation or premtive, do you?

Yes, I do.

The Palestinians didn't really exist as "Palestinians" until after the 6 day war. They are essentially Jordanians and Egpytians that were left behind by Egypt and Jordan after the war.

They conceived in hate and trained their children from birth that suicide is a good thing. This is a HUGE fudenmental failing in muslim society, which has been propagated by radicalists who then use it as a tool for turning ordinary citizens into suicide-murderers.

As such, the Palestinians constantly violate peace agreements, murder Israeli citizens, launch Qasam rockets into Israel. They do this while continuosly indoctrinating their children to be haters.

Essentially, the Palestinians love hate Jews, Americans, and non-Islamics more than they love their own children. As such, these people have no problem sending their 9 year-olds into Israel wearing a suicide vests. It's a disgusting mind set created by a disgusting group of religous brainwashers.

This is why I have ZERO sympathy for the Palestinians and the other arab nations that commit the same heinous acts against their own people.

Morever, I realize you're a Sunni, and I realize that your religous leaders have bred the hate and lies (which they have the nerve to call the truth) into you.

I don't blame you for not having been told the truth by your parents and/or religous leaders; however, I DO blame you for continuing to believe the hypocritical nonsense spewed by those who run your church. You live in a free society and you have access to the truth...yet you choose to believe the lies told by those who, like yourself, were bred in lies and indoctrinated from birth to loathe and dispise Jews, Americans, and non-muslims of any sort.

You should talk to AcePylut .... he can help you find the path.

Be well.

:mrgreen: