What is heaven?

[yobarnacle]

My favorite parable is the parable of the talents.

Those who are faithfull over a FEW things in this life, will be given GREAT responsibilities in the next.

All sleep till judgement day. None arrive ahead of time.

sorry catholics, praying to dead saints isn't scriptural.

As to what we'll be doing in heaven?

it IS a mystery.

But there are hints like the talents parable.

another, goshin quoted, we were created a little lower than angels but will be raised HIGHER than angels.

The clearest hint is we are children of God, the same as Christ is the Son of God. He is the first born and heir.

But we are all also God's children.

Children mature into adults like their parents, right?

Children of God become....?

Also

Genesis 3:22
King James Version
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[nota bene]

My favorite parable is the parable of the talents.

Those who are faithfull over a FEW things in this life, will be given GREAT responsibilities in the next.

All sleep till judgement day. None arrive ahead of time.

sorry catholics, praying to dead saints isn't scriptural.

As to what we'll be doing in heaven?

it IS a mystery.

But there are hints like the talents parable.

another, goshin quoted, we were created a little lower than angels but will be raised HIGHER than angels.

The clearest hint is we are children of God, the same as Christ is the Son of God. He is the first born and heir.

But we are all also God's children.

Children mature into adults like their parents, right?

Children of God become....?

Also

Genesis 3:22
King James Version
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Then what's your take on "the communion of saints"?

 

[yobarnacle]

Then what's your take on "the communion of saints"?

John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] who is in heaven."


I can not find Communion of saints mentioned in the scriptures.

itis part of the catholic Creed.

Different protestant groups have differing opinions:
Communion of saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But fundamentalist Christians speak where the Bible speaks, remain silent where the Bible is silent, and place NO credence in man made creeds.

I suspect this is contrary to your beliefs, and my intention is not to offend you.

1 Thessalonians 4:13

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep [died], lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).



so, by scripture, Only Jesus has ascended to heaven, and Christians who died 'sleep", and we will ALL get there together on the same future day.

I like to imagine when I die, it will seem a second later I open my eyes on the last day.

like when I was a child, and morning followed my closing my eyes seemingly an instant later. I was oblivious to the night hours passing, likewise, I'll be oblivious to the eons passing. or whatever the years between my death and Christ's 2nd coming!

 

[American]

Of course there is. What do you think, that God is some kind of sick Power junkie? No!

If he is, you better start praying, buddy.

 

[American]

John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] who is in heaven."


I can not find Communion of saints mentioned in the scriptures.

itis part of the catholic Creed.

Different protestant groups have differing opinions:
Communion of saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But fundamentalist Christians speak where the Bible speaks, remain silent where the Bible is silent, and place NO credence in man made creeds.

I suspect this is contrary to your beliefs, and my intention is not to offend you.

1 Thessalonians 4:13

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep [died], lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).



so, by scripture, Only Jesus has ascended to heaven, and Christians who died 'sleep", and we will ALL get there together on the same future day.

I like to imagine when I die, it will seem a second later I open my eyes on the last day.

like when I was a child, and morning followed my closing my eyes seemingly an instant later. I was oblivious to the night hours passing, likewise, I'll be oblivious to the eons passing. or whatever the years between my death and Christ's 2nd coming!

People who think their dead relatives are with God, are just having a pleasant thought about them. They are really not with God, yet.

 

[nota bene]

The Apostles Creed is used by Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Congregationalists, and Lutherans as well as Roman Catholics. Just FYI.

 

[Grand Mal]

Exactly. The ability to love others, and not be trapped in the self, is heaven. That's why Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is within us.

Heaven? bah.

"A man lives in Tao like a fish swims in water."
-Chung Tsu-

 

[Andalublue]

John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] who is in heaven."


I can not find Communion of saints mentioned in the scriptures.

itis part of the catholic Creed.

Different protestant groups have differing opinions:
Communion of saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But fundamentalist Christians speak where the Bible speaks, remain silent where the Bible is silent, and place NO credence in man made creeds.

I suspect this is contrary to your beliefs, and my intention is not to offend you.

1 Thessalonians 4:13

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep [died], lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).



so, by scripture, Only Jesus has ascended to heaven, and Christians who died 'sleep", and we will ALL get there together on the same future day.

I like to imagine when I die, it will seem a second later I open my eyes on the last day.

like when I was a child, and morning followed my closing my eyes seemingly an instant later. I was oblivious to the night hours passing, likewise, I'll be oblivious to the eons passing. or whatever the years between my death and Christ's 2nd coming!

I have no pony in this race as I'm not a Christian and don't believe in gods, angels, or prophets, but this post of yours was very well argued. I like the sleep analogy too. It almost makes me wish that the idea of the human soul was real. :thumbs:

 

[yobarnacle]

I have no pony in this race as I'm not a Christian and don't believe in gods, angels, or prophets, but this post of yours was very well argued. I like the sleep analogy too. It almost makes me wish that the idea of the human soul was real. :thumbs:

Do you believe in national spirit? Team spirit? school spirit? These are IDEA spirits. An IDEA of the organization and what it represents.
Do you believe words and ideas have power, often beyond the expectations of the utterer? For good and to injure?
ideas are nearly immortal. They are as new and fresh to the student who hears it for the 1st time, as to the original thinker millennia past.
And these are man's words and ideas.
so if God can create the universe with a few words, "let it be", His ideas are MUCH more powerful too. And if He remembers the "idea" of my individual personae, I'll live forever in the eternal mind of God. He promised to remember me if I ask him and remember Him.

Hope this convinces you! It's my best, poor as it is. God forgive me for my inadequacy.

bueno suerte Senor

 

[Andalublue]

Do you believe in national spirit? Team spirit? school spirit? These are IDEA spirits. An IDEA of the organization and what it represents.
Do you believe words and ideas have power, often beyond the expectations of the utterer? For good and to injure?
ideas are nearly immortal. They are as new and fresh to the student who hears it for the 1st time, as to the original thinker millennia past.
And these are man's words and ideas.
so if God can create the universe with a few words, "let it be", His ideas are MUCH more powerful too. And if He remembers the "idea" of my individual personae, I'll live forever in the eternal mind of God. He promised to remember me if I ask him and remember Him.

Hope this convinces you! It's my best, poor as it is. God forgive me for my inadequacy.

bueno suerte Senor

I believe that you sincerely believe the teachings of your faith. It happens not to be mine. I do not believe that a single, omnipotent god created the universe. I guess it's possible that it happened that way, I simply don't know and cannot know and don't find it useful to pinder on unanswerable questions.

I completely agree with your assumption of the power of words. They have an awesome ability to resonate through the ages. Their karmic effects are real. Ideas too. Are you saying that eternal souls are the words and ideas of a person residing for all time with god, and not independent surviving consciousness? If not, I'm not 100% sure what you are driving at.

Peace eace

 

[DDD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvvTOzzQBE

 

[yobarnacle]

I believe that you sincerely believe the teachings of your faith. It happens not to be mine. I do not believe that a single, omnipotent god created the universe. I guess it's possible that it happened that way, I simply don't know and cannot know and don't find it useful to pinder on unanswerable questions.

I completely agree with your assumption of the power of words. They have an awesome ability to resonate through the ages. Their karmic effects are real. Ideas too. Are you saying that eternal souls are the words and ideas of a person residing for all time with god, and not independent surviving consciousness? If not, I'm not 100% sure what you are driving at.

Peace eace

I'm not driving at anything.

You don't believe in your immortal soul.

I hoped to draw upon concepts you DO believe in, and maybe help you realize you DO have an immortal soul.

I'm not preaching a religion or proselytizing.

If I knew greek philosophy better I'd use that.

Anyway, how was Jesus born to God? Not the virgin birth of the man Jesus, but the God Jesus?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus was born from the mouth of God. Spoken into existence.

If God can create another God (Jesus) with a word, He can make ME immortal as easily.
And YOU!

As to the existence of a Creator, in science, Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation is most probably correct.

TADA! God did it!

That fellow standing behind and looking out of the windows that are your eyes?
That's the REAL you.

I'm 20 years old looking out of 65 year old windows.
I certainly FEEL more permanent than this creaking body!

 

[Andalublue]

I'm not driving at anything.

You don't believe in your immortal soul.

I hoped to draw upon concepts you DO believe in, and maybe help you realize you DO have an immortal soul.

Okay, that's what I meant when I said 'driving at'; what you were trying to put across. I see that's what you were trying to put across.

I'm not preaching a religion or proselytizing.

I didn't think you were, and I'm grateful for that.

Anyway, how was Jesus born to God? Not the virgin birth of the man Jesus, but the God Jesus?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus was born from the mouth of God. Spoken into existence.

If God can create another God (Jesus) with a word, He can make ME immortal as easily.
And YOU!

As to the existence of a Creator, in science, Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation is most probably correct.

TADA! God did it!

Simpler still, no one did it, because 'it' is nothing. If you believe that God is eternal, isn't it just as simple to assume 'creation' is eternal, i.e. requires no genesis. If the universe requires a creator, how come the creator requires no creator?

 

[yobarnacle]

Okay, that's what I meant when I said 'driving at'; what you were trying to put across. I see that's what you were trying to put across.

I didn't think you were, and I'm grateful for that.


Simpler still, no one did it, because 'it' is nothing. If you believe that God is eternal, isn't it just as simple to assume 'creation' is eternal, i.e. requires no genesis. If the universe requires a creator, how come the creator requires no creator?

Because everything physical, tangible, changes. rusts, rots, evaporates, ect.
science says it's not destroyed only changed. But it isn't permanent, because it changes.

Only intangibles like ideas, can exist unchanged and pristine.
In my small mind, the SUBSTANCE of ideas, is the best I can imagine as the SUBSTANCE of God.

They and He are real and powerful and uncorruptible, and eternal.

So is my soul, the "idea" uniquely me.

I am glad to try and explain what I understand, but don't want to abuse your openness.

Maybe something I posted will give you imponderables to ponder over!
If nothing else, mental exercise is as healthy as physical exercise. It too makes us stronger!

 

[ecofarm]

I think heaven is success/progress in the future, after my death, that is far greater than what I imagine. I'll be a part of it by having contributed along the journey. I don't believe in consciousness after death, just a spirit/soul - our influence in the world, however small, goes on.

 

[Andalublue]

Because everything physical, tangible, changes. rusts, rots, evaporates, ect.
science says it's not destroyed only changed. But it isn't permanent, because it changes.

Only intangibles like ideas, can exist unchanged and pristine.
In my small mind, the SUBSTANCE of ideas, is the best I can imagine as the SUBSTANCE of God.

They and He are real and powerful and uncorruptible, and eternal.

So is my soul, the "idea" uniquely me.

I am glad to try and explain what I understand, but don't want to abuse your openness.

Maybe something I posted will give you imponderables to ponder over!
If nothing else, mental exercise is as healthy as physical exercise. It too makes us stronger!

Interesting stuff! I think that if that idea of the substance of God formed the substantive thesis of a theology, I might not have such a resistance to the idea of the eternal soul. Intangibles, such as The Four Noble Truths of the philosophy I practice can indeed be said to be eternal. That an intangible idea can be eternal is different from saying that an idea can be substantial and the substance of God. If it is substantial, is it not therefore tangible by definition? How can something be both intangible and substantial at the same time?

Further, if the idea of God is the substantial eternal aspect of his deity, how can he be conceived as an actor in the universe too? If only the intangible can be eternal, the active, omnipotent, interventionist God of scripture cannot be eternal, can he?

You've certainly given me food for thought, I hope I've responded in kind. Exchanges like this between different faiths always have the potential to be fascinating.

 

[yobarnacle]

Interesting stuff! I think that if that idea of the substance of God formed the substantive thesis of a theology, I might not have such a resistance to the idea of the eternal soul. Intangibles, such as The Four Noble Truths of the philosophy I practice can indeed be said to be eternal. That an intangible idea can be eternal is different from saying that an idea can be substantial and the substance of God. If it is substantial, is it not therefore tangible by definition? How can something be both intangible and substantial at the same time?

Further, if the idea of God is the substantial eternal aspect of his deity, how can he be conceived as an actor in the universe too? If only the intangible can be eternal, the active, omnipotent, interventionist God of scripture cannot be eternal, can he?

You've certainly given me food for thought, I hope I've responded in kind. Exchanges like this between different faiths always have the potential to be fascinating.

What are The Four Noble Truths please?

 

[yobarnacle]

Interesting stuff! I think that if that idea of the substance of God formed the substantive thesis of a theology, I might not have such a resistance to the idea of the eternal soul. Intangibles, such as The Four Noble Truths of the philosophy I practice can indeed be said to be eternal. That an intangible idea can be eternal is different from saying that an idea can be substantial and the substance of God. If it is substantial, is it not therefore tangible by definition? How can something be both intangible and substantial at the same time?

Further, if the idea of God is the substantial eternal aspect of his deity, how can he be conceived as an actor in the universe too? If only the intangible can be eternal, the active, omnipotent, interventionist God of scripture cannot be eternal, can he?

You've certainly given me food for thought, I hope I've responded in kind. Exchanges like this between different faiths always have the potential to be fascinating.

E=MCsquared is an idea which produced MUCH change, and it possessed no consciousness that we are aware of. Practically any idea you can recall, affected people and history and sometimes moved mountains.
A LIVING idea...self conscious and self motivating? Got to get my hip boots on here!
Bible says God is Love.

We all need and want love.
Ergo, we are hardwired to seek love. Seeking God! Best proof I know of as to His existence.

 

[Andalublue]

What are The Four Noble Truths please?

Truth #1 - Life is full of suffering
Truth #2 - The cause of that suffering is craving, desire and ignorance
Truth #3 - There can be an end to suffering for all people, here and now
Truth #4 - The way to achieve the end of suffering is the Middle Way and the Eightfold Path

Here's a better, fuller explanation.

 

[Andalublue]

E=MCsquared is an idea which produced MUCH change, and it possessed no consciousness that we are aware of. Practically any idea you can recall, affected people and history and sometimes moved mountains.
A LIVING idea...self conscious and self motivating? Got to get my hip boots on here!
Bible says God is Love.

We all need and want love.
Ergo, we are hardwired to seek love. Seeking God! Best proof I know of as to His existence.

Okay. That seems to be a bit of a pantheistic sort of approach where God IS creation, but isn't the creator of it. Saying that God is Love is not the same as saying that God made Love or that God gives Love. I think this appears to be taking us well away from Christian ideas of a personal, anthropomorphic God. Are you a Taoist, by any chance?

 

[yobarnacle]

Okay. That seems to be a bit of a pantheistic sort of approach where God IS creation, but isn't the creator of it. Saying that God is Love is not the same as saying that God made Love or that God gives Love. I think this appears to be taking us well away from Christian ideas of a personal, anthropomorphic God. Are you a Taoist, by any chance?

Nope.
Fundamentalist.

Anthropomorphic God?

I suppose some try to create God in THEIR image! LOL

God is creator, give a child a crayon, they'll create something. We create architecture, art, music, technology, ahh, man the creator. In His image.

mankind is capable of amazing acts of love and self sacrifice. in His image.
Man can be wrathful, in His image.
Ect. ect.
All that God is, man is a lesser example of. In his image.

Does God have arms and legs and curly or straight or black or blonde hair?

I don't believe so.

If we were physically like God, what about birth defects or amputees, no LONGER like god? And which race is He?

No. God isn't a physical being like our mortal bodies. Our spirit (souls) are like unto His. He is spirit. Eternal mind!

okay?

 

[Buck Ewer]

What is heaven?

A delusional fantasy.

 

[yobarnacle]

Truth #1 - Life is full of suffering
Truth #2 - The cause of that suffering is craving, desire and ignorance
Truth #3 - There can be an end to suffering for all people, here and now
Truth #4 - The way to achieve the end of suffering is the Middle Way and the Eightfold Path

Here's a better, fuller explanation.

I gave it a quick read and understood little of it. I'll read it more slowly with greater effort at understanding. First impression, not easily comprehended .

 

[Andalublue]

Nope.
Fundamentalist.

Anthropomorphic God?

I suppose some try to create God in THEIR image! LOL

God is creator, give a child a crayon, they'll create something. We create architecture, art, music, technology, ahh, man the creator. In His image.

mankind is capable of amazing acts of love and self sacrifice. in His image.
Man can be wrathful, in His image.
Ect. ect.
All that God is, man is a lesser example of. In his image.

Does God have arms and legs and curly or straight or black or blonde hair?

I don't believe so.

If we were physically like God, what about birth defects or amputees, no LONGER like god? And which race is He?

No. God isn't a physical being like our mortal bodies. Our spirit (souls) are like unto His. He is spirit. Eternal mind!

okay?

Well yes, that is what I'd think of as a description of an anthropomorphic God. So, I'm a bit confused. I can see how mind, in the form of intangible ideas, can be said to be eternal in one sense, and I can see how you can say that in the assertion, God Is Love you are equating the eternal quality of love with the concept of God. What I can't get my head around is the idea that a spiritual God can intervene in the finite, physical universe and yet be eternal. The idea that every creator requires a creator leads one back in infinite regression to.... nowhere, and nothing. What excellent concepts! If something is infinite and eternal then it really is nothing at all. That's what is known as Sunyata.

 

[yobarnacle]

Well yes, that is what I'd think of as a description of an anthropomorphic God. So, I'm a bit confused. I can see how mind, in the form of intangible ideas, can be said to be eternal in one sense, and I can see how you can say that in the assertion, God Is Love you are equating the eternal quality of love with the concept of God. What I can't get my head around is the idea that a spiritual God can intervene in the finite, physical universe and yet be eternal. The idea that every creator requires a creator leads one back in infinite regression to.... nowhere, and nothing. What excellent concepts! If something is infinite and eternal then it really is nothing at all. That's what is known as Sunyata.

want to get into quantum physics?
I know only a little.
But time isn't what we think it is.
neither is eternity.
They are merely dimensions in string theory.
And relative. my life has flown by, except for some moments in agony that seemed an eternity.
And God isn't subject to time.
not subject to anything, but master of all.

2 Peter 3:8–9 reads:

‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’