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What is good?

I'm a wheat or pale ale (not India) myself. The less fruit flavor the better. I'm pretty sure I'm past the age of it causing that sort of trouble.

Corn beers are not real beers and neither is old Milwakee or Pabst Blue Rribbon
Scotch like good beer is made with barley (other grains can be used as well) not corn.

Never CORN!!!!!!
 
You're saying that governments aren't harmful. This simply isn't true. In fact, they may be the most harmful entity in existence, especially to their own people. Research democide if you care to differ.

Can you show an anarchist society that has been less harmful than government, while providing the same or similar level of benefits?
 
Corn beers are not real beers and neither is old Milwakee or Pabst Blue Rribbon
Scotch like good beer is made with barley (other grains can be used as well) not corn.

Never CORN!!!!!!

I used Pabst, via north eastern trustie, to hipster snob in college (long time ago). So I guess I owe it despite being horrible swill. A friend got into craft beer a few years ago and saved me from common crap.
 
I used Pabst, via north eastern trustie, to hipster snob in college (long time ago). So I guess I owe it despite being horrible swill. A friend got into craft beer a few years ago and saved me from common crap.

You owe that friend so much!
 
Can you show an anarchist society that has been less harmful than government, while providing the same or similar level of benefits?

I'm not advocating an anarchist society for you. I'm only advocating anarchism for myself. My view doesn't affect you. But, yours does affect me...that's why it's immoral.
 
I'm not about to write a thesis for anyone here. I presented my notion of it as succinctly and objectively as possible in post 49.

If you can't tell us the central idea of that book, you don't understand it yourself. It only takes one sentence, and you've written several since. Since you didn't write the sentence, maybe that's the case.

Your post 49, while I appreciate the attempt, must be over my head. I don't understand the importance of motor cars nor chocolate bars. And, if those were just examples of the model, know that you've only described one axis (utility), and not the other.

The only thing I can guess about your moral philosophy is borrowing from Socrates in that which is useful is good. Am I at least on the right track?
 
If you can't tell us the central idea of that book, you don't understand it yourself. It only takes one sentence, and you've written several since. Since you didn't write the sentence, maybe that's the case.

Your post 49, while I appreciate the attempt, must be over my head. I don't understand the importance of motor cars nor chocolate bars. And, if those were just examples of the model, know that you've only described one axis (utility), and not the other.

The only thing I can guess about your moral philosophy is borrowing from Socrates in that which is useful is good. Am I at least on the right track?

Socrates did not say that which is useful is good.
 
Many of you believe that government is good; or that it's necessary to protect what is good; or that it is required for some greater good of society. But, what does good mean to you? If we are going to debate these subjects, it's important to know what each other means.

To you...what is good precisely? What is evil? What differentiates right from wrong? For the more critical thinkers, what exactly is your moral philosophy?

Righteousness is good. Wickedness is evil.
 
Is this a joke thread? What did you just say?

Socrates had what people considered an ugly nose. He said its beauty lied in its usefulness. My mistake was equating beauty with goodness in what he said about utility.
 
Socrates had what people considered an ugly nose. He said its beauty lied in its usefulness. My mistake was equating beauty with goodness in what he said about utility.


I am unaware of Socrates discussing his nose. Do you have a reference?
 
"My own eyes must be more beautiful, because they bulge out, and therefore I can see better. And by the same account my nose is more beautiful, because my nostrils flare out and so I can therefore gather in more smells."

https://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/characters/socrates_p7.html


Thanks. Checking it out now.

From what I have found out so far, your quoted text is not from Plato. Probably from Xenophon's Symposium 4.19, 5.5–7. It didn't sound like Plato.
 
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I would define good government to mean advocate for personal freedoms outlined by our laws, the general concensus of how the people want it to work after that, and to condemn and punish corruption in both itself and our business world.
 
If you can't tell us the central idea of that book, you don't understand it yourself. It only takes one sentence, and you've written several since. Since you didn't write the sentence, maybe that's the case.

Your post 49, while I appreciate the attempt, must be over my head. I don't understand the importance of motor cars nor chocolate bars. And, if those were just examples of the model, know that you've only described one axis (utility), and not the other.

The only thing I can guess about your moral philosophy is borrowing from Socrates in that which is useful is good. Am I at least on the right track?
Red:
You just keep thinking that.....

Anyone who bothered to click on the link and scroll would see immediately there's neither need for nor value in my (or anyone's)summarizing "the central idea" of the book.


Blue:
Cars and bars have nothing to do with it; they're merely the items that particular image has on the axes. They are analogues for choices one might make. I chose that image instead of the one I previously used because the "bars and cars" image explicitly presents production possibilities, whereas the other one I used doesn't. The elements on the elements on the axes are irrelevant. What's relevant for this discussion of "good vs. not good" are the curves, movements from one to the next, and the things that make movements possible and/or actually effect movements.

yce4cjs2
ric2.gif

Looking at what I said, one sees that it's an applied transformation of the economics notion of social welfare to identifying good behaviors.


  • The "production possibilities set" is the set of behaviors one can perform, thus also the thoughts one may have yielding/inspiring them. It's quite literally the body of things that can be thought of and done. In economics, yes, it's about what an economy can produce, but in applying the concept in a "good vs. not good" context, producing goods and services are but a subset of the body of behaviors/thoughts that can be performed or had.
  • The various curves represent the various mixes of behaviors one has chosen to perform, aka total utility[SUP]1[/SUP] (functional and emotional satisfaction; sure, usefulness is part of it, but it's not all of it, which is why I used the word utility and have been alluding to economics). Each curve that is "northeast of"/"higher than" one or more others represents one's having achieved more overall utility.
That which is good is that which expands the area of the possibilities set and/or that enables one to move from a "lower" curve to a "higher" one.

From the above, it's obvious that while an individual can derive more total utility from a host of things. For example:
  • Person A may endogenously construe s/he obtains more total utility from becoming enabled to help or actually help another person, or him-/herself.
  • Person B may endogenously construe s/he obtains more total utility from becoming enabled to harm or actually harming another person, or him-/herself.
Accordingly, there needs to be a way to determine whether the behavior thus enabled/undertaken is indeed good. The way to do that is to apply the same ideas described above to society as a whole. Behaviors individual members of a society take that expand the possibilities set and/or move society to a "higher" aggregate utility curve, i.e., that increase aggregate utility, are good behaviors/ideas. In contrast, those that reduce aggregate utility and/or that shrink the area of the possibilities set, though not necessarily evil[SUP]2[/SUP], are not good behaviors/ideas.


Pink and off-topic:
I sometimes wonder whether Socrates was even a real person. He's something of an early "Jesus figure," though with perhaps not quite as grand an ego for, AFAIK, he didn't declare himself a god incarnate: he's talked about, appears as a character, in writings of Plato, wherein he appears as the protagonist, Xenophon and Aristophanes, his "gospellers," as it were, yet, as far as we know, he didn't write a damn thing of his own. He's yet a font philosophy and wisdom who walked among men, shared his thoughts about the human condition and morality/ethics, and later acquiesced to his own demise.


Note:
  1. Obviously, utility itself isn't precisely measurable, but we can infer that X provides one with more or less utility than Y by comparing both to an exogenous to X and Y "thing" that is measurable (qualitatively or quantitatively) at the time one chooses or is considering to choose X over Y....hence one of the reasons for post 40's hyperlink to value theory and the ones for Bentham et al.
  2. Evil is nothing more than an extreme form of "not good."
 
Red:
You just keep thinking that.....

Anyone who bothered to click on the link and scroll would see immediately there's neither need for nor value in my (or anyone's)summarizing "the central idea" of the book.


Blue:
Cars and bars have nothing to do with it; they're merely the items that particular image has on the axes. They are analogues for choices one might make. I chose that image instead of the one I previously used because the "bars and cars" image explicitly presents production possibilities, whereas the other one I used doesn't. The elements on the elements on the axes are irrelevant. What's relevant for this discussion of "good vs. not good" are the curves, movements from one to the next, and the things that make movements possible and/or actually effect movements.

yce4cjs2
ric2.gif

Looking at what I said, one sees that it's an applied transformation of the economics notion of social welfare to identifying good behaviors.


  • The "production possibilities set" is the set of behaviors one can perform, thus also the thoughts one may have yielding/inspiring them. It's quite literally the body of things that can be thought of and done. In economics, yes, it's about what an economy can produce, but in applying the concept in a "good vs. not good" context, producing goods and services are but a subset of the body of behaviors/thoughts that can be performed or had.
  • The various curves represent the various mixes of behaviors one has chosen to perform, aka total utility[SUP]1[/SUP] (functional and emotional satisfaction; sure, usefulness is part of it, but it's not all of it, which is why I used the word utility and have been alluding to economics). Each curve that is "northeast of"/"higher than" one or more others represents one's having achieved more overall utility.
That which is good is that which expands the area of the possibilities set and/or that enables one to move from a "lower" curve to a "higher" one.

From the above, it's obvious that while an individual can derive more total utility from a host of things. For example:
  • Person A may endogenously construe s/he obtains more total utility from becoming enabled to help or actually help another person, or him-/herself.
  • Person B may endogenously construe s/he obtains more total utility from becoming enabled to harm or actually harming another person, or him-/herself.
Accordingly, there needs to be a way to determine whether the behavior thus enabled/undertaken is indeed good. The way to do that is to apply the same ideas described above to society as a whole. Behaviors individual members of a society take that expand the possibilities set and/or move society to a "higher" aggregate utility curve, i.e., that increase aggregate utility, are good behaviors/ideas. In contrast, those that reduce aggregate utility and/or that shrink the area of the possibilities set, though not necessarily evil[SUP]2[/SUP], are not good behaviors/ideas.


Pink and off-topic:
I sometimes wonder whether Socrates was even a real person. He's something of an early "Jesus figure," though with perhaps not quite as grand an ego for, AFAIK, he didn't declare himself a god incarnate: he's talked about, appears as a character, in writings of Plato, wherein he appears as the protagonist, Xenophon and Aristophanes, his "gospellers," as it were, yet, as far as we know, he didn't write a damn thing of his own. He's yet a font philosophy and wisdom who walked among men, shared his thoughts about the human condition and morality/ethics, and later acquiesced to his own demise.


Note:
  1. Obviously, utility itself isn't precisely measurable, but we can infer that X provides one with more or less utility than Y by comparing both to an exogenous to X and Y "thing" that is measurable (qualitatively or quantitatively) at the time one chooses or is considering to choose X over Y....hence one of the reasons for post 40's hyperlink to value theory and the ones for Bentham et al.
  2. Evil is nothing more than an extreme form of "not good."

I didn't think you'd list a textbook, because I didn't ask for possible models from a textbook. I asked what your criteria are. The closest I picked out of all that was: "that increase aggregate utility, are good behaviors/ideas." That's easy enough to understand. It didn't require umpteen posts, paragraphs, and recommended books.
 
I would define good government to mean advocate for personal freedoms outlined by our laws, the general concensus of how the people want it to work after that, and to condemn and punish corruption in both itself and our business world.

Freedoms aren't outlined by laws. Laws prohibit you from doing something, the opposite of freedom.
 
Cars and bars have nothing to do with it; they're merely the items that particular image has on the axes. They are analogues for choices one might make. I chose that image instead of the one I previously used because the "bars and cars" image explicitly presents production possibilities, whereas the other one I used doesn't. The elements on the elements on the axes are irrelevant. What's relevant for this discussion of "good vs. not good" are the curves, movements from one to the next, and the things that make movements possible and/or actually effect movements.


yce4cjs2
y9j23oek


Looking at what I said, one sees that it's an applied transformation of the economics notion of social welfare to identifying good behaviors.

  • The "production possibilities set" is the set of behaviors one can perform, thus also the thoughts one may have yielding/inspiring them. It's quite literally the body of things that can be thought of and done. In economics, yes, it's about what an economy can produce, but in applying the concept in a "good vs. not good" context, producing goods and services are but a subset of the body of behaviors/thoughts that can be performed or had.
  • The various curves represent the various mixes of behaviors one has chosen to perform, aka total utility[SUP]1[/SUP] (functional and emotional satisfaction; sure, usefulness is part of it, but it's not all of it, which is why I used the word utility and have been alluding to economics). Each curve that is "northeast of"/"higher than" one or more others represents one's having achieved more overall utility.
That which is good is that which expands the area of the possibilities set and/or that enables one to move from a "lower" curve to a "higher" one.


From the above, it's obvious that while an individual can derive more total utility from a host of things. For example:

  • Person A may endogenously construe s/he obtains more total utility from becoming enabled to help or actually help another person, or him-/herself.
  • Person B may endogenously construe s/he obtains more total utility from becoming enabled to harm or actually harming another person, or him-/herself.

Accordingly, there needs to be a way to determine whether the behavior thus enabled/undertaken is indeed good. The way to do that is to apply the same ideas described above to society as a whole. Behaviors individual members of a society take that expand the possibilities set and/or move society to a "higher" aggregate utility curve, i.e., that increase aggregate utility, are good behaviors/ideas. In contrast, those that reduce aggregate utility and/or that shrink the area of the possibilities set, though not necessarily evil[SUP]2[/SUP], are not good behaviors/ideas.


Notes:

  1. Obviously, utility itself isn't precisely measurable, but we can infer that X provides one with more or less utility than Y by comparing both to an exogenous to X and Y "thing" that is measurable (qualitatively or quantitatively) at the time one chooses or is considering to choose X over Y....hence one of the reasons for post 40's hyperlink to value theory and the ones for Bentham et al.
  2. Evil is nothing more than an extreme form of "not good."

...I asked what your criteria are. The closest I picked out of all that was: "that increase aggregate utility, are good behaviors/ideas." That's easy enough to understand. It didn't require umpteen posts, paragraphs, and recommended books.

  1. You asked for clarification of my statement in post 49.
  2. I gave it to you.
  3. I didn't solicit feedback, from you or anyone else.
  4. Upon reading the reply, you felt griped about it.


Blue:
I stated that criteria in post 49, and you asked me about "bars and cars."
For me, good is how I describe any behavior that shifts my total utility "up and to the right." On a societal level, it's any behavior that shifts the society's total utility "up and to the right." Anything that accomplishes that outcome is good.
-- Xelor, Post 49
That you asked informed me that you didn't at all realize that all I'd done was apply value theory and social welfare concepts to the determination of what behavior is/isn't good. I know you didn't realize that because had you, you'd have realized the curves and the green area were germane.

So, in response your inquiry, I explained post 49 to you on as basic a level as possible....something that wouldn't have been needed had you come to your own thread with the portfolio of familiarity with Blackwell's content.




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